Bru'n Water question

First time user with a couple questions.
1.On the Mash Acidification page, does mash water gallons refer to only the mash water or the total water used in mash and sparge?

2.On the same page, does Post Boil Volume in the Batch Wort Volume box refer to actual post boil or "into the fermenter post boil volume"?

3.How do you list Carapils? Base Malt?

4. In the below recipe, a clone of Green Flash West Coast IPA, would you add the 4 oz of acidulated malt? Using 100% RO, if I add 3.9 grams of both Gypsum and Cal Chlor, the spreadsheet puts me at 5.5. 4 oz of acid malt gets me to 5.4. I may 1 more gram of Gypsum to get the sulfates a little higher. Your thoughts?



12 lbs 8.0 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 82.0 %
1 lbs 4.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 2 8.2 %
1 lbs 4.0 oz Carapils (Briess) (1.5 SRM) Grain 3 8.2 %
4.0 oz Acidulated (Weyermann) (1.8 SRM) Grain 4 1.6 %
0.50 oz Simcoe [12.20 %] - Boil 90.0 min Hop 5 20.8 IBUs
0.25 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [15.20 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 6 12.1 IBUs
0.25 oz Simcoe [12.20 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 7 9.7 IBUs
0.25 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [15.20 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 8 9.3 IBUs
0.25 oz Simcoe [12.20 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 9 7.5 IBUs
0.75 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [15.20 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 10 18.1 IBUs
0.75 oz Simcoe [12.20 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 11 14.5 IBUs
1.00 oz Cascade [7.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 12 8.1 IBUs
0.50 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] - Boil 1.0 min Hop 13 1.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Simcoe [12.20 %] - Boil 1.0 min Hop 14 0.8 IBUs
1.0 pkg Dry English Ale (White Labs #WLP007) [35.49 ml] Yeast 15 -
0.50 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Dry Hop 7.0 Days Hop 16 0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Dry Hop 7.0 Days Hop 17 0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Dry Hop 7.0 Days Hop 18 0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [15.20 %] - Dry Hop 7.0 Days Hop 19 0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Simcoe [12.20 %] - Dry Hop 7.0 Days Hop 20 0.0 IBUs

Which water profile are you targeting?

Make sure you are using the current version of the spreadsheet.

1.On the Mash Acidification page, does mash water gallons refer to only the mash water or the total water used in mash and sparge?

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It refers to the total mash water, including any incremental infusions. It should match the Mash Water Volume on the "Water Adjustment" worksheet.

2.On the same page, does Post Boil Volume in the Batch Wort Volume box refer to actual post boil or "into the fermenter post boil volume"?

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I treat it as full volume into the fermenter, less about 1 quart loss with my system. YMMV

3.How do you list Carapils? Base Malt?

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Technically it is a caramel malt, although I do not know if it works in the spreadsheet as the SRM is so light. Since the acid amounts are driven by Lovibond and MCU, I would input as crystal and see what that does.

#4 is really a matter of preference, hence my question about which profile you are targeting. I input your recipe, targeted the "Pale Ale Profile" since it is high in sulfates and should enhance bitterness and dryness.

Assuming a 5 gallon batch, with 4.8 gal total mash water and 2.9 gal sparge. Using NO acid malt, 9.6 grams Gypsum and 1 gram CaCL2 - the estimated mash pH is 5.2. Acid malt is not necessary. This results in 138 ppm Ca, 296 ppm Sulfate and 30 ppm chloride. I would keep some baking soda or slaked lime handy and use a tiny bit in the mash if necessary to prevent going below 5.2. The spreadsheet can help predict how much to achieve 5.3 or 5.4. You may wish to add less Gypsum as that is quite a bit.

There are an additional 5.9 grams Gypsum and .6 grams CaCl2 in the sparge. It doesn't appear you would need any acidification in your sparge water.

What I find interesting here is that I brewed a similar recipe yesterday and pushed out about the same target profile. I have been hesitant to add so much mineral salts to my R/O water - but since my last two pale ales have been missing some bitterness, thought I would give it a try. My grist had no crystal at all, just 2-row, Vienna and Carapils - I hit 5.3 dead on in mash in.

Martin was kind enough to work with me on a walk through of Bru'n Water, the link is below in my signature. You may find it useful as it focuses on building R/O water.

Thank you. I'm on the road right now so I will check my profile i used when I get home tomorrow. I may have an old version as this is my first time using it and I haven't made a donation yet so I don't think I have latest version. I am doing a 90 minute boil with 7.65 gal mash water and 2 .15 sparge water I believe. My numbers aren't close to yours so my profile must be different.

Since the volumes are close, only the distribution of the minerals mash to sparge would really change. Of course, the additions will adjust with your higher starting volume. I found a clone article today for that recipe and it seems to indicate "burton like" water profile, but at half the sulfates. Some research might push you to a different target. The Pale Ale profile sulfate is 300 ppm, if I recall correctly Burton would be nearly 600 ppm. Best of luck! That is a tasty beer! Wish I could get it regularly down here.

Recipe is from Can You Brew It. I've done it before with another calculator. It came out close. Wanted to try this one as it seems more accurate. Using Conan yeast for something different. I'll keep you informed what I end up doing

In reentered my info using pale ale and also amber bitter profiles. I can't get anywhere near your numbers for sparge additions. I must be missing something. I settled on 7.7 gr gypsum in mash, 2.2 in sparge and 3.8 cacl2 in mash and 1.1 in sparge. All the finished water profiles are green with the exception of sulfates which seems to be ok. Being my first time with this calculator, I will err on side of caution. Using another calculator last time I brewed this, I used 6 gr of gypsum and cacl2 in mash and 2 gr each in sparge and beer was ok. Starting to heat strike water soon, so if you read this soon, any thoughts are appreciated.

Will take another swing at it... just need a couple minutes

OK first thing is inputting the recipe in Mash Acidification tab... make sure to choose Adjustment Water as you are using R/O. I did not include the acid malt. I am using the free version to illustrate. We can ignore (for now) the Water Report Input tab as you want to use 100% R/O dilution.



Then go to the Water Adjustment worksheet, select Pale Ale Profile, RO Water for dilution and set the Dilution Percentage to 100%. Begin adding Gypsum and CaCo3 until your sulfate, chloride and calcium is more or less correct. The profile is a suggestion, and you should treat it such. Calcium can have a fairly wide swing - I would prioritize sulfate and chloride in this instance as they have the flavor effect you may want.



Note that I added a tiny bit of pickling lime - I would withhold this and only add it to the mash should my pH drop below 5.2. That 0.8 gram should raise the pH to about 5.3.

Then I went over to the Sparge worksheet.



While it indicates you may need to use a little bit of acid, I would not. R/O is perfectly suited as Sparge water. Given the mineral additions there - the pH should be fine.

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This is how I use the worksheet. Other people may have different opinions. Example: you can toss the sparge additions into the boil if you prefer. Hope this is helpful.

And finally, my favorite worksheet... I print this out for my brewday - helps double check my additions and volumes. And has AJ's cool chart.

I understand now. Only question is that you have Carapils at 23L. I have it as 2L per Rebel Brewer website. Changes ph to 5.3. I guess I am worried since I have never put this much gypsum in a batch before, but I will try it. I dont have any pickling lime.

Good catch there. I should have the carapils set differently - it didn't change the whole scenario much.

I only added alkalinity as a safety net should you fall below 5.2. You could use baking soda instead, but I doubt you will need it.

Agreed that seems a lot of gypsum. First time I used that much yesterday - so hoping it will come out nice and perky. Best advice might be to brew with your additions, and add gypsum to a finished pint later to see if it improves in your opinion. You can dilute gypsum in RO water - I use 1 gram in 100 ml so I can scale the results out for the next batch.

I have used Bru'n water to build my last 6 or so batches with good effect however. Best of luck!

I added the extra gypsum. Sparge additions are going i boil. We will see. I have to trust the spreadsheet and the knowledge and experience the author has which is tons more than I have! It will make beer and that's how you learn. Thanks for your help.

If it helps, I have done two big IPAs with 15-17g gypsum additions and the results were great IPAs. Seeing that much weighed out to go in your strike water and boil kettle feels like a lot but it doesn't come through in any kind of bad/minerally way. Most recently, after adding all of my strike water additions I HAD to taste the water because of the amounts of 'salt' additions I had made, plus acid. The water tasted very close to normal - every so slightly different but nothing bad at all.

I just need more experience. I just started playing with RO last few batches. Big additions just scared me. My pumpkin ale got second place in a small competition so it must be working!

Yeah keep brewing with the spreadsheet.

Remember, you are first choosing the mineral additions for flavor, then leveraging the additional benefit of acid and alkaline contribution to help mash pH. So since this is about flavor - you really need to consider what you like. For some people, that 300 ppm sulfate isn't nearly enough - for others, too much.

Like stpug, been dubious staring at all of the additions some times - but the results have been pretty good for me. Report back and let us know how it worked out!

Out of the kettle, it might have been too much gypsum, but we will see. If you want me to send you some West Coast, pm me your address and I will take care of you for helping me understand. The notes in your signature were very good.

Brewsncrabs said:

I just need more experience. I just started playing with RO last few batches. Big additions just scared me. My pumpkin ale got second place in a small competition so it must be working!

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Big additions scare me too!

I've tried several things, and maybe you can learn a bit from my experience.

Some beers I love (including IPAs) with minimal additions, including gypsum. But there are a couple that I love with 250 ppm of sulfate (just a couple, though!).

For most IPAs and APAs, a more modest addition is to my taste. But- that's exactly the thing! It's to your taste!

What I would do next time is this- be much more modest in sulfate additions, say, 100 ppm. That's still a lot, but not too much. If you find the IPA/APA a bit bland, then try adding a pinch of gypsum to your glass. If it's better, you know you desire a higher sulfate rate.

My favorite IPA recipe (the DFH clone recipe on this site) is awesome with RO water and just a wee bit of sulfate. I added 300 ppm this last time, because I've been experimenting with higher sulfate and liking it- but it was too much. The character of the beer changed, becoming a bit harsh and no longer so quaffable to me. That's the only thing I changed!

Yet, my "summer pale ale" recipe (also in this forum) "popped" and became bright and alive with 278 ppm of sulfate.

You can see that even a standard profile isn't the be-all and end-all. I think the type of hops (perhaps the amount of cohumulone?) plays a part in the balance with sulfate as well.

You will have a good beer in the end. It may not be perfect, but it may be outstanding. Only one way to find out- wait!

That sulfate experiment that Chris Colby promoted and Basic Brewing Radio investigated is an easy thing for any brewer to do to test the effect of sulfate in their beer. Of course, this is most useful in hoppy and bitter beers. Denny Conn did an interview with the Basic Brewing folks last week. Do listen to the podcast and you'll get the gist of what they found. More sulfate is good, but the desirable upper limit is debatable. I have enjoyed 300 ppm for years and found that 100 ppm was totally uninspiring. But I haven't toyed with 200 or 250 ppm.

In the right beers, sulfate is certainly your friend! Do the test for your self...in the glass.

Yooper, you make a good point, and something I don't think was discussed in the "Water" or "Hops" book...

I have heard that noble hops suffer from high sulfate levels, and then assume traditional British hops benefit from high sulfate (Burtonized). It seems that there are various opinions on the uber-alpha varieties from US and NZ.

Example, just did a Nelson Sauvin saison, almost no sulfate, chloride to 50ish. I got a very smooth character, not the bright gooseberry or grape many people report. Definitely unlike any other hop I have used before.

I can think of an experiment, blind tasting, but the sample rate would have to be tremendously large, well beyond homebrew scale to have any real value. It would be a twist on Martin and AJ's add gypsum to a finished beer experiment. Got the wheels churning again.

Brews - I hope that beer turns out well! Wish I had brewed today... It was beautiful outside.

I am definitely NO water authority, and so on those matters I defer to mabrungard and AJdeLange. I totally respect them, and everything I know (what little has stuck in my peabrain) came from them.

But aside from knowledge comes preferences. I have learned from those two water experts that the "best" water profile is the one that makes the beer you like best.

Aside from a few certain beers, I prefer a lower sulfate level. It appears that AJdeLange does also. I brew many American IPAs and APAs, while AJ is more of a continental lager guy. Mabrungard loves American IPAs with a higher sulfate level, and pale ales also. I have a couple of recipes where a higher sulfate is really great- but for most, even my American IPAs, I prefer a more modest amount.

I think that all of us are correct.

Here's the thing- if the sulfate is too low for your taste, the worst that can happen is the beer is a bit bland. It's still a good beer, but the hops bitterness doesn't "pop". I am paraphrasing mabrungard here, and I love the way he explained it. I believe he even used the word "insipid". I hope I did justice to his description.

But if the sulfate is too much for your taste, the beer becomes objectionable. At least to me. So my way of thinking, after learning so much from those water guys, is that "less is more". It's like salt. Undersalted food may not be as awesome as it could be- but it is 10 times better than oversalted food. A little bland, at least for me, is better than too salted in both food and in my beer. You may find yourself totally disagreeing with me of course- and I think that's a good thing as we all have different opinions on what makes something "good".

I do tend to brew according to BJCP style guidelines, with no "weird" or unusual ingredients, if that tells you anything about how boring (or tradition, depending on how you look at it) I am.

Wow what a great thread. I hope others read it and learn as much as I have. The Conan yeast started chewing in about 4 hours and everything looked nice this morning. I agree with Yooper's salt analogy and will take that road in my next brew. Thanks for everyone's contribution! Now if Santa remembers that ph meter, I'll be golden!

Well this brew turned out very well! Shared it with the club last week at our Xmas party and it was well received. Didn't attenuate all the way but that seems to be a problem with Conan yeast. The aromas from this yeast are awesome and I do get peach flavors in the end. Thanks for all your help on this one. I understand water additions a little better now.

Subscribed so I don't lose this. This thread has made the most sense to me about water additions thanks!

Brewsncrabs,

So glad this turned out for you, and HOPE that Santa brought that pH meter for Christmas. The APA I mentioned managed to carb perfectly for Christmas, and I have to say it is one of the best pales I have ever brewed. The bitterness has just a bit of a bite and the hoppy (cascades) aroma and flavor from the late additions and dry hopping is right there in good balance with the malt. I believe I have nailed down my house APA recipe (finally!). Now I can play around with different hop additions, or twist the base malts up.

I think that everyone's points still holds - that sulfate levels in particular are a matter of preference, and that there is no one size fits all approach. I would still encourage you to explore different levels of sulfates and chloride, as well as to dive in a bit deeper in managing your mash and boil pH. I have also been experimenting adding gypsum solutions to finished beers of different kinds (as both AJ and Martin suggest). The effect can be quite striking, and can also ruin a well balanced beer.

Best of luck and Happy New Year!

Mcrispen,

I didn't get the ph meter for Xmas but I got enough cash to get it AND a Blichmann burner as well. Just have to figure out which meter.