Attempting Supplication clone

boralyl said:

7/7/12 - Added 4 Pounds of Washington Bing cherries. Gravity reading was 1.010. The taste is very simalr to 1/30/2012. A little bit of the base brown ale in the nose along with cherries and sourness (despite no cherries being in the beer). Not a hint of the base beer in the taste. Very sour, cherries, lactic, tart. Very dry. I'm hoping w/ the cherries and carbonation it will make a fantastic sour beer. It's certainly coming along much better than expected. Very excited. Will let it sit on the cherries until October (~ 3 months), then bottle with Rockpile wine yeast. I should note that I had the real version on draft today and it tastes very close to my version. I think I might skip the Pinot and oak chips.

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FYI - Bing cherries are the wrong type to use and won't contribute much, if any flavor. You want tart cherries, not sweet.

malevolent said:

1.010 after adding the cherries or before?

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1.010 before adding the cherries. I expect it to drop a few more points over the next 3 months or so.

tasq said:

FYI - Bing cherries are the wrong type to use and won't contribute much, if any flavor. You want tart cherries, not sweet.

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I bottled this up last Friday and can say it's got a huge cherry aroma, and is deliciously sour. Should be carbonated in a few weeks. Once it is I'll post some tasting notes.

boralyl said:

I bottled this up last Friday and can say it's got a huge cherry aroma, and is deliciously sour. Should be carbonated in a few weeks. Once it is I'll post some tasting notes.

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Whatever wets your noodle buddy. That's what brewing is all about.

So the Bing cherries worked out well then. Good to know. Post tasting notes when you can.

I have used Bing cherries in a sour and it turned out great. Use what you have local and see what happens. I will not hesitate to use Bing next year when they are fresh and cheap. I missed the boat this year. So I used dry sour cherries this year from Michigan and am looking forward to tasting it in 6-12 months.

Barrel on my friend,
BW

My beer was already so sour, I didn't want to add anymore with sour cherries. Instead I got the nice cherry aroma/flavor from the Bing. Trying to force myself to not open a bottle for another week. It's not easy!

Well My Clone hits 6 months young In November. I am thinking of trying it since I have not tasted it since it was infected. The only thing I have opened it for was to ass Supplication dregs. I do not have a pellicle anymore and have not for a few months. This Better Bottle seems to completely eliminate the introduction of Oxygen. I like to see a good pellicle so it is a little disappointing.

Hope it is souring at least.

Boralyl - Sounds like your clone is coming along nicely! I'm excited to hear tasting notes. I do have a few questions, since I'm planning on starting my clone using a similar process as you (namely, simultaneously pitching Abbey 530, Sour Mix 655, and supplication dregs). First, what was your reason for not adding the pinot/oak? Second, why did you transfer from the carboy to the keg to the Better Bottle? Just to get the beer off the trub for the extended aging? Seems like an unnecessary risk of oxidation. Last, can you please share your original recipe? I didn't see it in this thread. I am planning to use something along the lines of the following, which someone else posted:

Ingredients:
11.0 lb American 2-row
1.0 lb Caramel Malt 40L
1.5 lb Vienna Malt
0.5 lb Carafa Special® TYPE III
1.0 oz Perle (8.2%) - added during boil, boiled 45.0 min

Thanks!

sub'd

Bambooshoot said:

First, what was your reason for not adding the pinot/oak?

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I originally had planned on it, but then life happened, so I never got around to it.

Bambooshoot said:

Second, why did you transfer from the carboy to the keg to the Better Bottle? Just to get the beer off the trub for the extended aging? Seems like an unnecessary risk of oxidation.

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5 months after the initial brew day I ended up moving 2600 miles across country, so I needed a more airtight container for it to make the journey. Otherwise, I would have left it on the trub the entire time.

Bambooshoot said:

Last, can you please share your original recipe? I didn't see it in this thread. I am planning to use something along the lines of the following, which someone else posted:

Ingredients:
11.0 lb American 2-row
1.0 lb Caramel Malt 40L
1.5 lb Vienna Malt
0.5 lb Carafa Special® TYPE III
1.0 oz Perle (8.2%) - added during boil, boiled 45.0 min

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You can find it, along w/ my procedure notes here: http://threegodsbrewing.com/recipes/russian-river-supplication-clone/

Finally got around to tasting this beer side by side with Russian River's Supplication. I had 4 friends over to do a side by side tasting, 3 out of the 4 preferred my version to Supplication which is a huge compliment. Below are my tasting notes. In them I have comparisons to Supplication in parenthesis.

Appearance: Pours about 1/3 an inch of off-whte head that fades into a ring after a minute. The beer is dark brown with hints of red, especially when held up to a light. (My clone is darker than Supplication. Also Supplication has more of a white head then my clone).

Aroma: The first time I take a waft I get a very light acidity followed by a strong dark cherry nose. As it warms the acidity becomes more apparent, and a little bit of the base brown ale appears. It’s not much and the cherry and brown ale aromas compete amongst each other. (Supplication’s nose has no trace of the base beer at all. It also has a little oak and wine characteristics. I ended up not using pinot noir or oak chips in my version.)

Mouthfeel: – The beer is light to medium in body with tingly carbonation at 2 weeks conditioning. (The mouthfeel is nearly identical to Supplication)

Taste: – A fairly light acidity strikes the taste buds first, followed by a nice dark cherry flavor. Towards the middle/finish the tartness comes back and goes from light to mouth puckering quickly. The sourness lingers for a bit in the mouth after the finish. (I’m not sure if this is because of the order I tried the beers, but Supplication tasted significantly less sour then my clone. Supplication also had many more wine notes, which makes perfect sense considering I didn’t add any, nor age it in wine barrels)

Overall: I’m extremely proud of this beer. It’s been a long and fun journey creating it. In my opinion this beer stands out and is easily comparable to the better commercial American Wild Ales on the market. I have noticed with my last 2 sour beers, that despite the long aging process, both of them were finished and hit their final gravity months before bottling. With that knowledge in hand, I think I am going to reduce the aging time to somewhere under a year for my next sour batch. I’m still debating on the style, but am leaning towards a lower alcohol blonde ale with blueberries.

Some additional bottling information and photos here: http://threegodsbrewing.com/2012/10/20/supplication-clone-bottling-and-tasting/

i just had this for the first time tonight. Fantastic. Thanks for pulling this together, it's on my list!

it has been 6 months since i infected the beer. Came in at 1.017 gravity and this beer smells and tastes amazing. It is souring very nicely, I now have high hopes for this beer!

I have not put any soaked oak chips or cherries in yet and i cannot wait to do so.

Next to the bottle for reference.

I have to agree with Boralyl that mine also tastes like cherries without them being added yet. It has the most amazing Oude Bruin/Flanders smell that i could ever wish for.

Subscribed!

Any further updates? Mine is in primary and moving to 2ndary soon for the long haul

Well Russian River just announced that they will be pulling distribution to Washington state, Looks like i will be making a constant supply of this stuff.

For the longterm fermentation,it's best to use glass carboys, right?

lawnboy881 said:

For the longterm fermentation,it's best to use glass carboys, right?

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Better Bottles work fine as well, just not the plastic buckets for extended aging.

Yeah, mine is in a better bottle at 8 months now and it tastes great.

Thanks. I came to my senses and realize RSWHAHB. Mine is in a BB, just added Brett Sunday.

What's wrong with using the buckets for extended aging? Is it just the grommet?

monkeybox said:

What's wrong with using the buckets for extended aging? Is it just the grommet?

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No sir, plastic buckets have a much higher level of micro oxygenation (permeation)... Many have done tests with it and truly believe that buckets are fine for sours under a year, but you might get a tiny acetic character.

bellmtbbq said:

No sir, plastic buckets have a much higher level of micro oxygenation (permeation)... Many have done tests with it and truly believe that buckets are fine for sours under a year, but you might get a tiny acetic character.

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My concern has always been less about the oxygen that permeates through the plastic, and more about an ill-seated lid. If your lid isn't completely sealed and you allow the free-exchange of gases inside and outside of the fermentor, that's where you'll be in real danger of making a 5 gallon batch of malt vinegar.

Brewed this recipe 12/30/12. Fermented according to BK1017 post/schedule but my gravity is only down to 1.020. Sample today is very vinous, dominated by the pinot noir added. I know we're still early on, but planned on adding the Sour Mix in a couple of weeks. Should I pitch more Abbey Ale to get it lower, or just not worry and pitch the Sour Mix?

Any opinions are welcome...

lawnboy881 said:

Brewed this recipe 12/30/12. Fermented according to BK1017 post/schedule but my gravity is only down to 1.020. Sample today is very vinous, dominated by the pinot noir added. I know we're still early on, but planned on adding the Sour Mix in a couple of weeks. Should I pitch more Abbey Ale to get it lower, or just not worry and pitch the Sour Mix?

Any opinions are welcome...

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Sour mix now. 1.020 sounds perfect, give the bugs plenty of sugars

I brewed 12 gallons of a Supplication clone over a year ago and it turned out horrible. Overpowering ethyl acetate. It sat in carboys the whole time with an airlock. I added oak cubes after the dried cherries had been in there which I believe was the problem. The cherries were floating on top so when the oak cubes were added, they sat on top of the cherries. I tried gently stirring the oak cubes through the cherries and I think that's what ruined the beer. It tasted good before I added the cubes. It was a pretty expensive beer to make and will probably get dumped sadly.

Oldsock said:

Let it ferment out -23 weeks, then rack it to secondary onto .5 oz of French oak and 1 cup or two of Pinot Noir. Leave it along for 6-12 months before adding the sour cherries, that will give the bugs time to become the dominant organisms so you are feeding them not the Sacch. Something like 1 lb per gallon is probably enough, I like to freeze/defrost them first to breakdown the cell walls. Give it 2-6 months on the fruit, then bottle with some fresh wine yeast or Brett, and enough sugar for medium carbonation.

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Sorry to dig up a potentially old thread, but I've had my base beer in primary for approximately 2 weeks now. I haven't added the brett or bugs yet. Just pitched Abbey Ale yeast. I'm planning on taking a gravity reading this weekend and then adding three strains of brett.

I see Mike (Oldsock) recommends letting this beer sit in primary for ~ 23 weeks.

While I've never experienced autolysis in a batch before, I've also never left a batch in primary for 23 weeks.

Does the addition of the brett and bugs lessen the chances for autolysis or is 6 months at the homebrew scale not enough time to really cause autolysis?

Would appreciate any feedback possible. I'm wondering if I should rack to secondary before adding the brett and bugs. If I did, then I'd have to rack again when I had the cherries & pinot soaked french oak.

Thanks in advance - Matt

Riseabovebb said:

Sorry to dig up a potentially old thread, but I've had my base beer in primary for approximately 2 weeks now. I haven't added the brett or bugs yet. Just pitched Abbey Ale yeast. I'm planning on taking a gravity reading this weekend and then adding three strains of brett.

I see Mike (Oldsock) recommends letting this beer sit in primary for ~ 23 weeks.

While I've never experienced autolysis in a batch before, I've also never left a batch in primary for 23 weeks.

Does the addition of the brett and bugs lessen the chances for autolysis or is 6 months at the homebrew scale not enough time to really cause autolysis?

Would appreciate any feedback possible. I'm wondering if I should rack to secondary before adding the brett and bugs. If I did, then I'd have to rack again when I had the cherries & pinot soaked french oak.

Thanks in advance - Matt

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I think that was a bit of a typo meaning to say 2-3 weeks, not 23 weeks. See the dash before the numbers?

stubbornman said:

I think that was a bit of a typo meaning to say 2-3 weeks, not 23 weeks. See the dash before the numbers?

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Exactly, sorry about that (especially considering Russian River's weird thing with the number 23). Just wait until the beer has dropped mostly clear, Vinnie is a big believer of "clean" beer going into the barrels.

Been wanting to tackle this for a while and finally knocked out a batch today. This is the recipe I did for a six gal batch:

10 lbs 2 row (71.4%)
2.5 lbs Vienna (17.9%)
1.25 lbs C40 (8.9%)
0.25 lbs Carafa III (1.8%)

60 min mash at 156-158.

1 oz hallertau 5% @ 90
0.5 oz Saaz 4% @ 90

1.5L starter of WLP530 along with a vial of WLP665 Flemish blend and dregs from two bottles of Supplication. This was probably the best part of the whole brew day . Everything pitched into the primary

Color seems right on. 18L per brew pal. 19 IBU est per brew pal as well. 1.063 into primary after having to add a bit to compensate for boil off. Seems pretty much right on now. We will see how it goes from here.

Cheers!

Just picked up 6.5 lbs of sour cherries today at the farmers market in D.C. Pitted and froze them tonight and plan on adding tomorrow or later this week.

I plan on just adding these cherries to secondary, which the beer has already been sitting in since March. Don't see any reason to move to tertiary as that just introduces to much oxygen. Any issues you guys see with this approach?

Riseabovebb said:

Just picked up 6.5 lbs of sour cherries today at the farmers market in D.C. Pitted and froze them tonight and plan on adding tomorrow or later this week.

I plan on just adding these cherries to secondary, which the beer has already been sitting in since March. Don't see any reason to move to tertiary as that just introduces to much oxygen. Any issues you guys see with this approach?

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Nope, secondary sounds solid to me, no need to risk even more oxygen exposure.

I picked up 5 lbs of fresh Oregon cherries yesterday (3lbs rainier, 2 lbs dark/sweet). I tried to find sour cherries but couldn't so i settled on what was fresh and tasty from the farmer's market. Pitting that many cherries is a bit of a chore. I froze them last night and thawed them today.
Getting 5lbs of cherries into a carboy was also a time consuming job (hopefully they break down or getting them out will be even worse.)
Brewed on Jan 14. Racked onto the cherries this afternoon. The sample tasted better than I was expecting, tart with brett funk, dry but still some body.
Back to the closet for another 6 months.

Does anyone know if Vinnie feeds the bugs?

I did this a few months ago according to Vinnie's schedule: brewed a base beer, mashing high (156), moved that off the yeast onto dried sour cherries and toasted french oak cubes soaked in Pinot. Pitched Brett and then two months later the bugs (Roeselare). I'm concerned that this isn't going to get sour enough. I recall one commercial American sour brewer (I forget who) adds sugar at the same time as the bugs. I was thinking of adding some maltodextrin--or is there enough residual sugar from the fruit to sour this up sufficiently? Thoughts...?

spiny_norman said:

Does anyone know if Vinnie feeds the bugs?

I did this a few months ago according to Vinnie's schedule: brewed a base beer, mashing high (156), moved that off the yeast onto dried sour cherries and toasted french oak cubes soaked in Pinot. Pitched Brett and then two months later the bugs (Roeselare). I'm concerned that this isn't going to get sour enough. I recall one commercial American sour brewer (I forget who) adds sugar at the same time as the bugs. I was thinking of adding some maltodextrin--or is there enough residual sugar from the fruit to sour this up sufficiently? Thoughts...?

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I don't think he 'feeds the bugs', at least not from all the BN interviews I've listened to with him. If you are interested, find the podcast with Vinnie's NHC presentation from a few years back. I think the PDF that goes with it is on the AHA site if you're a member.

Welp, I'm sending this beer to Philly next week for the first round of NHC. Wish me luck guys!

Riseabovebb said:

Welp, I'm sending this beer to Philly next week for the first round of NHC. Wish me luck guys!

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My beer scored well (38.5), but not well enough to proceed to the next stage. Super happy with my score, especially considering this was my very first competition.

I definitely plan on brewing this beer again. It was costly, but well worth the money spent!

Hey folks,
Thanks for the great info. FWIW, Here is an email exchange I had with Vinnie yesterday:

Vinnie (or to whom filters emails for Vinnie),
First off, thank you for everything you have contributed to the homebrewing community - time, wisdom, and energy.

My club in NC is planning a sour barrel project using a 30-gallon barrel and we have decided we would like to best try to emulate RRB's Supplication. From talking to others in the HB community and reading a lot of forums, this is the recipe I have come up with:
70% - 2-row
15% - Vienna
10% - C-40
5% - Carafa III
20 ibus - Golding(?)
Primary fermentation with Abbey ale Yeast
When transferred to barrel, add blend of Brettanomyces, a Lactobacillus culture, and a Pediococcus culture and 12.5 lbs of dried tart cherries.
Are we on the right track? Do you have any redirection for us?
All the best,
James

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James,
Thanks for the email, your recipe looks good. I would make sure you mash close to 160F to create more unfermentable sugar. Also, we add the Brett first with the beer and fruit and let it work for a few months before we add the bacteria though adding the bacteria earlier in the aging probably won't hurt the beer.

Good luck,
Vinnie

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I hope this helps in some way.

I just read this whole thread. I'm planning on making my own Supplication clone/take probably next week. I just ordered a few yeasts from The Yeast Bay which i'm going to use for this project. I'll use their Northeastern Abby yeast as the primary yeast and then the Mélange blend for secondary fermentation funkiness. I plan on making ~6 gallons of base beer, and then when i transfer to secondary i'll split the batch into two 3 gal batches. In this way, I can taste test the primary yeast and its effects and compare it to the version with the bugs added. Also, this hedges my bets in case something goes wrong in sourness funkytown, i'll still have 3 gallons of brown NE Abby ale. Two brews in one. This should be a good way to jump in the deep end with sour beers and really test out some of the strains from TYB. ITMT, i'm sub'd to this thread and i'll post more details on my recipe and process with an evaluation of the TYB strains as I go on from here.