2P-Twent-E: the new Brouwerij Boerderij Kabouter

Boerderij_Kabouter said:

20 amp. 120 VAC.

McMaster #8036K2


In the grand scheme it isn't much, but compared to $4 for a regular outlet it is a lot. Those small upgrades add up quick as I am sure you know.

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Kettles are expensive, but the small details kill you

Yep. A full build only costs about $400-500 if you leave out all the details. $20 on wire here, wire stripper there, oops, I need some screws, etc. The little things are the hidden cost.

Also, it is impossible to not buy some new tools. I just bought a new step bit that goes up to 1.25 inches. It looked so nice

Boerderij_Kabouter said:

Yep. A full build only costs about $400-500 if you leave out all the details. $20 on wire here, wire stripper there, oops, I need some screws, etc. The little things are the hidden cost.

Also, it is impossible to not buy some new tools. I just bought a new step bit that goes up to 1.25 inches. It looked so nice

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Yah, soldering irons, punches, stubby screwdrivers, teflon tape, 70 feet of wire, wood screws, epoxies ahhhh THIS IS WHY I have a full parts list with everthing that it took to build this thing...

The Pol said:

THIS IS WHY I have a full parts list with everything that it took to build this thing...

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Yep. So far so good. I didn't buy enough wire though. Can't win 'em all.

Whoo hoo. I just got the rest of the wire I need. I should make some progress tonight!

:EDIT: I have actually been finding project time this week! Crazy I know. Anyway, the PID and all switches are wired. I need to do some soldering tonight and wire up the remaining two outlets and the box is done. So far I am pretty happy with my wiring. It should look pretty good.

The box is all done except the fan! I am still figuring out the best way to install the fan.

If anyone has any idea about how I should do it to be as-close-to-code as possible let me know. Right now I am thinking of installing "splash shield" above the fan inlet and outlet ports so any falling or splashed water wouldn't enter the fan...

I would love some suggestions.

The box is done!!! (except the fan....)

I updated the initial posts with more install info and pics. I also posted about my power cords and sensor.

Prost!

What is your plan for sanitizing the immersion coil for cooling? With the way the coil is attached to the lid, either you will be boiling for the last few minutes with the lid on, or will have to use some chemicals. Or do you believe that adding the lid (and coil) at flameout will be sufficient to sanitize the coil?

I will sanitize the coil with starsan. You could also dip the coil int he pot without covering it with the lid. Star San in a spray bottle is just really easy.

You really should consider ditching the soldered ground wires to the lid and use ring terminals and a bolt.

evanmars said:

You really should consider ditching the soldered ground wires to the lid and use ring terminals and a bolt.

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Why?567890

evanmars said:

You really should consider ditching the soldered ground wires to the lid and use ring terminals and a bolt.

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I wondered about that too when I saw the pic. I am sure it will work just fine like that but it seems like it would be a durability issue. It may not stay on there forever.

I would at least consider another option if you plan on getting a UL listing. I think I remember a thread where you were asking about that.

So the issue is the solder joint breaking away? Hmmm.... I did the solder because I figured it would be a better connection. Oh well.

Next time

It sounds like UL listing is crazy expensive and not worth my time. I may still be interested in it at some point. I am interested in being as close to code and safety regulations as possible. I love learning about this stuff!!!

Unless you're beating the crap outta that toolbox I think it'll stay just fine. That is, as long as the area has been properly prepped!

Well, I scraped down to bare metal. Then I tinned the area with solder, fluxed the crap out of it, and soldered the wires down. I think the connection is good for a solder connection.

I am surprised a screw or bolt is a better option, I would have thought a screw was more likely to come loose. Plus, this way nothing is sticking through the box.

Boerderij_Kabouter said:

Well, I scraped down to bare metal. Then I tinned the area with solder, fluxed the crap out of it, and soldered the wires down. I think the connection is good for a solder connection.

I am surprised a screw or bolt is a better option, I would have thought a screw was more likely to come loose. Plus, this way nothing is sticking through the box.

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Aesthetically it is better but with a bolt you can put a lock washer on it and it should never come loose.

Sounds like you prepped it right. I am sure you will not have any problems. It should be fine.

But for future builds and reference, it is better to ground via a bolt with a lock washer.

Boerderij_Kabouter said:

But for future builds and reference, it is better to ground via a bolt with a lock washer.

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FWIW I think the solder joint is fine, and if it comes loose you could always replace it with a bolt/nut combo or re-solder it. If you were to market the concept or make it a UL listed "Appliance" you'd probably have to use a block or bolt.

Either way, it kicks ass!!! :rockin:

Ditto to the above. Didn't mean to be cryptic.
Also, probably not as much of an issue with a ground wire, but in a current carrying conductor, it is definitely not a good idea.
If the solder connection starts to deteriorate, the resistance at the junction goes up. When resistance goes up, temperature follows. When the temp goes up, the solder connection gets weaker, increasing the resistance. Vicious cycle kinda thing.

for the fan remember the chimney effect. inlet low exhaust hi. and better to draw fro both sides and exhaust in the center

Any updates??

I am actually working on another system right now for HBT member SuperiorBrew. That has taken over all my project time... sorry.

I will have some very sexy pictures of that build soon though... It will be a DITCHES brewery.

Boerderij_Kabouter said:

I am actually working on another system right now for HBT member SuperiorBrew. That has taken over all my project time... sorry.

I will have some very sexy pictures of that build soon though... It will be a DITCHES brewery.

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Prepping for your own dream build I see? Can't wait to see the pics!

Pretty much. This thing is pretty unreal, spared no expense. Rich (SuperiorBrew) is going to have one of the best systems around IMO.

Are you taking requests? Shoot, I'll have to start saving up! Post some pics of this super system you're talking about!

I am willing to consider requests. I have to finish Rich's DITCHES build, then finish my own brewery, but in maybe 3 months I could start a new build for someone.

To be upfront, the cost of the 2P-Twent-E as designed here would be about $2,000-$2,500. I don't know yet, but will have a production cost for you all when I am finished.

You can see the other build here:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/superiorbrews-ditches-172520/

Really getting the itch to finish this build. No funds at all though... BOO

I have a few brews I really want to get going and I have 2/4 taps running dry with nothing in the pipeline at all. Yikes.

It needs to be summer and I need to get this round of bills paid for. I am dying. At least I have Rich's build to fiddle with and keep me going.

The 2P-Twent-E just kills me because it is so close to being done. 1 day of work and it would be brewing.

Did you finish the build?

Thanks for the photos on your wiring, they were really helpful. I'm working on a build inspired by your DITCHES. Good stuff man, keep it up.

Oh, and your neutral power block has neutral spelled wrong

Ok I copied the 2p-Ewent-E control box almost verbatim. Everything was going along swimmingly, got 3-4 brews under my belt with the box. Last weekend had a brew day lined up got everything measured out ready to rock and bam no power to the rims element. Scoured through all the wiring nothings changed ok looks good. Took off the jumpers and pid settings to trigger the alarms to kill the element power just to simplify. Maybe that's crossing up somehow, no go still no power. Must be the ssr is shot. Yeah that's it. Order a new ssr from Aubers got here today wired it up no go...AAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHH.

Ideas, things to check? I got two grain bills from BrewMasters Warehouse sitting in my fermentation chamber, crushed, and I want(need to get this problem solved. Any help is most appreciated

southpawbrew said:

Ok I copied the 2p-Ewent-E control box almost verbatim. Everything was going along swimmingly, got 3-4 brews under my belt with the box. Last weekend had a brew day lined up got everything measured out ready to rock and bam no power to the rims element. Scoured through all the wiring nothings changed ok looks good. Took off the jumpers and pid settings to trigger the alarms to kill the element power just to simplify. Maybe that's crossing up somehow, no go still no power. Must be the ssr is shot. Yeah that's it. Order a new ssr from Aubers got here today wired it up no go...AAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHH.

Ideas, things to check? I got two grain bills from BrewMasters Warehouse sitting in my fermentation chamber, crushed, and I want(need to get this problem solved. Any help is most appreciated

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Dead Element?

Do you have a multi-meter? That would really help to find the problem. I feel bad, I thought you were sure it was the SSR. It could be a dead element. I know that they can fail, even if you don't burn them dry.

If you have a multi-meter (or are willing to buy one, even a cheapo will work for hobby projects liek this), check the output from the PID, it should be 12v. Then, if that is working, check the output of the SSR when it is switched on. That should read 115vac or whatever you are pushing through from the wall.

Have you checked the fuses? Those are there for a reason... maybe you burned it. If so, first check to make sure a the proper fuse was there, then try to determine what would have drawn enough current to burn it.

Boerderij_Kabouter:

Thanks for all your help, the box is solid I have something a miss and I just can't nail down what it is. It's not the box's fault he's ready to power through all the brews I have lined up :rockin: I feel like I'm letting him down.

If you have a multi-meter I do have a multi-meter and checked the output of the PID (5V) Ok there's an issue. Could it be a setting in the PID? I also notice that the LED light in the element switch is dim when in the on position. It has been dim from the beginning but functioned properly. I put a call into Auber looking for some help.

Check the output of the SSR when it is switched on. No output at all. The light on the SSR lights on/off in conjunction with the PID output light but no power to the element outlet. There is 115v power supplied to the input on the ssr.

It could be a dead element. The element is still good. It works when plugged into my other 20 amp outlet no tied to the ssr/pid control.

Have you checked the fuses? Last night I replaced the 20amp fuse on the circuit to the element plug. Looked fine but I replaced it just in case.

Definately sounds like your PID is malfunctioning somewhere, I'm sure the folks at Auber will get you squared away.

Hmmm..... the Auber SSR's should switch with anything over 3VDC. Seems odd that it is not switching.

Do you have the Auber PID (http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=3)? If so, it should be sending 12vDC to the SSR. That seems odd. If it isn't that PID, then it could be a 5v output model and everything is normal.

Do you have a power supply you could test the SSR with?

What a pain, I am sorry this happened to you. Putzy problems like that drive me mad.

Yeah the Syl 2352 that's the pid I have the new ssr 25 amp also came from auber. Could I just use a 12v wall wort take the + and - and attach to the ssr to test? Is there a way to reset the pid to factory settings to see if that corrects something. Couldn't find that in the manual

I don't know of a reset. I would call Auber, they are super helpful.

Got an e-mail back from Auber. There tech was out of the office today. Have to say the information may be helpful but I need help interpreting the info to make it relevant to the control box:

We never wired the SSR output like you did. There seems two potential problems. 1) if the diode has a low break down potential , the 240 V will be added to the internal transistor and damage it. 2) the output of the SSR control has only limited capacity. It might not be able to drive the diode you have.
Here is how the SSR control output design.

The output driver is a 9013 transistor with a 200 ohm current limit resistor. The power to the transistor is 9V, not 12 V. The open circuit of the output is 8V, not 12V. If your load resistance is 200 ohm, the output will drop to 4V due to the internal current limit resistor.
I hope that helps.

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Questions:

1. In this context is the diode referring to the item being switched (the element)?

2. He refers to the "240v being added to the transistor and damage it" where is the 240v coming from? This set up is only running on 110v. The "transistor" he refers to would be within the PID?

What did you send them? That is confusing? Any EE's want to chime in?