conducting an experiment between bread yeast vs sweet mead yeast in mead

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

STLExpat

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2012
Messages
137
Reaction score
1
Location
Lexington Park
I was looking to make a mead for Christmas, and after reading the feedback I got on anther thread I decided to conduct a little test. I'm making two one gallon batches of what I'm calling my Spiced Orange Christmas Mead, and using Flieschman's bread yeast in one and Wyeast Sweet Mead yeast in the other. Grain bill is the same for both.

1 whole orange
1 peeled orange
1 cinnamon stick
pinch nutmeg
3.5 pounds clover honey
Contents of one vanilla pod
 
I was looking to make a mead for Christmas, and after reading the feedback I got on anther thread I decided to conduct a little test. I'm making two one gallon batches of what I'm calling my Spiced Orange Christmas Mead, and using Flieschman's bread yeast in one and Wyeast Sweet Mead yeast in the other. Grain bill is the same for both.

1 whole orange
1 peeled orange
1 cinnamon stick
pinch nutmeg
3.5 pounds clover honey
Contents of one vanilla pod
A reasonable experiment to try. One thing I would suggest is that you made a starter with the Wyeast sweet mead yeast. It probably is fine, but it's known to be a PITA and quite finicky to use. A little research would show you that it's known for stuck ferments, or even not starting at all.

Also, I suspect you'll get a better batch from the bread yeast. Proper JAO has been measured by some and they've managed to get 12 to 13 %ABV out of it. If you treated both batches to the same technique i.e. daily aeration etc, and even a little energiser, then I suspect it would out perform the sweet mead yeast which has a tolerance of 11%

One of the things that I believe causes the sweet mead yeast some issues is osmotic shock, so as you'd still get a result it might be better to reserve 1lb of honey on that batch and keep it a bit lower to start with and then put the other 1lb in later on.
 
Thanks for the tips, much appreciated. Just took a gravity reading on the bread yeast batch, it's sitting at 1.14. I've got some yeast energizer that should be here tomorrow or Tuesday, got a feeling I may be needing it.
 
it might be better to reserve 1lb of honey on that batch and keep it a bit lower to start with and then put the other 1lb in later on.

But then he would not be performing a balanced experiment. Since his goal is to see what occurs using two different yeast strains on identical solutions, then everything from initial ingredients and how they are put together to final results must be identical to get valid results.

If he has further interest and ambition after this group he could try doing another test the way fatbloke described, but he would have to change the solution for both of the yeast strains to be able to show trending in yeast managment.
 
But then he would not be performing a balanced experiment. Since his goal is to see what occurs using two different yeast strains on identical solutions, then everything from initial ingredients and how they are put together to final results must be identical to get valid results.

If he has further interest and ambition after this group he could try doing another test the way fatbloke described, but he would have to change the solution for both of the yeast strains to be able to show trending in yeast managment.
No, indeed not, but when dealing with a yeast as finnicky as Wyeast sweet mead, it might be the only way to go i.e. slight differences in the management technique being the only way of getting a result worthy of comparison, as long as the ingredients used for both batches were the same. How they're actually used might be different. Yet still giving a result to compare both batches once finished.

Hell, it might be that it's just necessary to make a starter for the sweet mead yeast. I'd still check the numbers for a batch that will finish at 11% ABV, that way other variables will be negated as they'd be the same for both batches. Hence a result for taste comparison....
 
I look forward to reading your results here. I did not realize the bread yeast could perform as well as the mead yeast.
 
fatbloke said:
A reasonable experiment to try. One thing I would suggest is that you made a starter with the Wyeast sweet mead yeast. It probably is fine, but it's known to be a PITA and quite finicky to use. A little research would show you that it's known for stuck ferments, or even not starting at all.

After reading this, another idea that entered my mind was making a third batch with White Labs sweet mead yeast. I'm also seriously considering adding a yeast energizer as well based off the initial gravity reading. From what I have learned in my first couple months of brewing a reading of 1.14 is pretty high and the yeast will need some help, however if I am wrong in this due to still being a newb please tell me.

I checked the fermentor this morning and saw that some of the vanilla was in the airlock's inner tube, more than likely I'm going to have a blowout on my hands when I swing by home for lunch. Looking back I'm pretty sure I didn't leave enough headspace. I'll post pictures later today.
 
Yep, we have a blow-out. Just checked on it and the airlock was full of junk and it had spilled out some. Switched over to a hose (really glad I thought ahead and sanitized one recently)

ForumRunner_20120409_115749.jpg

and sanitizer bowl. Lost some of the vanilla though, estimating about half of the pod I scraped out. I'll have to reduce how much I put in next batch so I can keep everything the same
 
Well the white labs yeast, has a higher alcohol tolerance, then the wyeast one (15% for WL, 11% for WY). Plus I haven't heard of anywhere near as many problems with the white labs one (it's not available here so haven't tried it - whereas the Wyeast one is and it was a complete PITA, so I'm not gonna use it again).

As for the blow out, JAO style recipes do seem to foam a lot in the first instance, but usually settle down after a day or two......

And while I make my own vanilla essence, I would have just split the pod and chucked the whole thing in, rather than splitting and scrapping it....
 
I have used the whitelab sweet mead yeast with a similar mead and about six month of aging it was very enjoyable.
 
fatbloke said:
Well the white labs yeast, has a higher alcohol tolerance, then the wyeast one (15% for WL, 11% for WY). Plus I haven't heard of anywhere near as many problems with the white labs one (it's not available here so haven't tried it - whereas the Wyeast one is and it was a complete PITA, so I'm not gonna use it again).

As for the blow out, JAO style recipes do seem to foam a lot in the first instance, but usually settle down after a day or two......

And while I make my own vanilla essence, I would have just split the pod and chucked the whole thing in, rather than splitting and scrapping it....

Yeah, I did a JAOM about a month ago and forgot how much that foamed up. Oh well, it's a learning process. Kinda wished I would have done what you did with the vanilla but I wanted to avoid getting too much vanilla flavor in there. I'll have to wait and see what happens. I may use a whole pod in the future, got an idea for an orange creamsicle mead that I'm aiming to have ready next summer
 
Something just occurred to me. I admit, it's a newb question, but since I'm using liquid yeast, I have to use the whole packet, right? These are only one gallon batches, am I running the risk of over-pitching?
 
STLExpat said:
Something just occurred to me. I admit, it's a newb question, but since I'm using liquid yeast, I have to use the whole packet, right? These are only one gallon batches, am I running the risk of over-pitching?

I've never pitch a whole packet of liquid yeast into a single gallon but I have pitch a whole packet of dry yeast. So I would say that it'll be fine. More time to make alcohol instead of reproducing.
 
STLExpat said:
Something just occurred to me. I admit, it's a newb question, but since I'm using liquid yeast, I have to use the whole packet, right? These are only one gallon batches, am I running the risk of over-pitching?

No, you are barely overpitching, and you won't have any problems...
 
Status update on the experiment. the bread yeast mead has been extremely active and I've lost most of my vanilla in the blow-off tube, so I ended up tossing in the split vanilla pod instead of trying to scape more out and have done the same with the sweet mead yeast batch

ForumRunner_20120412_152444.jpg

Last night I made the sweet mead version of the recipe. And honestly, it may just be from me still being new to the whole brewing process, but using the Wyeast was kind of a pain. When I opened the packet to pitch the yeast, turns out one if the smack packs didn't pop open and I took the risk of infection by using sterilized scissors to open it. I also forgot to account for the amount of liquid going into the must and ended up having to dump some out before setting up the blow-off tube. Wasn't going to make the same mistake using an airlock with that little head space left, and I put the jug in a plastic bag to catch any spills. Gravity was the same as the mead using bread yeast.

ForumRunner_20120412_153147.jpg

This morning I checked on it and it didn't bubble over, but there was no room at the top and minimal pressure was escaping as the liquid level rose and one of the oranges partially blocked the hose, so again I dumped some of the must to give everything a little more breathing room. Not much activity but I haven't looked at it since this morning.

ForumRunner_20120412_153825.jpg


So, as of right now the bread yeast is definitely proving to be more manageable and convenient, but December is still a long way off. I'll update later this afternoon on what the sweet mead yeast batch is doing.
 
Took this a little over a week ago, noticing some different fermentation action between the two. All the fermentation bubbles on the bread yeast batch (left) are concentrated together whereas the bubbles on the liquid yeast batch (right) are not as prominent and are in two separate rings.

View attachment 57906
 
Status update on these. After a couple weeks, the batch using the bread yeast is clearing up a little faster than the one with the sweet mead yeast, however the lighting may be throwing things off a little. Both still have bubbles at the top and in the airlocks, so the fermentation has a ways to go as far as I can tell

ForumRunner_20120503_102003.jpg
 
It is funny. The bread yeast usually has a much lower flocculation rate so the yeast will not clump together and fall to the bottom as readily as most commercial yeast. However it sounds like that the bread yeast is fermenting much faster and the higher alchohol content is allowing for the yeast to settle faster. Fun experiment. Can't wait for tasting results.
 
Arpolis said:
It is funny. The bread yeast usually has a much lower flocculation rate so the yeast will not clump together and fall to the bottom as readily as most commercial yeast. However it sounds like that the bread yeast is fermenting much faster and the higher alchohol content is allowing for the yeast to settle faster. Fun experiment. Can't wait for tasting results.

Me either, only seven more months until Christmas. I told the family about it and they are looking forward to it. Only question is how I'm going to get the stuff once it's bottled back to St. Louis if we don't drive back for Labor Day. I have am idea in mind but I won't say what so I can maintain deniability.

On another note I'm going to try the same kind of experiment in the fall with cider. Thinking Nottingham dry ale yeast vs Wyeast cider yeast.
 
Decided to put these out where I could get more light and see what's going on

ForumRunner_20120505_074652.jpg

Bread yeast one is definitely coming along nicely, however the sweet mead yeast batch is not progressing as well. I may need to toss some energizer in, but I'll defer to the experts. Thoughts?
 
When you say not progressing well fo you mean the level of how clear it is? Have you taken gravity readings? If you are soley going by how clear it is..... Patience my friend. Some meads take a while to clear. I recently had one that was cloudy up untill around the 2 month mark and only really started after I racked off the lees. Just leave it be for the experiment and at the 3 month mark if you take gravity readings and see that the sweet mead yeast pooped out and this is cloyingly sweet you can take that as a result and then try and fix the mead.
 
Seems you are running into the same issue many have the wyeast sweet mead smack pack is a pretty fickle high maintenance yeast, not saying it doesn't make good mead but it is notorious for producing cloyingly sweet stuff and needing constant supervision
 
Ok guys, the fruit has dropped so now it's time for bottling.

ForumRunner_20120721_162103.jpg

Couple things I noticed (can't really tell with these pictures) was that the bread yeast batch had a lighter color than the liquid yeast batch. The way the fruit fell was also different.

ForumRunner_20120721_164133.jpg

With the bread yeast the oranges dropped individually and separate from each other, but with the liquid yeast...



ForumRunner_20120721_164408.jpg

ForumRunner_20120721_164434.jpg

The oranges were all clumped up and stuck together. Some of them looked bound together with what I believe to be krausen, or I'm hoping it is. The peel on one or two pieces looked a little odd.

There was also a difference in smell as well. The bread yeast batch smelled just like honey, oranges and vanilla. The liquid yeast batch had a very strong alcohol, medicinal smell in addition to those scents. Take with a grain of salt, but I'm liking what I see with the bread yeast. I'll find out come Christmas when I serve the results to my family which is better.
 
huesmann said:
Are you sure the smell difference isn't just because the bread yeast didn't produce as much alcohol?

No idea why there is a smell difference to be honest, I'm still pretty new compared to a lot of guys here. There is a taste difference though. The bread yeast batch had a strong alcohol kick to it, while the liquid yeast batch just tasted like honey.
 
No idea why there is a smell difference to be honest, I'm still pretty new compared to a lot of guys here. There is a taste difference though. The bread yeast batch had a strong alcohol kick to it, while the liquid yeast batch just tasted like honey.
Which actually means very little. If you take 2 different wine yeasts, you'd have got differing results. Whether it's different levels of colour, higher levels of "alcohol hot" flavour, greater quantity of gross lees, etc etc.

The experiment at it's most basic, is to use the same ingredients, except the yeast, then probably through tasting, confirm when one or the other is "ready for drinking", while at the same time, highlighting the differences over time i.e. mead A was fine for christmas, yet mead B wasn't and needed nothing more than another 6 months to become good. Or if they're both drinkable at the same time, then highlight other differences in your findings i.e. the colour you already alluded to, or maybe the more obvious differences in taste.

It would be good to have enough info to work out how they actually came out, strength-wise/% ABV etc......

Keep us informed, I'm enjoying reading about the differences etc.
 
Well, opened them up tonight for the family Christmas party. The bread yeast batch was pretty popular, the family members who tried it could distinctly taste the honey first, the orange in the middle, and the cinnamon on the back end. The liquid yeast batch came out good, but the flavors weren't as distinct (the honey was there, but the orange, vanilla and cinnamon were hard to detect), tasted more like a sweet white wine than anything. Overall they were a success, but I think the bread yeast won out on flavor with the family.
 
STLExpat said:
Well, opened them up tonight for the family Christmas party. The bread yeast batch was pretty popular, the family members who tried it could distinctly taste the honey first, the orange in the middle, and the cinnamon on the back end. The liquid yeast batch came out good, but the flavors weren't as distinct (the honey was there, but the orange, vanilla and cinnamon were hard to detect), tasted more like a sweet white wine than anything. Overall they were a success, but I think the bread yeast won out on flavor with the family.

Joe wins again... The recipe is a staple for a reason. Plenty of people try to swap out the bread yeast for wine yeast, thinking that they can outsmart Joe, who explicitly says don't do it.
 
nitack said:
Joe wins again... The recipe is a staple for a reason. Plenty of people try to swap out the bread yeast for wine yeast, thinking that they can outsmart Joe, who explicitly says don't do it.

I agree, my family was very surprised that I used everyday ordinary bread yeast in it, definitely going to be using that from now on and making the Christmas mead a yearly thing
 
Apples to Oranges, each yeast has to have its optimal growing conditions for you to determine which yeast is better. You used the bread yeast the best way to ferment with it, the other you forced to grow like you would the bread yeast instead of how it prefers to grow. A better experiment would be to make the same must and innoculate with each yeast at its optimal growing conditions to figure out which makes the best mead. WVMJ
 
Well after lurking for so long I shall post.
2 batches complete.
1) 350g economy honey, 500g sugar, 500ml value apple juice and 4tbsp bread yeast.
2) 100g honey as above, 500g sugar, 500ml value apple juice and 2tbsp bread yeast.

Left for 2wks, added more sugar ~200g to each and some raisins.
Another 2wks and tried. Tastes like fortified wine and not bready at all.
So decanted 3/4, and added more yeast, sugar and water to remnants.

Cheap second batch or disaster?
 

Latest posts

Back
Top