How Many IBU's for my Pale Ale?

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ThinkinDavid

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I have 4 oz. of whole hop Goldings at 5% a.a. and 2 oz. of Spalt at 2% a.a. I was ready to throw them all in evenly in three different intervals but after calculating the IBU's I'm getting a pretty high number (79 IBU). My idea behind the amount and kind of hops comes from Randy Mosher's Radical Brewing. He suggests using lots of low % a.a. hops rather than a little bit of high a.a. I like hops but I find the extreme cat-piss/grapefruit flavor too much sometimes, so while I wouldn't mind having a pretty hoppy pale ale, I also don't want it to be ridiculous. So when is the IBU too high in a pale ale? My recipe is pretty simple, all extract with a pre-boil tea of crystal and biscuit. I might add a half pound brown sugar during fermentation, too.
 
The BJCP style guidelines show IBUs for a pale ale between 30 and 45. They are just guidelines and going a little higher is not a big deal. Once you start going over 50 or so, you will need some more malt to help balance the beer to keep it from getting overly hoppy.

Ed
 
Brewmasters Warehouse said:
They are just guidelines and going a little higher is not a big deal.

Ed
Click to expand...

Thanks for the awesome reference Brewmasters Warehouse. I now know a good range to try to keep my IBU's in, but I'm still wondering how these low alpha acid hops are going to affect my beer. The whole point in my getting them was so that I could make my beer real nice and hoppy without having to worry about that harsh, grainy high alpha acid hop taste.

Right now I'm thinking of aiming for the mid 50's with my IBU's, and if need be I'll add a little more malt or some kind of sugar (any suggestions?), I have 7 1/4 pounds of light extract at the moment. I wouldn't mind turning this into a slightly Extra Pale Ale (anyone had Odells seasonal?).
 
As a comparison, Bell's Two Hearted is around 55 IBUs just to give you some idea what your numbers mean. Based on what you say you want, I don't think you are going to be very happy with 79 IBUs unless ending up with an IPA is something that you like. However, like Ed said, you will need to account for that and bump your malt character to give you some balance.
 
ThinkinDavid said:
Right now I'm thinking of aiming for the mid 50's with my IBU's, and if need be I'll add a little more malt or some kind of sugar (any suggestions?), I have 7 1/4 pounds of light extract at the moment. I wouldn't mind turning this into a slightly Extra Pale Ale (anyone had Odells seasonal?).
Click to expand...


You can find all of the style guidelines at BJCP. With the mid 50s you may not need to adjust anything and let the beer just be more hoppy. If you go higher than you would need more malt. Stay away from sugar in a pale ale as it will only dry it out.

This is a good reference guide to use when trying to decide how hoppy the beer is going to turn out.

gravity_hops_ratio.jpg
 
I've never been a big fan of that chart and find it to be too vague. I guess it's a good very general guide, but a 1.055 brew with 37 IBU's is not something I would consider "extra hoppy." Especially if there's a good level of Crystal malt in there. But we all experience beer differently, so that's just me.
To the OP - I think a well spread out addition of those hops in the range you're thinking of will work out pretty nicely.
 
I agree the chart is just a general guide. I use it more for malty and balanced beers than I do for Pale Ales and IPAs. I am a pretty big hophead so it needs to be extra hoppy by the chart before I would consider a beer hoppy. When I make IPAs the chart does not help as I shoot for between 75-100 IBUs pretty consistently. A lot of taste is perception that is different from person to person so a chart like this loses some value.
 
jacksonbrown said:
I've never been a big fan of that chart and find it to be too vague. I guess it's a good very general guide, but a 1.055 brew with 37 IBU's is not something I would consider "extra hoppy."
To the OP - I think a well spread out addition of those hops in the range you're thinking of will work out pretty nicely.
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jacksonbrown, I think this is the advice I've been looking for. I appcreciat the graph from Brewmasters but I'm not sure how much I should trust it. Like you said, what they consider "extra hoppy" doesn't seem very hoppy. Then there is the fact that the actual IBU is not the same as percieved bitterness. The whole point in my experiement here is to play with higher quantities of low-alpha hops; the chart does not seem to take this into consideration. The inspiration for this comes from Randy Mosher who suggests, "If you want a nice hop flavor and aroma, use high quality low-alpha hops, and lots of 'em" (Radical Brewing 52). Like I've said, I like hoppy, I just don't want to ruin my beer with that raw flavor of high-alpha hops. And with that said, I don't want my pale ale to be under hopped, either.

So here's what I'm still wondering which I don't think has been answered: by bringing my IBU's up to, say, 60-70 with low-alpha hops will I be turing my pale ale into an IPA, or could it be that even at such IBU levels it will turn out perfectly hopped with low alpha hops?
 
What calculation are you using? When I dump all your hops in at 60 minutes for a 3 gallon boil for a 5 gallon batch with 7.5 # of DME, I only get 55 IBU's in my calcs. That leaves you no hops for flavor or aroma. IMHO, use a clean bittering hop like a warrior or magnum for your bittering and save your low aa hops for flavor and aroma, which is Mosher's point, IIRC. I haven't read that book in a while.
 
beerkrump said:
IMHO, use a clean bittering hop like a warrior or magnum for your bittering and save your low aa hops for flavor and aroma, which is Mosher's point, IIRC. I haven't read that book in a while.
Click to expand...

I think you've missed the point with Mosher. In the part I cited earlier he says, "My personal opinion is that there are few legitimate homebrew uses for high-alpha hops... I usually stay away from them, although I perversely enjoy them as aroma hops in American-style IPAs." What I'm trying to do is pull off a full, yet balanced, hoppy pale ale. This is how I came up with my original 79 IBU, I was thinking three additions using pellet hops for the aroma, which seems to make a big difference in the numbers:

1st addition: Golding whole (60 mins)
2oz. X 5AAU X 23% X 15.8 = 36.34 IBU

2nd addition: Golding whole (60 mins)
2 oz. X 5AAU X 16% X 15.8 = 25.28 IBU

3rd addition: Spalt pellets (5 mins)
2 oz. X 2AAU X 28% X 15.8 = 17.7 IBU

Total 79.32 IBU

please check my math :D
 
ThinkinDavid said:
1st addition: Golding whole (60 mins)
2oz. X 5AAU X 23% X 15.8 = 36.34 IBU

2nd addition: Golding whole (60 mins)
2 oz. X 5AAU X 16% X 15.8 = 25.28 IBU
Click to expand...

Is one of these a typo?

I was making a few suppositions...(these may be wrong)
5 gallon boil and final volume
You mention 7.5 # of extract, so OG = 1.068

If you are using the simplified calculation from "How to Brew"..

Golding - 60 min
2 oz * 5aa * 0.195 *15 = 29.25

Golding - 20 min (I am guessing this for a flavor addition)
2 oz * 5aa * 0.119 *15 = 17.85

Spalt - 5 min
2 oz * 2aa * 0.040 *15 = 2.4

total IBU = 49.5

Your 60 min and (I'm guessing) your 20 min additions are not going to contribute much aroma as all the volatile compounds will be driven off in the boil.
 
Your right, that was a typo. I originally meant for the second addition to be a 30 min addition. Either way, you seem to be getting lower utilization percentages than me, I'm not sure why, if it's different graphs we're looking at or what. Although, we do seem to get the same utilization for the spalt, except that I am using pellets with those so I understand you are suppose to add 24% to the utilization, which has a dramatic effect on my final IBU number. Thanks for checking.
 
Here's the link to the site I used, How to Brew. Utilization is directly related to the time boiled and the gravity of the wort. The short the boil and higher the gravity the lower the utilization. Also, the utilization difference between pellets and whole cone hops is really small to be almost negligible.

Also, check out the section in 'How to Brew' on hop characteristics and flavors. I think that you may be mistakenly confusing high alpha acid hops with intensely flavored hops. The "extreme cat-piss/grapefruit flavor" is not from the AA's, but other compounds. Some of the highest AA hops contribute very little flavor and are desired as bittering hops because of these traits. If you stick with European hops, you should get flavor profiles that are more along the "earthy and spicy" flavors and not the "citrusy/piney/floral" notes that come from many popular American hops. From what you have described, look up a few recipes for English IPAs and I think you'll find beers that are akin to what you are wanting.
 
Thanks for the link beerkrump, however, I do have several sources to help me figure this out. Yeah, I’m showing what an amateur I am, but that’s why I brought it here to the forums. As far as the calculations go, I am actually using 7 1/4 lbs. of LME, not DME. I was anticipating a lower gravity than you, but at this point, I’m not too worried about it. Also, it seems to me that hop pellets make a world of a difference, utilizing 25% more than whole hops they have a much larger effect with questionable quality.

Although, what I’m really interested in here is low-alpha vs. high-alpha hops. I am looking at the hop characteristics and flavors on the site you just gave me and I don’t think it disconfirms what I have read from Mosher. His advice is simple, “f you want a nice hop flavor and aroma, use high-quality low-alpha hops, and lots of ‘em” (Radical Brewing 52). I’m wondering how the perceived bitterness differs in low-alpha vs. high-alpha hops, not just the calculated IBU. It could be that I am confused on the matter; perhaps perceived bitterness only varies from ale to ale, not hop to hop. But I'm thinking that it just might. Such as with the Gravity/Hops Ratio graph that was posted earlier, if I use lots of low-alpha hops to match the IBU’s of just a little bit of high-alpha hops, no doubt there will be a noticeable difference in the flavor and aroma of the beer, thus the entire point of this thread.

The problem I find with International Bittering Units is that they will tell you how hoppy your beer is but can’t tell you how this will taste. The stupid thing about this is that bitterness is a perceptive thing. It’s not like a rock sitting out in a field which you can point to, but I feel like that’s how it’s being treated here. As if you just put a dot on the graph and that’s how your beer will be, it doesn’t work like that.
 
Here's a chart from BYO. It lays out what hops are appropriate for each style. From your description, look at the English Bitter/ Pale Ale hops.

Yea, IBU's can be confusing. It has to be combined with the ABV and OG to really get a handle on the beers bitterness.

Can you list a couple of beer that have a flavor or character that you enjoy/ aspire to mimic? That way we can give you some pointers toward what hops would give you that profile.
 
Beerkrump, you are a champ for going through all this with me. The BYO chart leads me to another question: hops will bitter my beer, so why restrict certain hops to certain beers. Is that “s” word, style, going to limit my imagination or direct me toward better brew? Today is brew day, and I plan to use the hops I initially mentioned, which are not on that chart.

Lately I have had some IPAs and Pale Ales that as I drink it I say, ‘that’s the high alpha acid that I want to avoid.’ So here are some pale ales that I do enjoy:

Sierra Nevada Pale Ale
Deschutes Mirror Pond
Odell 5 Barrel (favorite)
Odell Seasonal Extra Pale Ale
Flying Dog Classic
 
His advice is simple, “f you want a nice hop flavor and aroma, use high-quality low-alpha hops, and lots of ‘em” (Radical Brewing 52). I’m wondering how the perceived bitterness differs in low-alpha vs. high-alpha hops, not just the calculated IBU.
Click to expand...

It seems Mosher is talking about 'flavor and aroma' and you're making the leap to 'bitterness'. But maybe there is a difference in perceived bitterness from low-AA vs. high-AA hops.

Also, to me the term 'hoppy' refers more to flavor/aroma than bitterness.

I'm not sure how much I agree with his statement though. I think Magnum/Galena are great bittering hops and Centennial (among others) is great for bittering ,flavor, and aroma. Many high-AA hops are great flavor/aroma hops. And I've heard several experienced brewers say that the type of bittering hop doesn't make that much difference as long as the IBUs are comparable.
 
SpanishCastleAle said:
It seems Mosher is talking about 'flavor and aroma' and you're making the leap to 'bitterness'. But maybe there is a difference in perceived bitterness from low-AA vs. high-AA hops.

Also, to me the term 'hoppy' refers more to flavor/aroma than bitterness.
Click to expand...

SCA, please elaborate on this statement. How exaclty does flavor/aroma differ from bitterness? I understand that when we use the hops at different stages we extract different qualities from them, but nevertheless, it is all hops and hops are essentially bitter. It seems to me that if they were two very seperate things one wouldn't even add the final aroma hops into their IBU calculation. Is it my mistake for thinking that an IBU stands for a unit of bitterness no matter where it gets calculated into the formula?

Perhaps I did not cite this part of Mosher earlier, but it is his point to use larger and larger quantities of low-alpha hops in each later hop addition becuse so little comes from those short boil times. Thus it is also his point to use low-alpha hops so as to get all the desired bitterness without the harsh flavor of high-alpha hops.
 
Castle - Do a 60 minute boil with equal AAU's of Magnum and Chinook and you'll notice the differences between clean and harsh bittering.

TD - From our conversation, you seem to enjoy mildly hoppy ales that don't assault the senses and don't have that crazy tongue strangling bitterness. I think if you took the hops you have now and try this to get a well balanced aroma and flavor profile.

2 oz Golding @ 60 for bittering

Take all four oz of your remaining hops and mix them up and parse them into four equal parts (1 oz each).

Add 1 oz at 20, 10, 5, and flame out. This will evenly distribute your flavor and aroma hops and make a real nice hop forward profile.

Just my 2¢.

I just realized that at the bottom of this page in the 'Similar Threads' is one on SNPA and IBU's.
 
TD - I didn't see that last post. You sound like you are really interested in making good beer and understanding the ins and outs. Seriously read the whole site I linked earlier, 'How to Brew'. It is a web based version of John Palmer's book and a resource I reference all the time.
 
SCA, please elaborate on this statement. How exaclty does flavor/aroma differ from bitterness?
Click to expand...
Hop flavor and hop aroma don't really have much if any bitterness.

Smell your hops. That's aroma and while aromas do affect our perception of flavors you don't get a bitter taste in your mouth just from smelling the aroma of hops.

I won't be able to explain nearly as well as something like Palmer's book so I'll stop there but hop bitterness/flavor/aroma are three different, yet related, things.

Castle - Do a 60 minute boil with equal AAU's of Magnum and Chinook and you'll notice the differences between clean and harsh bittering.
Click to expand...
I don't doubt it beerkrump but I've never bought Chinook because I've heard it was harsh. But you yourself said that Magnum is 'clean' and that seems to be contrary to what Mosher was saying. Seems he is saying ALL high-AA hops are harsh which, if he is, I don't agree with. I agree with you about Magnum...clean and not harsh. Galena I've heard is really clean too but that'll have to wait until I use up this pound of Magnum.
 
Your right on the nose with the Galena. Warrior is really clean,too. For Chinooks, IIRC, Arrogant Bastard Ale form Stone Brewing uses exclusively Chinooks in that recipe.
 
So I ended up doing almost exactly what you recommended, beerkrump. I was going to do a 30 minute boil instead of 20 but slacked on the mixing so it turned into a 25 minute boil for the second addition. I also added 3/4 lb. of Jaggery just to make sure I was having fun. The O.G. was 1.056. I haven't actually done the exact math yet but with two faulty equations I have done I'd estimate a total of about 60 IBU. What does that even mean? I'm nto sure after all this, but I'm going to read up on my Palmer and experiment with some hops. Thanks for the help :mug:
 
ThinkinDavid said:
SCA, please elaborate on this statement. How exaclty does flavor/aroma differ from bitterness? I understand that when we use the hops at different stages we extract different qualities from them, but nevertheless, it is all hops and hops are essentially bitter. It seems to me that if they were two very seperate things one wouldn't even add the final aroma hops into their IBU calculation. Is it my mistake for thinking that an IBU stands for a unit of bitterness no matter where it gets calculated into the formula?

Perhaps I did not cite this part of Mosher earlier, but it is his point to use larger and larger quantities of low-alpha hops in each later hop addition becuse so little comes from those short boil times. Thus it is also his point to use low-alpha hops so as to get all the desired bitterness without the harsh flavor of high-alpha hops.
Click to expand...

I think you're looking at hops from a one dimensional, Alpha Acid point of view. Depending on when you add hops you get different things. Early additions extract AAs and Beta Acids which contribute to bitterness. The bitterness counters the sweet maltiness of the grains. Some hops are said to give more of a harsh bitterness than others. This is due to the AA to BA ratios and the amount of Cohumulone. Typically hops with AA:BA ratios closer to 1:1 and low cohumulone produce a cleaner bittering. From what I've read cohumulone affects how harsh the hop is vs the AA:BA ratio.

When you're adding your finishing or aroma hops, you're looking to extract the volitile oils from the hop that give the hop smell and flavor. You're not really concerned with AA or BA as much. These oils boil off very quickly and that's why you add them very late.

Beersmith doesn't add the aroma hops AAs into the IBU calculation. You shouldn't be boiling them long enough to extract much bitterness at all.

For me, I'm going to be using high AA hops for bittering whenever I can and stop throwing $5-6 of Cascades or whatever into the beer vs $2.5 or less of Magnum and also having much less hop waste in the beer or hop bag.

Mike
 
Very interesting blk, I think this is right on the nose of what I'm after. However, I'd like to clarify my interest in the Alpha Acids which has to do with what you're pointing out.

First of all, if you read the beginning of this thread, you'd know the reason I am after low aa hops. You said, "I'm going to be using high AA hops for bittering whenever I can and stop throwing $5-6 of Cascades or whatever into the beer vs $2.5 or less of Magnum and also having much less hop waste in the beer or hop bag." This is contrary to what I am trying. I want to get a very good hop profile, both in flavor and aroma, while avoiding the harsh flavor given from high alpha hops. Apparently, according to the HBT wiki, that harsh flavor comes from Cohumulone, which I had never heard of before you just mentioned it, while the primary alpha acid is actually Humulone. You may enjoy such flavor but I think it takes away from the beer. Sure you might be able to save a couple bucks on high-alpha hops and come out with an IBU that says it will be bitter as such, but I'm thinking if I pay a little more for a couple extra low-alpha hops I might be able to brew a better beer. It amounts to just pennies per beer in the end.

But there is one more thing. I understand the relationship between alpha acids and beta acids differently than you do. The way I understood it (correct me if I'm wrong) is that alpha acids will turn into beta acids when in contact with oxygen, light, and/or heat. I didn't think beta acids were really considered in fresh hops.

What I'm really wondering about is the bitterness (Cohumulone, Humulone) vs. the hop oils. How different are these really? To me it seems like they blend together.
 
One of the things that have been repeated, and you refuse to accept, is that there are hops out there that have high aa's and are not harsh. True, they are not very good, and in most instances poor, as flavoring and aroma hops. But, if you do much researching, you will realize the that hops are categorized into three categories, bittering, flavor and aroma, and dual purpose. The hops mentioned earlier as 'clean bittering' will do as advertised and not add any harsh undertones while balancing your beer economically.

Now, and maybe this is where you are getting confused, many of the best hops for flavor and aroma are low in aa's. Using large volumes of high aa hops for flavoring and aroma can add harshness, but that is desired by some.

I'm sure as you progress in brewing, you will figure out which hops are your favorites. But, know this. Humans have been brewing for ten thousand years and a lot of the knowledge garnered in that time has been passed down. When multiple brewers give you the same advice, it might be a good idea to not just dismiss it, but look into what they are suggesting.

Glad to hear your brew day went well. However, I think your brewing and beer will benefit greatly from reading two books, 'How to Brew' by John Palmer and 'Joy of Homebrewing' by Charlie Papazian.
 
I'm sorry if I appear so hard-headed. I just saw something that caught my interest and I shot for it, still am, it'll be hard to deter me. And while I wouldn't claim to be anything more than an amateur I have had some time to do a little research, as well as taste several beers. I have had and enjoyed the overly hopped, harshly bittered American IPA's. I have used high-alpha hops with great success in some of my very first ales. I have also read through Charlie Papazian's Joy Of Home Brewing a couple times. And yet, when I read Mosher I was inspired, and reading alongside Brew Like A Monk I was doubly inspired. So I have my basics down, I promise. I am aware of everything everyone has been saying about hops here, but I press on because I don't feel as though I've gotten my answer. I don't necessarily expect to get my answer, however, I feel like the more I push back on your responses, the more I reveal for my interests. Sure, it could be that I'm chasing chimeras and I'll stop once I recognize it as such, but until then you never know, maybe I'm on to something. Everyone has acted like when you put in flavor hops and then aroma hops you are adding two entirely separate things, and while you may be adding two different varieties or have the intention of extracting separate elements from the hops, it is still hops your adding with bitter hop resins and, no doubt, bitter hop oils.

Now you are right that in time I will figure out which hops I like more than others, and don't get me wrong, I would use a high-alpha hop if it did my recipe good. But I find the whole 10,0000 years of brewing history questionable. Sure, there has been brewed beverages ever since there has been "man," but the process has changed quite dramatically from our friends the Greeks to our industrial, technological global family. It has been suggested in that Brew Like A Monk Book, not necessarily word for word, that the idea of "style" for your beer may hold you back just as much as you might think it helps to direct you. So what kind of knowledge has been passed down? Sure we know how to brew, but the what appears entirely open.
 

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