Flow rate on batch sparge

Hi, I am trying to find out if there is a recommended flow rate on batch sparging. I know with fly sparging you want around 1 quart per minute. But does the same go for batch sparging? Even though im not flying sparging, if im using a copper manifold and my flow rate is too high, i would assume i could cause some channeling. Maybe if its too fast i wouldn't be able to leach the sugars out as well. Any suggestions?

Also how long do you wait on your second runnings once you have added more water and stirred up the grain bed again?

There is no such thing as channeling in a batch sparge. The only caution is to run off the vorlauf a bit slower to gently set the grain bed, then when you start the full runoff, let it rip.

Ok, thanks for the quick response.

But open the valve slowly when you let it rip or you'll get a huge pile of grain in your kettle.

Bobby_M said:

There is no such thing as channeling in a batch sparge. The only caution is to run off the vorlauf a bit slower to gently set the grain bed, then when you start the full runoff, let it rip.

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How much would be too much grain in your boil? I have been doing dark beers up until last week I did a nice APA. Much lighter in color and can actually see more grain being run off. Probably the same in my darker beers but just couldn't see it. Those seem to taste just fine though.

Open the valve slowly when vorlaufing. Once clear, it is wide open. I can run off 4 gallons in about 5 minutes. The last gallon, of course, is the slowest.

Eric

deepcdan99 said:

How much would be too much grain in your boil? I have been doing dark beers up until last week I did a nice APA. Much lighter in color and can actually see more grain being run off. Probably the same in my darker beers but just couldn't see it. Those seem to taste just fine though.

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If you vorlauf even with only a gallon, you should be free of grain chunks in the boil. If batch sparging, make sure you vorlauf your sparge also.

I wouldn't go too fast or you will leave a bunch of wort saturated in the grains that hasn't had a change to get to the siphon before it runs dry.

MNDan said:

I wouldn't go too fast or you will leave a bunch of wort saturated in the grains that hasn't had a change to get to the siphon before it runs dry.

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I don't understand the logic in that.

Just that if you run it really fast, you will notice that when you scoop out your grains that they are still very damp (& heavy!) and hold a lot of wort that you didn't recover.

MNDan said:

Just that if you run it really fast, you will notice that when you scoop out your grains that they are still very damp (& heavy!) and hold a lot of wort that you didn't recover.

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I'll take a paper plate and gently push down on the grain bed to sqeeze out a final few cups of wort. Don't know if that's recommended, but hey, RDW, right?

I'm also curious about this. I've just done my first AG last week and it does seem to me that if I run slower it gives the wort more time to drain out of the grains. So if I take my time and run slow, could that perhaps bump up my efficiency a bit?

i open my valve all the way after i vorlauf and i get 80% efficiency. so let it rip

I agree with let er rip. No reason to mess around in a batch sparge.

I put the first runnings on the burner, then add the first and second sparge as it happens. Gets the wort boiling quicker.

MNDan said:

I wouldn't go too fast or you will leave a bunch of wort saturated in the grains that hasn't had a change to get to the siphon before it runs dry.

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huh?

You'll be using a piece of tubing on the ballvalve, to pull out a "siphon" anyway. How can you let mess that up by going faster? That doesn't make any sense at all. Slow or fast- you either have a flow or not.

Anyway, for batch sparging, there isn't any reason at all to go slow.

Mightyscoop said:

I'm also curious about this. I've just done my first AG last week and it does seem to me that if I run slower it gives the wort more time to drain out of the grains. So if I take my time and run slow, could that perhaps bump up my efficiency a bit?

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No. The diffusion principle is at work in batch sparging. That is, the sugars will get "pulled" to the areas of less concentration. You're stirring the grain and water when you put in the sparge water, and this happens very quickly. You just need to vorlauf a little, then drain. Draining slow will not give you any greater benefit than draining fast.

I find that I get a few extra percent of gravity if i run off slow rather than letting rip. I have no idea why.

I use a bazooker screen filter. I also put a one foot clear silicon tube from the tun spigot to drain into a pot from which i then pump up into my kettle. I open the mash tun tap until i just get a syphon in the tube and thats what I call a 'slow' run off. If i were to open the tap fully I end up getting maybe 3% less efficiency. Sometimes Im in more hurry and just accept the loss and add in some extra DME to the kettle. its no big deal either way to me.

No reason to go slow. Like several others have said, if batch sparging let it rip. Channeling is N/A as far as batch sparging goes (you stir in batch sparging, which equally distributes the sugar throughout your liquid volume).

By batch sparging you are simply diluting the wort left in the grain after the initial runoff (or first sparge round, if double batch sparging).

Fly sparging is more of a "top to bottom" rinsing of the grain. You have your concentrated wort in the grain bed "layer" and you sparge water being added on top (think of it as a layered shot), which is why channelling becomes an issue. If the water on top takes a path of least resistance (down the wall or through some channel you drill while dumping in your vorlauf) than the whole grain bed will not be equally rinsed.

Like I said, stirring "equally rinses" all the grain in batch sparging. Channeling = not applicable. You may see "channels" once all of your liquid is drained but they have no affect on your efficiency if you are batch sparging.

doctorRobert said:

I don't understand the logic in that.

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IF you have a tun design that relies on any kind of dip/siphon tube to suck wort from below the bulkhead, it is completely logical. This concept is fully realized almost to the point of exageration in a Sanke Keg based tun where you have a large false bottom. If I pump out of there at full bore, I can easily suck all the wort from the area below the FB, while tons of wort is still trickling down through the grain. Once I pull air, it's time to stop pumping. Even if you're gravity draining, the same can happen. You go to fast, you lose your siphon and 2 minutes later you have another gallon of wort ready to drain out. The only way to fix it is to refill your output hose with some water or wort and restart the siphon (or just suck on the hose).

In tun designs where the bulkhead is at or below the lowest level of mash, this is a moot point completely. That's why I like the idea of a dead center bottom drain on any sanke based tun that is NOT intended to be direct fired.

Keep in mind that I'm not talking about channeling at all. There's really no term for this but dead space is close. Dead space is a volume of wort that the tun is incapable of draining. You install a dip tube to try to combat this efficiency killer but if you drain too fast right at the end, you create a temporary deadspace while wort is draining out faster than it can seep through the grain. I expect this is more of an issue with really wide rectangular coolers rather than tall narrow ones.

I have an (only slightly) off topic question. I have been trying my hand at batch sparging for my last half dozen or so beers. Reading through some of the comments on this thread, I am wondering if I am doing it wrong.

When I batch sparge (I do two sparge additions), I completely drain the mash tun of the mash wort before adding any sparge water. I then divide the volume of my sparge water in half. I add the first half to the drained bed, stir and wait about 10 min. Then I recirculate and collect the run off. I then repeat with the second half of my water.

Should I be adding my first sparge to the mash (and mash water) before I take my first runnings? My tun is certainly capable of handling that for most beers. Or should I be draining before I take my first runnings? It seemed to me like that was the only way to accurately figure out how much liquid retention you're getting in the grain.

Then again, I have had a couple of beers recently that attenuated much more than I thought they should given my mash temp. I guess it's possible that I am not shutting down the enzymes when I drain my tun before adding any sparge water.

But I swear the method I am using is a knock off of something I got off Denny's website.

the logic on siphoning slowly makes perfect sense. it takes time to let the water drain through the grain to the bottom of the keggle.

i have a sort of off topic question regarding vourlaffing and slow siphoning.... i can get my wort to run clear after vourlaffing a few gallons constantly. but at the end of siphoning my first runs, i start getting lots of grain through the siphon tube. any way to avoid this?

winvarin said:

I have an (only slightly) off topic question. I have been trying my hand at batch sparging for my last half dozen or so beers. Reading through some of the comments on this thread, I am wondering if I am doing it wrong.

When I batch sparge (I do two sparge additions), I completely drain the mash tun of the mash wort before adding any sparge water. I then divide the volume of my sparge water in half. I add the first half to the drained bed, stir and wait about 10 min. Then I recirculate and collect the run off. I then repeat with the second half of my water.

Should I be adding my first sparge to the mash (and mash water) before I take my first runnings? My tun is certainly capable of handling that for most beers. Or should I be draining before I take my first runnings? It seemed to me like that was the only way to accurately figure out how much liquid retention you're getting in the grain.

Then again, I have had a couple of beers recently that attenuated much more than I thought they should given my mash temp. I guess it's possible that I am not shutting down the enzymes when I drain my tun before adding any sparge water.

But I swear the method I am using is a knock off of something I got off Denny's website.

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There are several ways to batch sparge. I will tell you my method...I feel like it is simple and reproducible.

1. Preheat MLT (70qt rectangle cooler with SS braid) with one gallon boiling water. Rock MLT to let water touch the sides of the cooler.
2. Slowly run off preheat water.
3. Heat strike water. I use +16 degrees (eg. a 153F mash equals 170F strike water. I know it sounds high, but it works)
4. When strike water is almost ready, check to make sure that MLT is not draining anymore. Close valve.
5. Add strike water.
6. Add grain. Dough-in.
7. Close lid. Wait three minutes or so.
8. Check mash temp.
9. Heat mash out water. I use beersmith to calculate a round number of gallons to raise the mash temp to 168F. eg. I usually use 1.5 to 2 gallons and then figure out what temp that mash out water needs to be, rather than the minimum amount of boiling water needed. This keeps me from having to measure 1.79 gallons for example.
10. At end of mash, add mash out water, stir and close lid.
11. From experience, I know my grain absorption is between 0.11 to 0.12 gallons per pound of grain. I use this number to estimate the volume of first runnings. For example, if I have a 10 pound grain bill and 5 gallons of water in the MLT (strike plus mashout), then I estimate I will run off 3.9 gallons. I need to collect 8 gallons, so I heat up 4.5 gallons of water to sparge. I usually add a half gallon to my estimate and then take sparge water out of the pot (rather than being short and having to add more water and then heat it up).
12. Vorlauf then collect and measure the volume and gravity of the first runnings, put on burner and start the boil.
13. Add the appropriate volume of sparge water to MLT (8 gallons - 1st runnings volume).
14. Stir then check temperature.
15. Vorlauf then collect 2nd runnings (no need to measure, I know exactly how much I will collect because that is how much I added.
16. Add second runnings to brewpot, stir, and check gravity.

Hope that helps.

Eric