You aren't learning unless you are experimenting?

I got my first home brew kit as a gift, about 4 years ago. Since, I have purchased whatever supplies I needed if I wanted to try a certain recipe. Usually I do 5 gallon batches in glass carboys, bottle them, and don't bother with recipes that require a secondary fermentation. I might try that next, but as a perfectionist, I would make sure I had all the correct supplies first then just follow the instructions. I buy recipes and follow all the instructions to a T. I've never really thought about what it's doing, until I looked up the info online. I've just always sanitized, measured and followed directions. How boring, I know. But, I've also never had a bad batch.

Anyway, I'm glad I found this place and looking forward to experimenting with some of the things I've learned. I'll take pics as I can.

Thanks for welcoming me in the introductions area, I'm BobbiLynn and I love beer!

Following directions is good practice. You are perfecting the process. If you come across a great recipe, you may have better success than another person.

Well BobbiLynn, it's probably true that you don't learn unless you are experimenting.
When you first started out, it was pretty much an experiment. You had the right ingredients, all the required equipment and instructions, but since you hadn't done it it was pretty much an experiment.
As for secondary fermentation, you will find tons of disagreement about the need for a secondary.

If you've been doing this for four years, you are ready to experiment more.

I don't live near a brew store, so when I was extract brewing I would buy extra extract,hops and grains when I was in town.
After a while, I decided to try an IPA on my own. Pretty straight forward. Pale ale and a strong hop presence. Came out pretty good. Did a couple others using what I had on hand also that came out well. Pretty satisfying to make a great beer that you didn't have a recipe for.
Next came all grain. That's certainly more of an experiment than your first extract batch.

If you want to try experimenting and learning. Think of some other type of beer you like and find a recipe. Give it a try.

Are you extract or all grain brewing?

I think I'd turn it around to "You're not experimenting unless you're learning." I've seen recipes on these boards that are essentially word salad - a bunch of ingredients thrown together with no concept of what they actually do. And I'll confess that my first few recipes were like that. But brewing like that isn't really experimenting. Without some basic technical knowledge, if you have half a dozen or more variables in a recipe it's hard to know what to change if you don't like the result. So what happens is the brewer changes a bunch of ingredients all at once, again with no fundamental knowledge of what they're doing. Often, they'll ask on these boards and get a whole bunch of wildly different responses and then pick a few bits of advice from each, and the resulting recipe is again, word salad.

Read, learn, experiment, take notes, change one or two variables and repeat. (Designing Great Beers by Ray Daniels is my Bible, BTW)

Even though I build all my own recipes I eliminate the guess work by researching tons of recipes on the internet from other brewers who have tried the same styles...eventually you get some tips on who not to do and what may work and then I just run with it.

I am yet to brew an All Grain beer from my own recipe that was not at least "drinkable", some are good and every once in a while I strike gold and find one that is just awesome! To me this is much more rewarding than just buying a recipe off the shelf with no tailoring to your own likes.

Are you extract or all grain brewing?

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Extract! All grain brewing is probably out of my league right now!

I've always been afraid to change anything on a recipe because I didn't want to mess up the ratios and cause the wrong chemical reaction. So now learning what each ingredient actually does... Yeah, I guess if you don't learn this stuff, makes it hard to experiment!

Play around with recipes and get more comfortable. Try something on your own.
After that you probably wont be so intimidated with all grain.
Just start off with exact recipes again doing beer styles that you like.

I followed the instructions on my first two brews (both kits from the LHBS)... Third batch was one I heavily modified. Fourth batch (my only partial mash, went all grain after that) was my own recipe. Since then I've been making my own recipes, working off knowledge I've gained along the way. Some came from reading/research, other from just thinking about things.

I find that brewing is a lot like cooking. While some people need recipes to follow, or they make crap, others can grab some ingredients and make something wonderful. I've been cooking for over 30 years, and I fall into the second category. I will say that I do measure more with brewing than I do with cooking. I also use good tools/software to formulate my recipes. After that, it's all up to the yeast (which I'm rather selective of).

if you aren't learning unless you are experimenting, then i should be learning my butt off.

i have LOTS of experiments going

dadshomebrewing said:

if you aren't learning unless you are experimenting, then i should be learning my butt off.

i have LOTS of experiments going

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This only applies to BREWING related items. What you do at night (behind closed doors, I hope) has no bearings.

BobbiLynn said:

Extract! All grain brewing is probably out of my league right now!

I've always been afraid to change anything on a recipe because I didn't want to mess up the ratios and cause the wrong chemical reaction. So now learning what each ingredient actually does... Yeah, I guess if you don't learn this stuff, makes it hard to experiment!

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Well, you have to remember you're not baking a cake or bread. In a situation like that, there are certain ingredients and ratios that are essential for levening and whatnot in order to actually make a cake. Beer is different. (While there are some exceptions) Most of the ingredients are for flavor/color/aroma, and little else. Most of the ingredients are not "required" and you can have a little or a lot. Don't be afraid to experiment.

Golddiggie said:

This only applies to BREWING related items. What you do at night (behind closed doors, I hope) has no bearings.

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smack

one of the advantages of brewing in 1 gallon batches, i can have quite a few going at the same time

right now

4 assorted pale ales
4 assorted wheat beers
1 pilsner

working on the recipes and shopping lists for a couple brown ales, a porter or two, and maybe a stout.

can you tell i'm on vacation?

BobbiLynn said:

Extract! All grain brewing is probably out of my league right now!

I've always been afraid to change anything on a recipe because I didn't want to mess up the ratios and cause the wrong chemical reaction. So now learning what each ingredient actually does... Yeah, I guess if you don't learn this stuff, makes it hard to experiment!

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You won't cause any wrong chemical reactions. You'll change the taste based on which ingredient you change. Most important thing is to know what each ingredient contributes to the final product.

If you made an omelette you know what ham, onions, cheese, and green peppers each bring to the party, right? You wouldn't fear that it's not an omelette if you omitted the onions, you'd just know that sharp oniony flavor wouldn't be there.

Similarly if you reduce hops, generally you reduce bitterness (or flavor/aroma if it's a later hop addition). Add more crystal malt, darker, sweeter beer, etc.

Study ingredients and see what they contribute. You'll notice some are always in low amounts in most recipes. You'd know not to try to use a ton of those on a whim (like Special B or Biscuit Malt, for instance.).

BobbiLynn said:

I got my first home brew kit as a gift, about 4 years ago. Since, I have purchased whatever supplies I needed if I wanted to try a certain recipe. Usually I do 5 gallon batches in glass carboys, bottle them, and don't bother with recipes that require a secondary fermentation. I might try that next, but as a perfectionist, I would make sure I had all the correct supplies first then just follow the instructions. I buy recipes and follow all the instructions to a T. I've never really thought about what it's doing, until I looked up the info online. I've just always sanitized, measured and followed directions. How boring, I know. But, I've also never had a bad batch.

Anyway, I'm glad I found this place and looking forward to experimenting with some of the things I've learned. I'll take pics as I can.

Thanks for welcoming me in the introductions area, I'm BobbiLynn and I love beer!

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not to be rude, but do you "experiment" when you cook food, or do you follow the recipe to the letter?

some people (my wife) follow the written recipe like it is a "life mission". others (like me) use recipes as a general suggestion.

she absolutely HATES free-lance. even when she wants to get creative, she gets creative by writing everything down, and then executing the recipe she wrote down.

i just toss things in, and if i like it, i write it all down later.

it's just a personal preference.

same way with making beer. you know the basics, and you know the process, now you just need to start stepping out, but only if you are comfortable with it.

Captain Damage said:

I've seen recipes on these boards that are essentially word salad

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Amen to that. One of the best things I think you can do is to start out with the simplest recipe you can imagine (think, for example, a pale ale with 2-row and some crystal, and one type of hops) and make it. Then make it about six more times, and try changing ONE thing about it each time. Add a specialty malt--biscuit, or a light crystal; change the yeast; increase (or decrease your mash temp, or use a multi-step mash; change your fermentation temp, or the time spent in primary, secondary, etc; keep the same hop variety but change the hopping schedule. When I've done this in the past it's been a valuable experience because it helped me focus on my process and to figure out how what I do (as opposed to what ingredients I buy) affects what I make. Then, when you start branching out, you know how each piece contributes to the final product.

45_70sharps said:

When you first started out, it was pretty much an experiment. You had the right ingredients, all the required equipment and instructions, but since you hadn't done it it was pretty much an experiment.

...

If you want to try experimenting and learning. Think of some other type of beer you like and find a recipe. Give it a try.

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This is what I was thinking when I read the title of the thread. As an absolute beginner, I'm still figuring out brewing from an ingredient kit.

My second brew will probably be a slightly more challenging kit, and then perhaps on to a few recipes. A few years from now you might even hear me worrying about my own recipes.

Right now, I'm just taking things one step at a time.

In response to the "word salad" recipes, I see recipes posted all the time in many forums that people put together and post having never brewed them yet.
Most of the time they don't even post a follow up with how it came out. That means FAIL on that recipe to me.

I'm not sure why people would post their recipe when they haven't tried it.
I'm not talking about the ones that want someone to tell them if it sounds like they are on the right track, just plain posting their recipe and it's out there with all the proven ones.

StuOhQ said:

This is what I was thinking when I read the title of the thread. As an absolute beginner, I'm still figuring out brewing from an ingredient kit.

My second brew will probably be a slightly more challenging kit, and then perhaps on to a few recipes. A few years from now you might even hear me worrying about my own recipes.

Right now, I'm just taking things one step at a time.

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A few YEARS?? Wow... I was altering the batches from the first one (modified the first two slightly, third heavily, fourth was all mine).

IMO/IME when you're really ready to experiment with recipes, you'll be brewing all grain. You have complete control over which malts go into the brew that way. You'll also become more selective with your hops and yeasts. Remember, quality in, quality out. Crap in, crap out.

I only follow a recipe if it's in the database and has a lot of comments/high rating, etc. That or someone brews it a few times and comments that they've tweaked it to where they like it now, and it's a basic recipe.

My two recipes are beers I've brewed at least twice. I wish I could brew faster, had more fermenters and kegs, etc. Then I'd brew a bunch of "reliable" recipes all the time and the "new/experimental" recipes as well. Right now most of the time I'm trying a new recipe, a seasonal, etc. and rarely get back to the "old reliables". After having spent hundreds upon hundreds of dollars already, this is why this hobby can be fatal to the wallet...

If you're only learning when you're experimenting, then you're not paying enough attention to what you're doing, or you're only conducting experiments, which is fine.

In terms of brewing, I've done much more brewing of beer than experimenting and have learned a ton through observation, and relatively little through experiments.

I would say that I've learned a TON here, reading this forum. I don't just come on here for a quick question to the experts, I read, and read, and read. I usually know what I'm doing before I ever do it, or at least understand the process and the why/how of it. Then when I get the result I know how I got there. My experience backs up what I've learned here, so it's a dual understanding at this point.

Captain Damage said:

I think I'd turn it around to "You're not experimenting unless you're learning." I've seen recipes on these boards that are essentially word salad - a bunch of ingredients thrown together with no concept of what they actually do. And I'll confess that my first few recipes were like that. But brewing like that isn't really experimenting. Without some basic technical knowledge, if you have half a dozen or more variables in a recipe it's hard to know what to change if you don't like the result. So what happens is the brewer changes a bunch of ingredients all at once, again with no fundamental knowledge of what they're doing. Often, they'll ask on these boards and get a whole bunch of wildly different responses and then pick a few bits of advice from each, and the resulting recipe is again, word salad.

Read, learn, experiment, take notes, change one or two variables and repeat. (Designing Great Beers by Ray Daniels is my Bible, BTW)

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btw... doesn't the concept of "experimenting" sort of imply you know what you are changing and testing, and have some basic expectation of the outcome to confirm or reject?

as opposed to "try it and see what happens"

Way to go BobbiLynn!

Trying your hand at making recipes is a great way to learn. To start, you could take a recipe that you have made before and just tweak one ingredient (more/less/swap with something similar).

Personally, I use the beersmith2 software to help me design recipes to style with the proper ingredients and measurements. I think beersmith cost me around $25. It was well worth the cost. Good luck!

Well, you have to remember you're not baking a cake or bread.

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I treated it like I was baking a cake or bread! I am learning now what things are just flavors, what contributes to fermentation and I think the yeast you use depends on the fermentables you use? I'll stick with just changing flavor. I have 6 recipes kits ordered that will be here Wednesday, I have tried them all before. I'll try mixing things up instead of using each recipe straight up. I have more than one type of crushed grain coming, maybe I'll try mixing them for 2 recipes if the boil times and temps are the same(make both recipes have a more complex flavor). Or I would like to have a really dark brew, there is one recipe kit that's pretty dark and rich, maybe I can pull some ingredients from other kits to make it even darker and richer. Though, actually, I don't really want a different flavor, but more of the same flavor. Could I use a 5 gallon recipe kit to make a 4 or 4.5 gallon batch? And I'll just have a richer beer? Would that make the alcohol content go up to? Will my 6.5 gallon carboy work for 4 or 4.5 gallons? See, I can't even experiment with one little change without questioning whether it will work!

When I cook I don't measure anything, just throw it together. But baking I am terrible at and even frightened of... because of how exact you have to be. I thought brewing beer was somewhere in the middle, but maybe closer to baking because there is yeast involved and all...

Don't fear baking... I make kick-ass pizza from scratch. You measure, to a degree, when it comes to making bread/dough. But, there's a degree of 'freestyle' in that you need to do what it takes to make it right. Sometimes you need to add more flour, sometimes now. You start with the same base, and go from there. I also add herbs and seasoning to the dough while I'm making it. Makes for a much better end product. Some people even use spent grain in the dough to kick it up another level. :rockin: I've added spent grain to bread recipes with great results.

Except I wouldn't really be able to tell if it needed more flour and I'd probably be afraid to add spices to dough mix fearing it would make the dough fall apart, the cheesy pizza falls through the rack and boom, my house is on fire!!

BobbiLynn said:

Except I wouldn't really be able to tell if it needed more flour and I'd probably be afraid to add spices to dough mix fearing it would make the dough fall apart, the cheesy pizza falls through the rack and boom my house is on fire!!

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Wow...

If you've ever made bread before, you'll know if it needs more flour (IMO/IME, it's easy). Adding herbs and seasonings is also easy, since you add them to the liquid ingredients before adding the flour. I don't add cheese to the dough, that goes on top of it right before going into the oven. :rockin:

Do you stay up at night worrying about things? All those "what if" type deals...

If you've ever made bread before, you'll know if it needs more flour (IMO/IME, it's easy). Adding herbs and seasonings is also easy, since you add them to the liquid ingredients before adding the flour. I don't add cheese to the dough, that goes on top of it right before going into the oven.

Do you stay up at night worrying about things? All those "what if" type deals...

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Maybe I was exaggerating but I've never baked bread or even baked a cake. I did try to make a pie once and added sugar and cinnamon to the crust and it DID kind of flake apart. One of the many reasons I love beer so much, keeps me from staying up all night worrying about stuff!

BobbiLynn said:

Maybe I was exaggerating but I've never baked bread or even baked a cake. I did try to make a pie once and added sugar and cinnamon to the crust and it DID kind of flake apart. One of the many reasons I love beer so much, keeps me from staying up all night worrying about stuff!

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I don't make deserts, that's the realm of my sister, mother, and nephew. I make the main part of dinner (most of the time) when over there and cooking. On holidays I'm also in charge of a couple of other things, like the gravy and/or mushrooms and onions (with pan drippings).

I have a sweet Kitchenaid mixer that I use for making bread/dough. Makes it far easier, and allows me to concentrate on what's important. Of course, you still need to knead it once mixed.

From reading more I have figured out that

1) 4 or 4.5 gallons in a 6.5 carboy for the primary(which is all I do) would be fine because there will be enough gases to fill the space

2) Secondaries aren't used so much any more. I probably won't even try it then. Most recipes I use say to just add another week in the primary if you aren't doing a secondary

3) Less water(like only filling to 4 gallons with a 5 gallon recipe kit) just means a stronger tasting beer, would be fine. Not sure if that also means higher alcohol content, but if it does, bonus!

That's 3 less things for me to worry about!

BobbiLynn said:

I treated it like I was baking a cake or bread! I am learning now what things are just flavors, what contributes to fermentation and I think the yeast you use depends on the fermentables you use?

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Yeast is more about the style of beer you are making.
Different yeast has different characteristics. Different flavors, different things they like.

Overall it sounds like you are getting the idea.
Mix it up some and try some things that sound good.

Did you say six ingredient kits coming!

I picked up grain, hops and yeast for two batches yesterday and figured I've got a busy weekend ahead of me.

Yes, 6! Scheduled for delivery Wednesday, right before the long holiday weekend. I'll be pushing it to have a bunch bottled and ready to drink by Christmas and New Years!

BobbiLynn said:

Yes, 6! Scheduled for delivery Wednesday, right before the long holiday weekend. I'll be pushing it to have a bunch bottled and ready to drink by Christmas and New Years!

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You will have lots of friends with a brew schedule like that.

I figure on having five types around Christmas and new years.
The difference is I'm not brewing them all in one long weekend!