Suitable for Oktoberfest ?!

Hi there !

Is this water profile suitable for brewing an Oktoberfest ?

2-row pale malt --> 0.97 lb

Munich malt --> 0.24 lb

Crystal malt 40 L --> 0.24 lb

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 16.5
Mg: 11.8
Na: 32
Cl: 10.2
SO4: 32.5
HCO3: 130

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 0.55 / 0.73
RO or distilled %: 0% / 0%

Total Grain (lb): 1.46

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaSO4: 0.2 / 0
CaCl2: 0.5 / 0.2
MgSO4: 0 / 0
NaHCO3: 0 / 0
CaCO3: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid (ml): 0
Sauermalz (oz): 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 104 / 65
Mg: 12 / 12
Na: 32 / 32
Cl: 127 / 80
SO4: 86 / 56
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 1.47 / 1.44

Alkalinity (CaCO3): 107
RA: 25
Estimated pH: 5.57
(room temp)


Hector

I would skip the gypsum and use dilution with RO and the addition of acid to get the pH closer to 5.4. Make sure you have about 50 ppm of calcium too.

afr0byte said:

I would skip the gypsum and use dilution with RO and the addition of acid to get the pH closer to 5.4.

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In fact , I decided not to dilute with RO , so that the Magnesium concentration remains above 10 ppm .

Besides , I'd like to have a residual alkalinity between 0 and 50 . By adding acid , the RA would go to the negative side ( below zero ) .

Hector

hector said:

In fact , I decided not to dilute with RO , so that the Magnesium concentration remains above 10 ppm .

Besides , I'd like to have a residual alkalinity between 0 and 50 . By adding acid , the RA would go to the negative side ( below zero ) .

Hector

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There is plenty of magnesium in the malt. I regularly have my magnesium below 10 in my starting water. Also, pH is was what is important. Why are you so concerned about having a positive ra?

Maybe because Octoberfest style is typically brewed with alkaline water (up to 300 ppm), according to BJCP guidelines?


I am not sure how I feel about that grain bill. You should be using German Vienna malt. e.g. Weyermann Vienna, as the base grain usually.

weirdboy said:

Maybe because Octoberfest style is typically brewed with alkaline water (up to 300 ppm), according to BJCP guidelines?

I am not sure how I feel about that grain bill. You should be using German Vienna malt. e.g. Weyermann Vienna, as the base grain usually.

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yeah but you don't know how they treat the water...that is just the source water

The style originates from the 1800's I seriously doubt they were treating the water then. The Reinheitsgebot pretty much precludes water treatment without some "interesting" procedures, like running the water over slaked lime.

weirdboy said:

The style originates from the 1800's I seriously doubt they were treating the water then. The Reheitsgebot pretty much precludes water treatment without some "interesting" procedures, like running the water over slaked lime.

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We also can't taste the beer compared to current examples.

You know, I am not sure what your argument is, here. That the water isn't supposed to be alkaline?

You seem bent on trying to prove something, but I just cannot figure out what that is.

It is a well-established fact that Munich water is high in carbonates and this is a major contributing factor to styles originating there, such as Octoberfest, German Pils, and Helles.

weirdboy said:

You know, I am not sure what your argument is, here. That the water isn't supposed to be alkaline?

You seem bent on trying to prove something, but I just cannot figure out what that is.

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I'm saying based on my reading (Gordon Strong, AJ Delange, etc) and experience, low mineral water is ideal. Im also saying that just because they did something one way originally doesn't mean it was the best way (re: your origin of the style statement). Besides, I am just saying what I would do. Hector will probably be fine with his profile.

hector said:

Hi there !

Is this water profile suitable for brewing an Oktoberfest ?

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 16.5
Mg: 11.8
Na: 32
Cl: 10.2
SO4: 32.5
HCO3: 130

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You could probably do an O'fest with that water but you will do a better one if you dilute 2:1 or 3:1 with low ion water to get the alkalinity down to 43 to 32 and the sulfate down to 11 - 8. Munich water has carbonate hardness but this was clearly removed when they brewed things like Helles and probably O'fest as well but I can't confirm that as I wasn't there. It is low in sulfate and chloride and you definitely do not want to boost the sulfate in a delicate beer like this using noble hops. You probably should boost the chloride especially as doing so you will doubtless use calcium chloride which boosts the calcium as well. Increasing the chloride is a departure from tradition but definitely improves the beer. You will also need some acid in the form of sauermalz, sauergut or lactic acid to lower the pH into the correct range.

One of the best (IMO) beers I do is an O'fest with a grist consisting of 1/3 each Pils, Vienna and Munich I. pH is controlled with sauermalz which does more than just set pH - it definitely adds flavor components of its own. Water is RO with enough calcium chloride to bring the Ca++ level to about 35 mg/L.