Bad Luck With Starters? Give up and triple pitch?

First time I made a starter my GF threw it out, had to drive 60 miles to find yeast and ended up pitching directly into the wort.

Now I built a stirplate, made another 2L starter last night, caped it with a piece of foil, and let it run 24 hours so I could brew tomorrow. Just removed it from the stirplate and found 2 fruit flies inside.

I would assume it is ruined again. What a waste of work and time and money.

I'm thinking about giving up on starters since they only seem to bring delays.

And what to do now? I was using Greenbelt yeast, which is a special yeast from Wyeast that I will not be able to find locally. Overnight ship maybe 3 bags of it and dump them directly into an imperial IPA? Delays delays delays.

And how the hell did fruit flies get into my starter!?! it's not like I left the foil loose on the top oh no!

Can I use it anyways? Cause if I do 2 day shipping it will cost me $55 for 2 packets of yeast. maybe pluck out the flies with some sanitized tweezers?


bad yeast starter by Glamisduner, on Flickr

http://www.austinhomebrew.com/product_info.php?products_id=12720
This is the yeast I am using ^^^

The only thing I can think of is that maybe they flew into the wort while it was boiling? But even then I had the lid mostly on the pot the entire time. Maybe I just can't make starters? Can I use an airlock? It might be the only way! maybe they flew into the DME before I dumped it into the pot?

Weekend Ruined once again....

Emergency pitch dry yeast instead. Always have some on hand. US-05 and Nottingham are great, clean fermenting strains. I use dry yeast whenever possible - no starter required, high cell count, healthy fermentation. In the cases where a specialized yeast strains are desired, I go to the trouble of making big starters. However, I always keep some dry yeast on hand in case the starter fails and I still want to brew.

DO NOT pitch a starter with fruit flies in it. You'll make a batch of malt vinegar, almost guaranteed.

I just remembered I have another kit I picked up with a specialty yeast. I guess tomorrow I'll go buy more DME and try that one instead on sunday. But what to do about these fruit flies?

Can I stick the starter in my fermentation freezer or will that be too cold? I only have some apfelwine in there right now and it's done fermenting a month ago.

No, you can't put an ale starter in a cold place.

Find the source of the fruit flies and remove it. Do you keep fruit or other food uncovered? Is your kitchen stove a little messy? Clean everything up as best you can, put a shallow dish with some vinegar in the corner of your kitchen (to catch and drown the fruit flies), and ferment your starter in another room (guest bathroom?).

Yuri_Rage said:

No, you can't put an ale starter in a cold place.

Find the source of the fruit flies and remove it. Do you keep fruit or other food uncovered? Is your kitchen stove a little messy? Clean everything up as best you can, put a shallow dish with some vinegar in the corner of your kitchen (to catch and drown the fruit flies), and ferment your starter in another room (guest bathroom?).

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I fermented this one in my bedroom on the far side of the house away from the kitchen with the doors and windows closed. It's the only room with AC and the rest of house is about 85-90 all day right now due to this heat wave. I don't think there is a source for the fruit flies ( haven't actually seen any except for in my starter), but the only way I can think to remove them is to put the starter in a sealed container. Maybe I can crank up the temp in the fermentation chamber for a day while I make my starter? Say 74F?

The other option would be vinegar, but I'm not sure I would want that in my bedroom? I will certainly leave some out when making starters from now on though!.

Bad luck? Sorry, can't help ya much more. Foil usually works.

Don't put a vinegar trap near your starter - that will just attract flies to it.

Yuri_Rage said:

Bad luck? Sorry, can't help ya much more. Foil usually works.

Don't put a vinegar trap near your starter - that will just attract flies to it.

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I'll leave it in the kitchen then, and put it in the living room while making the next one? I'm staring to think it might be worth the money to double and triple pitch though.

Also be sure to sanitize your foil. I keep my starter in my fermentation fridge so I can't get flies unless one gets trapped, though warmer temps are a better choice for starters. Dry yeast is a great choice, and certainly better than risking fly water.

I cover my starters with a few layers of paper towels that have been moistened with sanitizer and secure it with a rubber band. No insects will get past the rubber band and I feel like the towels can breathe better than foil. It has worked well for me so far.

The night before I brew, I place a fruitfly trap in my brew area. Pour some apple cider vinegar in a small jar, add a drop of dish soap, mix, cover with plastic wrap, secure with rubber band. Take a needle and put a few holes in the plastic wrap - large enough for the flies to get in.

vera said:

The night before I brew, I place a fruitfly trap in my brew area. Pour some apple cider vinegar in a small jar, add a drop of dish soap, mix, cover with plastic wrap, secure with rubber band. Take a needle and put a few holes in the plastic wrap - large enough for the flies to get in.

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Maybe I really should just wait another week to brew. it's going to be 100 again today

Do I need apple cider vinegar specifically?

I refrigerated that starter just to see if it actually generated any yeast. I can see some yeast at the bottom, but it's not sitting at the bottom, more like floating there. But even in that case I would want to decant at least 1.5L right then pour the rest in?

I think I might just have to order more green belt yest for these 2 kits, since it really does seem to be important to this particular beer. But I do wonder how it would come out if I used white labs instead since that is readily available.

Also I could make another starter today but I don't think I would have enough time to cold crash it AND brew tomorrow.

If there were fruit flies, it's ruined. Don't use it.

We had drain flies once and they were everywhere. Thought they were fruit flies so kept nothing out, but the problem persisted.
The flies love garbage disposals and drains but a cup of ammonia in each drain every couple days breaks the cycle and they were gone. I also dump the leftover lye from making Brezeln
A cheap fly trap is a dollar store salt shaker with the holes opened to 1/8" (I used a red hot nail) a little apple juice and soap.

I found the source of fruit flies, a fishtank with moss.

Anyways, I went to the LHBS and bought some dry malt extract for making another starter. The guy there told me to use an airlock instead of foil, but on this forum everyone says I'd be stupid for doing that? Honestly though I'm thinking I would rather have just an ok starter than throw out another one and have to ship in fresh yeast again.

I bought the rubber stopper from them for the flask which cost me $4 + tax. I guess I will just use that instead of foil? Or at least until I order more stuff from Austin home brew. Then I will be getting one of these
http://www.austinhomebrew.com/product_info.php?cPath=178_33_66_554&products_id=2422

Use a foam stopper instead of the foil: http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/foam-stopper-46-50mm.html

Don't use a starter that had fruit flies in it. Like Yuri said, acetobacter, plus this: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/yellow-white-creepy-crawly-things-my-beer-130714/

CO2 attracts bugs. It's a contest you can't win. Use the foam stopper.

passedpawn said:

Use a foam stopper instead of the foil: http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/foam-stopper-46-50mm.html

Don't use a starter that had fruit flies in it. Like Yuri said, acetobacter, plus this: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/yellow-white-creepy-crawly-things-my-beer-130714/

CO2 attracts bugs. It's a contest you can't win. Use the foam stopper.

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Right but I dont have one. So I guess I will use a regular air lock for the starter that is boiling right now? I realize foam is better but my LHBS did not have these, only regular drilled rubber stopper which is what I picked up for $4.

I'm hesitant to try foil only again.

Just finishing my starter, currently wrapped with foil again anyways. I'm not sure it will have enough time though to brew by tomorrow?I guess i could start brewing at 5:00 and that would give it almost 24 hours. is that long enough?

I'm gonna second the dry yeast idea.I always have a pack of Notty for emergencies and an EC-1118 for stuck fermentations in my fridge.
Guess that doesn't help now though.

Justintoxicated said:

Just finishing my starter, currently wrapped with foil again anyways. I'm not sure it will have enough time though to brew by tomorrow?I guess i could start brewing at 5:00 and that would give it almost 24 hours. is that long enough?

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Since you don't have time to cold crash and decant the spent liquid before pitching, you're going to have to pitch the whole thing (not a big deal). That being the case, it should be ready to go after about 12 hours on the stir plate.

I'm too new to the hobby to even pretend to know which dry yeast would be a good substitute, especially for a austinbrew exclusive yeast, that the recipe is based on working with.

Glad to heat it will be ok after 12 hours, how long would it take to cold crash in a chest freezer set to 31 degrees? Maybe I can let it go for 20 hours then cold crash for 4 hours before I brew?

I believe the general consensus around here for cold crashing a starter is 24 hours minimum. Personally, I like to go 48 hours if I can spare it. Also, I could be mistaken, but if one is going to cold crash, I believe it's best to let the starter ferment out completely, which generally means 24 hours on the stir plate, then into the fridge for another 24 hours. If pitching the whole starter, which a lot of folks on here do, it's okay to pitch before it has fully fermented, which is where the 12 hours I posted earlier comes from.

For dry yeast, go with Safale US-05 (this is the same strain as Wyeast 1056 & White Labs WP001). Extremely neutral, clean, and versatile. Can be used for pretty much any ale. My guess, after reading the description for Greenbelt, is that they're close relatives to one another.

You can use the airlock but don't put anything in it, so the flask can "breathe."

Right. The reason you don't use an airlock is so that you can feed oxygen to the yeast through the use of a stir plate or shaking. A foam stopper is a great idea that would be great for your next starter.

Ok well i went with foil again, so I wish I didn't buy this rubber stopper but I guess it could come in handy if I were to need to refrigerate the starter for a while.

Anyways the new starter is bubbling out the top of the flask. I can see tones of fermentation taking place and tiny bubbles rising to the top and whirling around. Pretty cool!
It makes me think that the green belt yeast was not viable anyways, since I saw absolutely no signs of fermentation. The greenbelt (the one with the two fruit flies is one where the cold pack was hot from our heat wave, AND I think it sat in trucks over the weekend. My other starter that my gf threw out also arrived hot, and I didn't see any signs of fermentation in that one.

This would indicate that the yeast was not viable to begin with right? I mean I know the yeast being warm for a while probably wont kill it but sitting in a UPS truck when it's 95 outside (probably 130+ inside the truck?) that might kill it? I should see some signs of fermentation when making a starter right?

I think I am going to need a larger flask for making 2L starters...

LLBeanJ said:

For dry yeast, go with Safale US-05 (this is the same strain as Wyeast 1056 & White Labs WP001). Extremely neutral, clean, and versatile. Can be used for pretty much any ale. My guess, after reading the description for Greenbelt, is that they're close relatives to one another.

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For me the bru hah for liquid yeast is just that. Unless I'm going to do a beer that just can't be done without some exotic liquid yeast I'm going to use the dry yeast equal to the recommended liquid. prep is boil 1 cup water, cool, add dry yeast, swirl, cover for 10 to 60 minutes, add to cooled wort.
Costs less, stores better, much less stress. Dry just makes sense to me. I am all about KISS.

Justintoxicated said:

Ok well i went with foil again, so I wish I didn't buy this rubber stopper but I guess it could come in handy if I were to need to refrigerate the starter for a while.

Anyways the new starter is bubbling out the top of the flask. I can see tones of fermentation taking place and tiny bubbles rising to the top and whirling around. Pretty cool!
It makes me think that the green belt yeast was not viable anyways, since I saw absolutely no signs of fermentation. The greenbelt (the one with the two fruit flies is one where the cold pack was hot from our heat wave, AND I think it sat in trucks over the weekend. My other starter that my gf threw out also arrived hot, and I didn't see any signs of fermentation in that one.

This would indicate that the yeast was not viable to begin with right? I mean I know the yeast being warm for a while probably wont kill it but sitting in a UPS truck when it's 95 outside (probably 130+ inside the truck?) that might kill it? I should see some signs of fermentation when making a starter right?

I think I am going to need a larger flask for making 2L starters...

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Glad you gave the starter method another shot. They are definetly worth doing. As to your greenbelt yeast, one day at 130F won't kill all of the cells. Those packs were probably pretty dead though. Probably would have taken close to 96 hours to see any active yeast if they were alive. (I know you said you put one in the fridge and saw some settling. Do you remember what color the yeast was that settled out?) BTW, when I do a starter I fill my 2000ml flask up to about the 1400ml mark, boil it down to 1300ml and pitch the yeast into that, which gives me a decent amount of head space.

DrawTap88 said:

Glad you gave the starter method another shot. They are definetly worth doing. As to your greenbelt yeast, one day at 130F won't kill all of the cells. Those packs were probably pretty dead though. Probably would have taken close to 96 hours to see any active yeast if they were alive. (I know you said you put one in the fridge and saw some settling. Do you remember what color the yeast was that settled out?) BTW, when I do a starter I fill my 2000ml flask up to about the 1400ml mark, boil it down to 1300ml and pitch the yeast into that, which gives me a decent amount of head space.

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If I remember correctly the yeast look kinda grayish... I think it was pretty dead. It was also several months old, and was probably in high heat for several days.

The new starter however worked excellent (also from Austin home brew but with a request that they ship out Monday to avoid the yeast sitting in a truck over the weekend). The beer has already started fermenting too. I set the freezer for 70 degrees since 68-72 is the recommended fermentation temp. It's a Black Imperial IPA and I added their alcohol boost. Starting gravity was 1.078! I decided to just go right in with a blowoff tube this time instead of an airlock. I have a feeling this one might get a bit crazy, especially with the large starter.

THE BAD LUCK CONTINUES:
Since the starter worked so well, it overflowed and shorted out my newly built stir plate (first time testing it and it worked flawless). I guess it seeped into the project box via the screws holding the fan up in the bottom. The LM317T as on the bottom of the project box so I'm guessing this shorted out. Not sure what all fried in the box, my guess is the Potentiometer unless teh LM317T is likely to fry itself? But damn, I'll have to buy all new components to fix it because I soldered everything pretty permanent.. I'd have to build the circuit again from scratch! Damn starters are hard and expensive! At least for me...

Wow, man. Sounds like you just can't catch a break. Hang in there and don't let the bastards get you down!

LLBeanJ said:

Wow, man. Sounds like you just can't catch a break. Hang in there and don't let the bastards get you down!

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This is what the carboy looked like this morning when I woke up.

black imperial ipa by Glamisduner, on Flickr


And this is the fermentation (no sound needed, cause my commentary is horrible)

William's Brewing has some neat foam stoppers that fit various flask sizes. Soak them in sanitizer and wring them out before use. Air permeable and no crud (or flies) in your starter.

Until you get a foam stopper, you can use a piece of nylon mesh brew bag or a paint strainer bag soaked in sani solution. Cover the opening of your flask with the mesh, and fasten with sanitized rubberband. Then cover with sanitized foil. That's what I've been using ever since my fruitfly incident. No more issues. I still set up fruitfly traps prior to brewing because I'm terrified of getting fruitflies in my wort while racking to fermenter.