Issues With First Lager - Munich Helles/WLP830

I have had number of different problems with the first lager, none of which I have ever experienced with ales. I understand the brewing process, yeast starters, and wort aeration; sanitation hasn't been an issue; fermentation temps under control.

It is a Munich Helles with WLP830. I was using an older pack of the yeast. Maybe a couple months past prime at most. But this never caused problems in the past with the help of a starter. (I just made a starter for Ringwood and Kolsch from the same time frame with no issue.) I stepped it up three times at room temp (1.020 for the first time and 2L of 1.040 for the second and third) and then crashed/decanted. There was visible yeast growth in the starter after each step, but was very slow to ferment out. I pitched at 51f, and after the first week I noticed little to no activity in carboy. So even at the 7-day mark, the samples pulled for gravity readings showed barely any fermentation, and the wort still tasted as fresh as the day I brewed it, with no off flavors, or signs of fermentation. I gave it a couple more days, while waiting on a new second vial of 830, with no change. I just assumed the older yeast had quit after fermenting the starters. Made another starter/crashed/decanted and then pulled the wort off the original yeast cake and then pitched the new. Within 8 hours there was quite a bit of visible activity. Over the course of the next 2 weeks, it dropped to 1.024 (originally from 1.051). I raised it for a d-rest to 59f per Jamil's suggest. 3 days later. Nothing. 1.024. Roused the yeast. Dropped to 1.023 over a couple more days. Raised to 68f, which I saw on a couple posts here on HBT suggesting that temp for a d-rest. 2 days later, 1.022. As of this morning, it's hovering around 1.021. It would be nice to start lagering soon, but it has stalled and still needs to drop another another .010. Should I leave it or go ahead and lager. I'm in no rush with it, been 5 weeks thus far. Just would be nice to have the ferm chamber back for a couple ales.

But here is another set of problems. It smells like pot roast; not a raw beef smell, but pot roast--more aromatic. It has that umami character to it. It also has that same taste. I haven't found much in terms of this problem, but what I have found leans towards yeast autolysis. I wouldn't think this is the problem since the first pack of yeast seemed to revive in the starter but then flaked in the wort. I haven't started lagering yet, so this could very well dissipate over time. But I certainly would not classify it as sulfurous at all. I’ve left the gravity samples in the fridge overnight and the aroma seems to dissipate somewhat, but the flavor still seems to remain.

So if anyone has any suggestions or input for the stalled yeast issue, or better yet this aroma/taste issue, please let me know. Wasn't sure if the two problems could be related. I guess the worst thing I have is 5 gallons of pot roast flavored beer to start braising a whole lot of beef this summer.

Here's the recipe:
8.25# Pilsner
6oz Wheat
5oz Munich
3oz Aromatic
1.25oz Tettang (60 min)
WLP830

90 min mash
90 min boil

Thats weird. Ive only used 830 once, but i did notice some off flavors. The good news is that they went away over time for me. Hopefully it will for you too.

Best i can tell is that maybe the flavors are a result of unhealthy yeast or under pitching? Under pitching seems unlikely, since you used what sounds like a healthy amount of starter.

Did you offer a sacrifice to the brewing gods during the mash? if not, that's probably the problem. Next time, offer them a beer.

man im making a helles on monday. im using a 34/70 saflager yeast and everyone says that is a good yeast. What were the temps on the yeast. what did you pitch the yeast at??? everyone tells me it is actually better to pitch the yeast cold like 50 degrees. i would look at the yeast, i made an o'fest and i pitched at 50 and kept it there and it is still fermanting at 50 degrees!!! Dont know sounds like you might have killed the yeast!! I would try the safelager 34/70 or a slap pack. I could be totally wrong too!!! im a very new brewer!!! lol!!!

@SouthBay: You know...I didn't offer to the beer gods after I pitched the yeast for the 2nd time! That must be it! Ironically, enough I do everytime.......except for the 2nd pitching of yeast. *Tops, bottoms, knees, to the Gods*

@brockettbrews: I cooled the wort around 55f and pitched the yeast, which was around 55-60f. It wasn't a slap pack, but rather a vial of yeast. Then again if I have a SlapPack, I slap the pack and an hour later pitch the yeast/nutrient into the starter wort...never had a problem...

I certainly won't argue with the fact of dead yeast; but the first vial worked through the starters and the second vial worked through the starter and the wort to a certain point.

sounds like you did everything right. Dont know then???

How much yeast slurry did you actually pitch and did you areate well? It sounds like not enough healthy yeast.

Also what temp did you mash at?

A full accounting of your procedure would enable us to help you better.

It sounds like your starter was big enough and the yeast were still active. Did you oxygenate your wort with O2? I also pitch my starter into the wort at or around 52-55 and then set my temp for the lager chamber at 49. The key ingredient that IMO gets fermentation moving is O2. I would say that you can start to bring down your temp 1 deg per day down to your target temp by now.

boo boo said:

How much yeast slurry did you actually pitch and did you areate well? It sounds like not enough healthy yeast.

Also what temp did you mash at?

A full accounting of your procedure would enable us to help you better.

Click to expand...

I used Yeastcalc.com for this batch. Normally, I use Mr. Malty. And I've been using a Venturi tube for aeration as the chilled wort exits the CFC flowing into the carboy. Fermentation took off within 8 hours after the second pitch of yeast.

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 7.31 gal
Post Boil Volume: 6.50 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.50 gal
Bottling Volume: 5.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.047 SG
Estimated Color: 3.0 SRM
Estimated IBU: 18.6 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 78.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 88.6 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
8 lbs 4.0 oz Pilsner (2 Row) UK (1.0 SRM) Grain 1 90.2 %
6.4 oz White Wheat Malt (2.4 SRM) Grain 2 4.4 %
1.25 oz Tettnang [4.50 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 5 18.6 IBUs
1.0 pkg German Lager (White Labs #WLP830) [35.49 Yeast 6 -
5.0 oz Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 3 3.4 %
3.0 oz Aromatic Malt (26.0 SRM) Grain 4 2.1 %


Mash Schedule: Double Infusion, Medium Body
Total Grain Weight: 9 lbs 2.4 oz
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperatur Step Time
Protein Rest Add 2.31 gal of water at 145.7 F 131.0 F 5 min
Saccharification Add 1.81 gal of water at 180.7 F 150.0 F 60 min
Mash Out Add 2.29 gal of water at 209.1 F 169.0 F 10 min

Sparge: Fly sparge with 2.25 gal water at 168.0 F

I used RO water and added 1/2t CaCl2, for soft water according to the Brewing Water Chemistry Primer thread.

I read a few reviews of the 830 yeast, and some of them pointed to off flavors prior to lagering. Most indicated that after 6 weeks lagering, the flavors stabilized, and the off flavors were gone. So, theres hope!

Ive got a lager going right now using 34/70, which according to mr. malty, is the same yeast as wlp830. I didnt experience anything like what you're talking about, and it was practically drinkable prior to lagering.... so who knows.

do you like 34/70 that is what im going to use im lager.

I really do like it, especially because you get so much more yeast per pack, at a lower price, because it's dry. I only did a single 2L starter of about 1040, and it was more than enough for the beer (1.060). Ive made sure to wash plenty to keep it around for future brews.

Between Nottingham, Safale 04, and the 34/70, my conversion to dry yeast is complete.

I love the W34/70 also and buy it by the brick.

Seems to be time to slowly drop the temp and lager this beast. Hopefully some age and more patience will make a difference. But seriously...a pot roast aroma?! Who knows...

Fijidave12 said:

Seems to be time to slowly drop the temp and lager this beast. Hopefully some age and more patience will make a difference. But seriously...a pot roast aroma?! Who knows...

Click to expand...

That aroma should lager out, that sucks the yeast didn't work for you. I used 838 on my last Helles and it finished at .012.
I used 830 on my maibock, it went from .068 to .014 with no problems.

Since I went to pure oxygen for aeration, i've noticed shorter lag times and lower fg's, I wish I would have started using in it 3 years ago.

I also make it a habit to not smell my lagers, malty beers don't really have a pleasant aroma(to me anyways) like a dryhopped IPA's do.

Thanks buddy. I certainly haven't given up on the yeast. I'll give it another helluva go. And maybe an O2 tank may be a purchase in the near future. I'll certainly let you know how it turns out.

Like Flananuts said, it sounds like it might be an oxygen problem. I have tried a couple different methods of aeration and nothing beats pure O2. I hated the cost of the regulator and diffusion stone, but not I can aerate w pure O2 for 45 sec to 1 minute and my yeast goes nuts quickly. I would say that the O2 regulator was the 2nd best purchase I have ever made for homebrewing behind my ferm chamber (chest freezer) and temp controller.

I attempted my first 3 lagers with WLP830. The first was a German pilsner followed by a Vienna lager and smoker lager. The pilsner and Vienna had an off flavor at the end. I believe the smoked lager would have the same flavor, but the 4lbs of smoked malt masks it. The off flavor is hard to describe, but I'm almost certain it's not Diaceytl. It more closely resembles a slight sulfur note. Some who have used 830 describe a slight sulfur taste from it, while others say it finishes clean.

I took the beers to a local home brew meeting and had the experienced brewers with refined palates tell me what was off. They immediately recognized the flavors as a result of high a fermentation temperature. I fermented around 56 and 55 which is apparently too high for 830. They told me they pitch and ferment their lagers at 48 without the need for a diaceytl rest. I wasn't able to this this since I didn't have a temperature controller. I'm definitely going to invest in one before my next lager. They also recommended lagering for 6 weeks. I only fermented for 2 and lagered for another 2. I'm not sure why you had problems with fermentation, but I'd thought I share my experience with off flavors from 830.

I just picked up a tube of WLP860 (Munich Helles yeast) and I am planning on brewing a helles and then a german pils with it. The plan will be to pitch low and keep it low and then maybe ramp up a little at the end to help it clean up after itself an then lager for 4-6 weeks. I'll let you know what happens.

So, how did this turn out?