Problems getting bitterness

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BetterSense

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My beers have consistently turned out what I consider either barely bitter enough or slightly too sweet. I've tried to brew 2 IPAs now and neither one turned out bitter. It's possible that I have some problem with my taste buds, but I don't think so. DFH 60 and 90 minute IPA tastes a nice level of bitter to me, but I tried to brew a DFH clone, even adding an extra 10% of hops or so to be safe, and it turned out barely bitter enough to be called an IPA.

I thought it might be LHBS hops, so I bought some bulk hops from Farmhouse brewing. Same thing.

I thought it might be my water, so I tried using 100% glacier RO water. Same thing.

The LHBS guy told me maybe I'm not boiling hard enough, so I got a keggle and now I'm burning off 1.5-2 gallons per hour. Same thing.

About the only thing I can figure is that the Lowes paint strainer bags I use are causing it. But I see people on here who use hop bags and spiders.

Any suggestions? I'm seriously going to start doubling the hops from every recipe, but that gets expensive.

This is the latest recipe I brewed. Do you think this should turn out detectably bitter?

OG 1.072
FG 1.018

60min: 1oz Northern Brewer 10.5%
15min: 4oz Cascade 6%
5min: 1oz Chinook 11%

This was my previous attempt, which was also not bitter:

OG 1.060?
FG 1.011

60min: 1 oz Centennial 10.5%
30min: 1/2 oz Centennial 10.5%
10min: 1/2 oz Centennial 10.5%
5min: 1oz Centennial 10.5%
 
I know people say that the bags and spiders don't make you lose utilization but I had that problem using bags. Now I dump them in and it had made a huge difference. I would try without the paint strainer next time if possible to see if that's the issue.
 
I would try brewing a small batch without the bags, if that fails try the ro water with some gypsum
 
add a lil more hops to the bill and calculate the outcome. Also take good notes.
 
The bags have nothing to do with it.

What is your boil size / batch size? Are you topping off with additional water?

Typical grain bill?

Yeast used?

Any water treatments?
 
Since your FG's are getting low, my only guess is that water might help. Visit the water chemistry primer and try those additions to RO? It still doesn't seem like it should make that much difference.

You can boil without the bag and then strain through it (sanitize it first) when you rack/pour the wort into the fermenter (easy with a bucket).
 
bobbrews said:
The bags have nothing to do with it.

What is your boil size / batch size? Are you topping off with additional water?

Typical grain bill?

Yeast used?

Any water treatments?
Click to expand...

I wouldn't say the bags have nothing to do with it because others and myself have tested it and seen a difference with no other changes. I do agree that it could definitely have another cause but I offered a suggestion based on the information that was provided.

If the OP would provide other information we may be able to diagnose but trying without the bag is pretty simple. One change at a time is what I suggest. Also depending on what kind of bitterness the OP is looking for upping the hops wouldn't be a bad idea, they seem slightly on the low side for that stronger bitterness that I would imagine.
 
question? And I am fairly new... but it looks like only 1oz. is actually being used to bitter. The rest is for flavor and nose. Why not put something in at 45min or 30 minutes? If you want more bitterness maybe add more earlier.

Cheers.
 
Get rid of the bags. I used them, but I would never return to those days. The hops need a roiling boil so that they will move around in the kettle. If you use a bag they won't move with the currents nearly as much. At least I experienced a huge difference in what I got out of my hops when I dropped the bags. Filtering the hops is easy to do, so I can't see what is the benefit of the bags anyway.
 
BetterSense said:
OG 1.072
FG 1.018

60min: 1oz Northern Brewer 10.5%
15min: 4oz Cascade 6%
5min: 1oz Chinook 11%

This was my previous attempt, which was also not bitter:

OG 1.060?
FG 1.011

60min: 1 oz Centennial 10.5%
30min: 1/2 oz Centennial 10.5%
10min: 1/2 oz Centennial 10.5%
5min: 1oz Centennial 10.5%
Click to expand...

That doesn't look like enough hops in the second batch to get to the bitterness level of an IPA. Try adding another oz at 60 mins and move the 30 min addition to flameout. Also, try to use hop cones and see what happens. I have found that most of the beers I brewed with hop flowers/cones have turned out much better than ones with pellets. I lived in Oregon for 2 1/2 years, so it was easy to get them.

What are the IBUs for those 2 batches?
 
Nyrkki said:
Get rid of the bags. I used them, but I would never return to those days. The hops need a roiling boil so that they will move around in the kettle. If you use a bag they won't move with the currents nearly as much. At least I experienced a huge difference in what I got out of my hops when I dropped the bags. Filtering the hops is easy to do, so I can't see what is the benefit of the bags anyway.
Click to expand...

How do you filter? How do you chill?

I pump through a plate chiller.
 
What are the IBUs for those 2 batches?
Click to expand...
I Hopville to calculate the IBU to match what is called for in the recipe. But when I do that, it comes out sweeter than the recipe is supposed to. Maybe Hopville puts too much weight on later hops additions?
 
Brewing has so many dimensions to explore, and it sounds like you haven't ventured down the water minerals path. Playing with sulfate and chloride using gypsum and CaCl will brighten your beer and accentuate bitterness. Try to follow a recommended pale ale profile, not designing your own.

Bitterness loss from a hop spider is minimal at worst if the straining bag is large.
 
Yooper said:
What's the potassium metabisulfite used for in the water, if you're using RO water?
Click to expand...

I only add the potassium metabisulfite when I use tap water, either 100% or as as % of the water. Sometimes I have used 5 gallons of RO and 2-3 gallons of tap water (the Glacier spring water dispenses 5 gallons at a time)
 
No reason not to try it without the bags.

Are the hops you are using for bittering from the same batch? Perhaps they are old and improperly stored.


Also, they could be onto something with your water profile
 
I'd start with your water....RO, distilled, or other very soft water can reduce Hop bitterness.
 
Blaming hopping in bag for a lack of bitterness is like blaming your 5'7'' height for lack of a sex life. It's a silly reason and should have no measurable impact in the end.

It could be the amount of water he's topping off with. Not using enough hops. Inappropriate water treatments or lackthereof.

Sweetness in general could be due to a grain bill heavy in crystal malts, and/or stressed yeast that is having issues attenuating.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyrkki
Get rid of the bags. I used them, but I would never return to those days. The hops need a roiling boil so that they will move around in the kettle. If you use a bag they won't move with the currents nearly as much. At least I experienced a huge difference in what I got out of my hops when I dropped the bags. Filtering the hops is easy to do, so I can't see what is the benefit of the bags anyway.
How do you filter? How do you chill?

I pump through a plate chiller.
Click to expand...

I use a wort chiller and allow the hop cones to sit in the wort while I chill it. After that I pour the wort into the bucket through a hop bag that catches the hops used in the boil and some proteins. After that I whirlpool the wort in the bucket and siphon to a carboy.

Blaming hopping in bag for a lack of bitterness is like blaming your 5'7'' height for lack of a sex life. It's a silly reason and should have no measurable impact in the end.
Click to expand...

Well my experience contradicts, but if you want to reason a priori, then fine by me. I doesn't hurt to try anyway.
 
I've been having the same problem as you on all my hop forward beers. It's been killing me trying to figure it out. I've tried all the same things as you and haven't been able to figure out how to get deep lingering bitterness in my hoppy beers. I've been getting very hoppy and citrusy beers with tons of hop flavor and aroma but more of a tart flavor than bitterness. I've had my water tested and done all the additions and while it has helped the bulk of my beers I still haven't been able to get the deep bitterness I crave in my Pales and IPAs. 2 weeks ago my brew buddy and I tried to clone a local beer that we have the recipe for. This was the 4th time we've tried with limited success due to the bitterness problem. He lives about 5 miles away from the brewery and since they reportedly don't treat their water we decided to try brewing with tap water from his house. We didn't do any additions for this beer expect for a campden tablet and the bitterness came out really deep and bitter like we wanted.

I've been reading like crazy and racking my brain all week and I think I've figured it out. I think the issue is a combination of not using enough bittering (60 min) hops and mash pH. I've been reading on the water forums how I need to get my mash down to 5.3 so I've been shooting for that with acid and salt additions. The water we used for this batch is low in minerals but around 100 alkalinity. The measured pH for this mash came in at 5.7. Seemed high to me, but apparently that was the ticket to get the bitterness where it was supposed to be.

Also for what it's worth, the chloride and sulphate in the water we used and that the brewery uses are both around 20 ppm and this beer is by far the most bitter I've ever made and tasted. It's also rated at 130 IBU in beersmith and is only a 6.4% beer. It's a really high IBU beer but I was not able to make a bitter version of it until I used the higher alkaline water and higher mash pH.
 
I think that moving the chinooks to the 60 min addition and upping the amount to 1.5 to 2 oz will add to the bitterness. I use 2 oz of chinooks in my house recipe and all the rest of the hop bill in the last 5-10 minutes. Love the bitterness coming through.
 
This is my next experiment in getting beer to actually taste bitter

100% RO water with 1tsp of gypsum
8lb Light LME
1.5lb Corn Sugar
1/2lb steeped crystal 60L

1 oz Warrior 14% 60min
1 oz Northern Brewer 10% 60min
1 3/4 oz Northern Brewer 10% 30min
2 oz Cascade 6% 15min
2 oz Cascade 6% 0min

According to hopville, this should be 150IBU. We'll see.
 
I was told not to use RO water, but you'll have to let us know how it turns out.
BetterSense said:
This is my next experiment in getting beer to actually taste bitter

100% RO water with 1tsp of gypsum
8lb Light LME
1.5lb Corn Sugar
1/2lb steeped crystal 60L

1 oz Warrior 14% 60min
1 oz Northern Brewer 10% 60min
1 3/4 oz Northern Brewer 10% 30min
2 oz Cascade 6% 15min
2 oz Cascade 6% 0min

According to hopville, this should be 150IBU. We'll see.
Click to expand...
 
Holy crap, the hydrometer sample was throat-searingly bitter.

Is the hydrometer sample supposed to be sweet for an IPA, or is it OK if it's already pretty bitter? Is there any chance that it will become less bitter with fermentation? I figured it's not possible for a beer to be too bitter to drink; I think Stone IPA is just nice. But now I'm a bit worried.

I wonder if it was the gypsum, the RO water, the using extract instead of grain, or just using the two ounces of 60 minute hops plus nearly 2 ounces of 30 minute hops.
 
budbo said:
If you are using a bag you need to increase the hops by as much as 30% (depending on the type bag)
Click to expand...

Disagree (if using the 5 gallon nylon mesh paint strainer bags).

Never noticed any differences in the final beer (of otherwise the same recipe) whether the hops were tossed in loose, or bagged.
 
BetterSense said:
Holy crap, the hydrometer sample was throat-searingly bitter.

Is the hydrometer sample supposed to be sweet for an IPA, or is it OK if it's already pretty bitter? Is there any chance that it will become less bitter with fermentation? I figured it's not possible for a beer to be too bitter to drink; I think Stone IPA is just nice. But now I'm a bit worried.

I wonder if it was the gypsum, the RO water, the using extract instead of grain, or just using the two ounces of 60 minute hops plus nearly 2 ounces of 30 minute hops.
Click to expand...

It'll be fine. I don't think you can judge the way a beer will taste based on the hydrometer sample. I've had plenty of IPAs that tasted extremely bitter pre-fermentation and not nearly bitter enough after it was carbed and kegged. Ride it out.

On another note, I've also recently discovered that carbonation can interfere with bitterness perception, the more carbonic acid in solution the more tart the ipa will taste and it covers up the bitterness. I've started carbing my beers to lower volumes and it has improved the bitterness perception in my beers.
 
chumpsteak said:
I've been having the same problem as you on all my hop forward beers. It's been killing me trying to figure it out. I've tried all the same things as you and haven't been able to figure out how to get deep lingering bitterness in my hoppy beers. I've been getting very hoppy and citrusy beers with tons of hop flavor and aroma but more of a tart flavor than bitterness. I've had my water tested and done all the additions and while it has helped the bulk of my beers I still haven't been able to get the deep bitterness I crave in my Pales and IPAs. 2 weeks ago my brew buddy and I tried to clone a local beer that we have the recipe for. This was the 4th time we've tried with limited success due to the bitterness problem. He lives about 5 miles away from the brewery and since they reportedly don't treat their water we decided to try brewing with tap water from his house. We didn't do any additions for this beer expect for a campden tablet and the bitterness came out really deep and bitter like we wanted.

I've been reading like crazy and racking my brain all week and I think I've figured it out. I think the issue is a combination of not using enough bittering (60 min) hops and mash pH. I've been reading on the water forums how I need to get my mash down to 5.3 so I've been shooting for that with acid and salt additions. The water we used for this batch is low in minerals but around 100 alkalinity. The measured pH for this mash came in at 5.7. Seemed high to me, but apparently that was the ticket to get the bitterness where it was supposed to be.

Also for what it's worth, the chloride and sulphate in the water we used and that the brewery uses are both around 20 ppm and this beer is by far the most bitter I've ever made and tasted. It's also rated at 130 IBU in beersmith and is only a 6.4% beer. It's a really high IBU beer but I was not able to make a bitter version of it until I used the higher alkaline water and higher mash pH.
Click to expand...

Alpha acid isomerization increases with higher pH. Perhaps you could mash at 5.3 and make a very small pickling lime addition after sparging to reach your ideal pH?

Then you can improve starch conversion efficiency, but yield the bitterness you desire?
 
My efficiency was normal and the beer is now crystal clear after a couple weeks in the keg. I don't think the 5.7 mash pH affected starch conversion at all. FG was on target at 1.010. Seems that the only thing the higher mash pH did was improve hop utilization and bitterness. I just made another high ibu ipa last week and added some pickling lime to the mash to bring mash pH up to 5.7 again. Will see how it turns out in a couple weeks.
 
Well, I'm drinking my latest IPA attempt and it turned out pretty good, but it's by no means super bitter. I would say it barely has enough bitterness to be called a proper IPA, which is better than my previous attempts, but less than I was expecting. And with 1.5 lb of corn sugar and a 1.011 final gravity, I don't think it's malt sweetness covering up any bitterness.

It could be that there is something wrong with my tastebuds and I can't taste bitterness. However, I'm just trying to emulate what I taste in commercial IPAs.

100% RO water with 1tsp of gypsum
8lb Light LME
1.5lb Corn Sugar
1/2lb steeped crystal 60L

1 oz Warrior 14% 60min
1 oz Northern Brewer 10% 60min
1 3/4 oz Northern Brewer 10% 30min
2 oz Cascade 6% 15min
2 oz Cascade 6% 0min
Click to expand...
 
BetterSense said:
Well, I'm drinking my latest IPA attempt and it turned out pretty good, but it's by no means super bitter. I would say it barely has enough bitterness to be called a proper IPA, which is better than my previous attempts, but less than I was expecting. And with 1.5 lb of corn sugar and a 1.011 final gravity, I don't think it's malt sweetness covering up any bitterness.

It could be that there is something wrong with my tastebuds and I can't taste bitterness. However, I'm just trying to emulate what I taste in commercial IPAs.
Click to expand...

A teaspoon of gypsum really isn't all that much. If you use a spreadsheet (like brunwater), you can see the actual amount of sulfate, but in a 5 gallon batch with RO water, a teaspoon may not give you the amount of sulfate you desire. I like less in my beers, but you may go up to 350 ppm with sulfate if your taste buds like it.
 

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