Water Profile for Russian Imperial Stout

I'm fully equipped with every brewing salt there is and I'm brewing a big RIS at 38 SRM this weekend.

I know I need a lot of RA to combat the acid.

Should I be using a Dublin profile?

I don't tend to target a certain city anymore. I'd use the calculators to target your RA to the 38 SRM (though that correlation is in itself a bit of hand waving, but works for the most part). I'd also make sure your sulfate/chloride ratio is right. I'd make it balanced for an RIS I imagine, don't want to suppress the hops but they are not the star of the show either. Other than that I'd make sure you have enough calcium and magnesium for yeast health and there ya go

I have heard that for really dark beers you still shouldn't go for a ridiculously high RA, I can't find the reference where Palmer said that though.

Can't really find it, I wouldn't go over 250 RA though.

So far I've only tuned it to like 25 SRM because I can't keep my Na levels low if I go nuts with the baking soda and chalk goes too far on the Ca.

I have heard that for really dark beers you still shouldn't go for a ridiculously high RA, I can't find the reference where Palmer said that though.

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I actually heard him say it on a podcast just today -- Brewstrong Radio Water Chemistry IV (fourth of a series they did) http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/513

He said he wouldn't go over 250 for a dark beer, and for a really big imperial stout maybe 300.

IMO the whole series is well worth listening to.

Hmm, unless there is a way for you to remove calcium without removing carbonate I think you may want to just get rather close with your salt additions then just put some phosphate buffers in the mash to get you the rest of the way. I haven't had a lot of experience trying to make hard water, I have plenty if you want me to ship it to ya

Hi Bobby,
I had the same problem about a week ago when I did an oatmeal stout. I also heard that you don't want to go above an RA of 250 for the mash. I targeted 220 and my mash pH came out high actually, 5.6 (but I was using the cheap strips, so I take that with a grain of salt). I built my profile from distilled water, and here's what I did:

Mash Water Profile:
2.68 gallons total (100% distilled), 1 tsp. Chalk, 1/8 tsp. Calcium Chloride, 1/8 tsp. Epsom Salt, and 3/4 tsp. Baking Soda

Calcium - 83ppm
Magnesium - 5ppm
Sodium - 89ppm
Chloride - 20ppm
Sulfate - 22ppm
RA: 219
SRM: 23-28

Sparge with distilled water.

Salts added to the boil:
2 tsp. Chalk, 1/8 tsp. Calcium Chloride, 1/4 tsp. Epsom Salt, and 5/8 tsp. Baking Soda

Total Water Profile (6.15 gallons):
Calcium - 103ppm
Magnesium - 7ppm
Sodium - 71ppm
Chloride - 18ppm
Sulfate - 28ppm
RA: 191
SRM: 21-26

I was also concerned about the high sodium level and that I didn't have enough sulfate (Palmer says 50ppm is the minimum). It's difficult, because with the sodium relatively high, you want to keep the sulfate low to prevent a harsh bitterness.

I'm glad to say that I took a gravity sample last night after 9 days of fermentation. The beer was awesome. The hop presence was low (possibly due to the low sulfate level), but that was how I intended it to be per the recipe. No harsh bitterness at all.

Just wanted to give you my experience.

I appreciate the input. Since I'm using like 11 gallons of strike water, I really can't back out to distilled. Well I can, but I'm a cheapskate.

What do you guys think of this:

Starting Water:
Ca: 30 ppm
Mg: 10 ppm
Na: 28 ppm
Cl: 53 ppm
SO4: 15 ppm
HCO3: 73 ppm

Mash Vol: 11 gal
Dilution Rate: 0%

Adjustments:
CaCO3: 10 grams
CaSO4: 0 grams
CaCl2: 0 grams
MgSO4: 4 grams
NaHCO3: 10 grams
NaCl: 0 grams
HCL Acid: 0 ml
Lactic Acid: 0 ml

Results:
Ca: 126 ppm
Mg: 19 ppm
Na: 94 ppm
Cl: 53 ppm
SO4: 52 ppm
CaCO3: 321 ppm

RA: 219 (23 to 28 SRM)
Cl to SO4: 1.01 (Balanced)

Looks fine to me, 94 Na is not high enough to cause any issues

Sodium (Na+1)
Atomic Weight = 22.9
Equivalent Weight = 22.9
Brewing Range = 0-150 ppm.
Sodium can occur in very high levels, particularly if you use a salt-based (i.e. ion exchange) water softener at home. In general, you should never use softened water for mashing. You probably needed the calcium it replaced and you definitely don't need the high sodium levels. At levels of 70 - 150 ppm it rounds out the beer flavors, accentuating the sweetness of the malt. But above 200 ppm the beer will start to taste salty. The combination of sodium with a high concentration of sulfate ions will generate a very harsh bitterness. Therefore keep at least one or the other as low as possible, preferably the sodium.

Yeah, I backed off on the baking soda additions which of course brought the RA down too. I'm hoping it's enough to keep my mash pH over 5.

That looks good Bobby, just keep things like lactic acid and baking soda or star san around to adjust ph if necessary after you have added everything.

I did a porter recently that I over estimated and had a ph of 6.1 or something. A couple drops of lactic acid took care of it really quick. I have heard starsan would work too.

I keep some five star 5.2 around. The phosphate buffers won't change the ion concentrations that we are concerned with and if you are getting close by building your water, then you don't need to add much 5.2 to the mash if you are off by a bit.

Also when measured at mash temps I think the ideal PH is 5.4, I'd need to look that up to be sure though.

Hey water dudes
I also am brewing an Impy Stout this week ~ 55 SRM (on Sat, likely) and want to dial my water in. Using EZ Water spreadsheet, here's what I've come up with:

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 63.3
Mg: 23
Na: 93.5
Cl: 107
SO4: 202
HCO3: 135.4

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 43.5 / 30
Dilution Rate: 0%

RA (mash only): 52 (9 to 14 SRM)
Cl to SO4 (total water): 0.53 (Bitter)

Then, with my adjustments:
Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaCO3: 22 / 15
CaSO4: 0 / 0
CaCl2: 20 / 13
MgSO4: 0 / 0
NaHCO3: 25 / 17
NaCl: 0 / 0
HCL Acid: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid: 0 / 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 150 / 150
Mg: 23 / 23
Na: 135 / 135
Cl: 166 / 166
SO4: 202 / 202
CaCO3: 267 / 267

RA (mash only): 146 (17 to 22 SRM)
Cl to SO4 (total water): 0.82 (Balanced)

I can't figure out how to raise more RA into this water without jacking up Na or some of the other levels. Not sure if 0.82 is a high enough ratio either. Any one who can help please do! Thanks.

The way to handle this is to leave the CaC03 and NaHC03 out of the boil completely (uncheck the boxes). You'll see the Na and Ca drop in the overall batch. Now you can add more of it to the mash only and it will push the RA up. I'd only worry about getting it to about 225 and calling it a day.

Oh, I forgot to mention that you can also move the 20 grams of CaCl from the mash addition to the boil for a total of 33 grams. Since you only need the Cl in the overall flavor profile, it doesn't need to be in the mash where it's lowering RA.

Dude,
that's hella awesome. thanks.

Hey Guys,
brewing a Russian Imperial Stout this week, 63 SRM this weekend and want to dial my water in. Using EZ Water spreadsheet, here's what I've come up with:

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 8.9
Mg: 1
Na: 6.8
Cl: 4
SO4: 2
Alkalinity: 17.5

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 6 Gallons/3.5
Dilution Rate: 0%

RA (mash only): 228
Cl to SO4 (total water): 1.14 Balanced

Then, with my adjustments:
Adjustments (grams)
CaCO3: 6
CaSO4: .3
CaCl2: 4
MgSO4: 4
NaHCO3: 8
NaCl: 0


Mash Water Profile / Mash Water + Sparge Water profile (ppm):
Ca: 166 / 108
Mg: 17 / 11
Na: 103 / 68
Cl: 89 / 58
SO4: 78 / 50

RA (mash only): 228

My question is does everything look ok here and also what the Mash + Sparge Water Profile mean, because I know Palmer said don't do any additions to Sparge water because it is so minimal. Thanks brew guys and gals.

Adam78K said:

Hey Guys,
brewing a Russian Imperial Stout this week, 63 SRM this weekend and want to dial my water in. Using EZ Water spreadsheet, here's what I've come up with:

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 8.9
Mg: 1
Na: 6.8
Cl: 4
SO4: 2
Alkalinity: 17.5

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 6 Gallons/3.5
Dilution Rate: 0%

RA (mash only): 228
Cl to SO4 (total water): 1.14 Balanced

Then, with my adjustments:
Adjustments (grams)
CaCO3: 6
CaSO4: .3
CaCl2: 4
MgSO4: 4
NaHCO3: 8
NaCl: 0


Mash Water Profile / Mash Water + Sparge Water profile (ppm):
Ca: 166 / 108
Mg: 17 / 11
Na: 103 / 68
Cl: 89 / 58
SO4: 78 / 50

RA (mash only): 228

My question is does everything look ok here and also what the Mash + Sparge Water Profile mean, because I know Palmer said don't do any additions to Sparge water because it is so minimal. Thanks brew guys and gals.

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Check this out... helped me a lot:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-water-chemistry-primer-198460/

Also, make sure you are using EZ water 2.0 to help dial in the mash pH

Yea I used the EZ water calculator 2.0 for this one, was wondering if the calculations seem like there the right amount?

Just out of curiosity, Are you guys building your water like this because you don't have good water to begin with or was it just part of your "Brewing Progression"?

In my experience high calcium levels have no detriment to the beer whatsoever. My calcium levels are often a lot higher than "they" say it should be, and sometimes ridiculously high, and the beer comes out good. For the other stuff I don't go over the recommended amounts but calcium I do not limit.

If I were doing your beer (OP) I would go for 100-130 Chlorides, skip the MgS04 (lots of Mg in barley), and raise pH with maybe a little baking soda and enough CaCO3 to get the pH in range. IMHO you can't really put in too much CaCO3 because the extra will just settle out -- it's difficult to dissolve very much of it.

You can actually taste it in the mash. My black IPA mash comes out quite acidic before adding CaCO3, because I use lotsa gypsum and some CaCl. If I taste it before add the CaCO3, it tastes kind of dry and maybe mettalic? After adding a few grams of CaCO3 it tastes sweet, full and yummy. I also take pH readings with my meter. The CaCO3 will only raise the pH so much then adding more has no effect, but it always puts it in range for me. For an imperial stout, however, I wouldn't mind adding a little baking soda. It dissolves well and the small amount of sodium helps bring out the malt flavor.

Yankeehillbrewer said:

Just out of curiosity, Are you guys building your water like this because you don't have good water to begin with or was it just part of your "Brewing Progression"?

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I just try to build to the style... reason being, my tap water sucks (beyond the fluoride, it has a chlorine smell), and I have no way to remove it (no i am not using camden tablets). So I just buy distilled and build it up. The cost used to be $.89 a gallon but the prices went up to a $1 now... ideally I would just pull from the tap... i am considering a PUR faucet filter, who knows!!

I'm just trying to build my water up as well because no use doing RO water when my water starts out so soft anyway. Thanks for all the help guys any more would be greatly apprecited.

My water doesn't suck... for a stout. But without the gypsum I just can't get the hops right in an IPA, so water does make a difference in how your beer turns out, even if you have perfect water, it'll only be perfect for a certain set of beers.

Adam78K said:

Hey Guys,
brewing a Russian Imperial Stout this week, 63 SRM this weekend and want to dial my water in. Using EZ Water spreadsheet, here's what I've come up with:

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 8.9
Mg: 1
Na: 6.8
Cl: 4
SO4: 2
Alkalinity: 17.5

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 6 Gallons/3.5
Dilution Rate: 0%

RA (mash only): 228
Cl to SO4 (total water): 1.14 Balanced

Then, with my adjustments:
Adjustments (grams)
CaCO3: 6
CaSO4: .3
CaCl2: 4
MgSO4: 4
NaHCO3: 8
NaCl: 0


Mash Water Profile / Mash Water + Sparge Water profile (ppm):
Ca: 166 / 108
Mg: 17 / 11
Na: 103 / 68
Cl: 89 / 58
SO4: 78 / 50

RA (mash only): 228

My question is does everything look ok here and also what the Mash + Sparge Water Profile mean, because I know Palmer said don't do any additions to Sparge water because it is so minimal. Thanks brew guys and gals.

Click to expand...

An RA of 228 seems a bit high. From what I've heard, you don't need it as high as some brewing spreadsheets predict. I would maybe back off on the baking soda and go with an RA of 180-200. It would be best if you had a pH meter to let you know of what you're doing is correct, but if not you'll probably be OK with what you have. Also keep the calcium chloride and gypsum out of your mash since they lower the pH and work against the chalk and baking soda. That way you don't need as much baking soda to get the same pH.

Change my Sodium and Chalk level, now the RA is down to 171, that is a good starting point and I'll use pH strips to go from there.

Ended up with a pH of 5.6-5.7 also with cheap pH strips.

Glad to hear. That's still in the acceptable range. You could probably back off on the baking soda even more next time.

Yea,I was ok with my result, glad you guys told me to under estimate my numbers because for Stout's Palmer Calculator is high. Was also happy with the taste of the wort.