Closed-system pressurized fermentation technique!

If I move up from 15 gallon batches I am going pressurizable conical. I would love to have a 40 gallon.

I see. Cool.

WortMonger said:

If I move up from 15 gallon batches I am going pressurizable conical. I would love to have a 40 gallon.

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Those Brewhemoths are each 22 gallons. You could get 2 to your door for $900.

I bet a 55 gallon SS drum would work for around $100. Not a conical, but for the money....

WortMonger said:

The sweet thing about using a Sanke tap connector is the built in tap pressure relief. I really like that the Brewhemoth was tested to such high pressures. Gives me hope for a conical in my future maybe.

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WM: You have a great thing going here in a novel brewing syle. Conicals are are only good for 3 psi.

Curious as to if you mean only good because of their rating, or if it has something to do with the way they are shaped and the yeast?

WortMonger said:

Curious as to if you mean only good because of their rating, or if it has something to do with the way they are shaped and the yeast?

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I have two blickman 15 gal conicals. The safety ratings are 3 psi max.

Pretty difficult to make something pressurizable with a 16 inch o-ring.

I don't see the 'hopper with a top and legs' design as ever being able to pressurize, IMO.
+1 on brewhemoth being cool.

Show me where I can get 55G stainless barrels for a hundred bucks. Please.

StMarcos said:

Show me where I can get 55G stainless barrels for a hundred bucks. Please.

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http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=m570&_nkw=Stainless+Steel+Barrel

Ok, so the third Sunday and I am holding at 30 psi at 69*F. The beer smells wonderful and very malty. I'm holding it for one more week rolling it daily at least and then will filter once it is crashed and chilled. Looks like another fine beer is on its way to my stomach.

My neighbor and I put a dent in my swmbo slayer pale ale last night. Brewed it on superbowl Sunday and it's delish. I love pressure ferm. I just put my order in for my maibock

Yep, I do too. I hope it just gets easier with the no-chill method in conjunction with the fermentation technique.

Hi folks-

I have been unable to find any literature or whatnot to help me figure out what the proper technique for depressurizing a vessel that has pressurized yeast in it after a pressure ferment with the point being to not decrease viability. Be it to 15 PSI or all the way up to 30+ PSI at ale temps.

I guess I'm sort of looking for the least amount of time I have to bleed off with my spunding valve in order to get back to regular atmospheres without being too fast to destroy cell walls and kill yeast. Guess I'm looking for something like .. -1 PSI every 20 mins, etc...

Anyone have any literature they can point me to. Nothing on the Wyeast or White Labs site that I can find that refers to it.

SankePankey said:

Hi folks-

I have been unable to find any literature or whatnot to help me figure out what the proper technique for depressurizing a vessel that has pressurized yeast in it after a pressure ferment with the point being to not decrease viability. Be it to 15 PSI or all the way up to 30+ PSI at ale temps.

I guess I'm sort of looking for the least amount of time I have to bleed off with my spunding valve in order to get back to regular atmospheres without being too fast to destroy cell walls and kill yeast. Guess I'm looking for something like .. -1 PSI every 20 mins, etc...

Anyone have any literature they can point me to. Nothing on the Wyeast or White Labs site that I can find that refers to it.

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This would be helpful to me as well, for a completely different reason.

I'm p-fermenting a sorachi ace stout that I plan on racking to a keg with some cherry puree in it. I don't really like the idea of transferring to another keg, and then another (serving) keg after a week or so. That seems like it would take the "easy" out of this whole process.

If I could depressurize slowly, then I could just drop the puree bag in the current keg with some fishing line. Then when the flavor is right, transfer it all out to the serving keg.

BUT, to not hijack your post, I *think* -1psi every few min would be fine. I do know a quick depressurization would also lose all the co2 out of the beer. But I don't see why just popping 1-2psi out every few min (after letting it stabilize) would be a problem.

is there a detailed part list and where to buy the parts somewhere in this thread (for a sanky, not corny)?

First, get it cold. Then drop the pressure a couple of points a time, 5psi is not a lot if you are doing this every half hour or so. Remember, temperature is your friend. get it as close to 32 as you can and even if you open the keg you won't lose that much carbonation. I would actually over-carbonate if you were going to do this to equate for the process.

Now, if you are dumping pressure to open for washing/etc... get it down in temp and then just open and wash. The second you add wash water to your mix it will diffuse most of the CO2 pressure out of the beer and into the water equalizing it. You will lose viability, this is inevitable, due to depressurizing. However, I have never had a stalled out batch due to not enough yeast from a previous fermentation. Treat it with a bit of dignity and that goes a long ways. The best thing would be to let it depressurize over a week slowly, but IMHO... if you have a whole cake to choose from, wash it and go with the proper pitching rate for your next beer and don't worry.

I've got two 5 gallon pressurized batches going in cornys right now.. one regular, one sanke.. I had to switch to a blowoff because the fermentation was out of control..I'll crank up the pressure tomorrow !

So I'm wondering, when I move this to a serving keg - if I cool to 32 and then move with CO2, does all of the trub not go with it ??

joeybeer said:

I've got two 5 gallon pressurized batches going in cornys right now.. one regular, one sanke.. I had to switch to a blowoff because the fermentation was out of control..I'll crank up the pressure tomorrow !

So I'm wondering, when I move this to a serving keg - if I cool to 32 and then move with CO2, does all of the trub not go with it ??

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I have dip tubes/sanke spears that I have cut about 1/2" off of to prevent this.
Yes you will get your yeast cake through the "out", so prepare for that, catch it until it runs clear, then transfer.

Hey, guys. I'm still figuring out some space issues and what not. For now I do not have the ability to crash cool.

My question is, can I still ferment under pressure and counter pressure transfer? So far I've just been keeping my fermenting pressures at around 5-7 psi, then waiting 3 weeks to be sure yeast has flocculated out before transferring to serving kegs. This has worked well for me. Beer is clear and tasty.

I'm wondering if I could let pressure climb to around 30 psi and transfer without crash cooling after 3 weeks, giving the yeast time to flocculate out. I mean, is the crash cooling more about lowering the pressure through increased absorption into the beer or for flocculation? Right now I see the yeast has flocculated out after 3 weeks. So if the pressure isn't an issue if I counter pressure transfer, maybe this would work, no?

Thanks for the advice, guys.

I slilghtly bent some of my dip tubes for the purpose of leaving some trub behind. It doesn't require much, and even if you don't you'll still leave most of the trub/yeast behind, so it'll settle out pretty quick in the new keg.

Crash cooling really makes the yeast go dormant, and in general just settles things out. Go ahead and crash cool then transfer, I do that.

Ferment, at the end let it run up to ~25-30 psi. Toss it in the kegerator to cool it, the psi will drop to 10-12, a week later transfer *into another cold keg*. A warm keg will cause lots of foam

IF I don't have space in the kegerator (which is becoming more common these days), I'll do it all at room temp/30psi. That works just fine too, but the cold does help clear things up a bit.

I think I'll try transferring at 30 psi to a COLD serving Keg this time. As I said, my beer clears nicely. I can't imagine filtering as mine clears so well on its own. I don't even use gelatin.



Yeah, I kind of took this shot so I could drink some beer at 10:00am. Not bad clarity for an IPA.

Hey Wortmonger,

Quick question, why do you reinstall the beer check ball to the coupler once you're done pumping in your wort? I have left mine out since I started this, 4-5 batches, thinking that the cobra tap I have attached will keep pressure and beer in the keg without worries.

Is it just preference or am I missing something? I was going to put the check ball back in, but my snap rings sometimes pop out when removing the coupler. I don't want to do that at 20psi and kill of my yeast.

Well, about five minutes after I expressed my concern about popping off the snap ring on my fermenting keg by removing the coupler, I was just standing near it looking at my flow meter and it blew! I did well just to get the coupler off and the ring back on what with all the krausen blowing out of there.

All the pressure vented. So I'm wondering if I just killed off all my yeast.

Honestly, that sounds really dangerous. You need to get new snap rings, or fix the problem that is causing that to happen. You're working with a loaded gun.

Dgonza9 said:

Hey Wortmonger,

Quick question, why do you reinstall the beer check ball to the coupler once you're done pumping in your wort?

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Because I am one of the cool kids! Nah j/k, it is so it works like it should when you only want beer to go one way. If, by chance, I had some contamination in the testing spigot line and pressure built it would go back into the keg. If I lost pressure for some reason (leak or something) and hit the tap, beer would go back in. I just figured it is best to leave it like a serving keg would be for a number of different reasons.

Sorry to hear about your snap rings. Are you using the ones that came on the kegs or a different one like Yuri pointed out?

klyph said:

Honestly, that sounds really dangerous. You need to get new snap rings, or fix the problem that is causing that to happen. You're working with a loaded gun.

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Agreed. This is the first time that has happened. Luckily, the snap ring doesn't fit over the coupler. So it's not like it shot out of there or anything. It just popped off and caught on the coupler.

But I'll hold off on higher pressures until I figure this out. I set the spund valve for 7 psi. It's already there and letting gas escape to maintain.

I'm guessing the yeast survived.

I thought I'd post and let WM know that I am doing my first pressurized lager right now. I have a Classic American Pils sitting in the garage( ~55-60*) at 7psi.

I've begun doing a Fast Ferment Test with these lagers as well. (You take a few hundred ml of the actual wort, a couple ml of the actual yeast and treat it like a starter). The advantage here is that you know the ending gravity in about 36 hours.

This way, I can move it into cold lagering asap.

Well, that is just awesome.

I brewed last night and am trying my first no-chill P-ferment. The keg is out in a fairly cold garage and was warm when I got home from work. I figure I will be down to pitching temperatures by tomorrow night, and will oxygenate through the beer port with my O2 bottle to give me a pressurized atmosphere to be safer in opening for yeast pitch. I am also going to try the hop tea method for this batch for all my late addition hops, since it is an APA I only did bittering in the kettle. I am excited if this works out, and am thinking lagers would play well into this method. I cannot wait to see first, if it is clear, and second, if it is very hop nosey. After listening to the BBR podcast with a pellet hop pro, I am hoping this will be my new method to dry hop. Guess we will see, huh?

I haven't yet tried a p-fermented beer (I just made a spunding valve, can't wait!). However, My last 2 beers were fermented in Corny kegs with a blow off tube.

I was thinking of trying to serve from the original keg, but I am skeptical it would work. Have you ever served from the same keg the beer was fermented in? I've read the whole thread, but that was a while ago, and my memory is fuzzy.

Also, if I were to transfer it to a serving keg (I'll need to get another one if I do..) how would you recommend I transfer as little yeast/trub as possible (beyond cooling it to 31-35&#730?

storunner13 said:

I haven't yet tried a p-fermented beer (I just made a spunding valve, can't wait!). However, My last 2 beers were fermented in Corny kegs with a blow off tube.

I was thinking of trying to serve from the original keg, but I am skeptical it would work. Have you ever served from the same keg the beer was fermented in? I've read the whole thread, but that was a while ago, and my memory is fuzzy.

Also, if I were to transfer it to a serving keg (I'll need to get another one if I do..) how would you recommend I transfer as little yeast/trub as possible (beyond cooling it to 31-35&#730?

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The corny keg ferment thread probably has more info.

The first time I p-fermented, I left a lot of trub in when I transferred to the corny (no chill).

That definitely needed to be racked off.

The second, I let a lot more trubu behind, and while it did serve clear after a bit, it took a while, and sometimes I would still get something. But, once again, I probably still took quite a bit of trub.

Both times, just straight counter-pressure transferring across worked out well. It left enough behind that the second keg ran clear with no problems.

Now, I've ever so slightly bent my dip tube so that I pick up on the wall near the rounded bottom, and I expect that it will leave even more behind.

But I still think that if you went into the corny with very clean wort, that after ferment you could serve out of there.

You could also hook up a party tap, run it for half a pint or so to get the big stuff off, and then transfer.

storunner13 said:

Have you ever served from the same keg the beer was fermented in?

Also, if I were to transfer it to a serving keg (I'll need to get another one if I do..) how would you recommend I transfer as little yeast/trub as possible (beyond cooling it to 31-35&#730?

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Yep, I have used the primary as a serving vessel, but I had a filter right before the tap. I would get another keg and counter pressure transfer slowly to get racked off the very most of the trub/yeast.

Chilling and transferring is all I would recommend, other than buying a filter. Gravity and time is your friend.

So I complained at first about pressurized fermentation, but now that I'm drinking a 10 day old APA, I'm in love.... I wonder how you handle dry hopping though, I have an IPA recipe thats a hit, but it required 7 day dry hop in the secondary.

Right now I'm using a 20oz paintball tank to carb, so I'm fairly careful with it, and after fermentation was finished at 30 psi, I chilled to 32, depressurized, autosiphoned to a serving keg, and tossed in a double hop bagged 2oz of pellets... 4 days later and it tastes like hop skittles, is cloudy and has a ton of hop particles floating around ... Should i let it settle and rerack ??

I know a filter would solve this Just to poor after my new brew stand and TIG welded keggle

Well, I have been talking to my friends on the chat. We have been discussing a "torpedo" which is a device that acts like a "Randall" only recirculates back into the bright tank (or keg in this case). Basically we are thinking a pump, hop packed filter, and then a constant recirculation until you are ready to transfer. Everything stays closed-system (if you purge it with CO2) and you can always crash and wait, or filter for the transfer. No depressurizing needed.

As for your current situation, I would chill and re-rack if you are worried about the particulates. Honestly, my filter is the best $50 I have spent in a long time on my brewery. Crystal beer on demand. I even stick it on pre-tap sometimes when i don't want to worry about transferring a keg. I am soooo glad your APA turned out great. Hope you come up with a workable idea for your current beer. I am actually going to hop tea my latest APA for all my aroma additions. It was a no-chill that I am still waiting on my washed yeast to clean up to pitch. That is a whole other thing though.

joeybeer said:

So I complained at first about pressurized fermentation, but now that I'm drinking a 10 day old APA, I'm in love.... I wonder how you handle dry hopping though, I have an IPA recipe thats a hit, but it required 7 day dry hop in the secondary.

Right now I'm using a 20oz paintball tank to carb, so I'm fairly careful with it, and after fermentation was finished at 30 psi, I chilled to 32, depressurized, autosiphoned to a serving keg, and tossed in a double hop bagged 2oz of pellets... 4 days later and it tastes like hop skittles, is cloudy and has a ton of hop particles floating around ... Should i let it settle and rerack ??

I know a filter would solve this Just to poor after my new brew stand and TIG welded keggle

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Purely his expand a ton when wet. I bet the bag is strained and the pressure is pushing particles through it.

I forgot to mention that I no-chill too ! I'm on about batch 15 and I've NEVER chilled (it works for the Aussies, right ??). FWIW I've never brewed extact either, went all grain right out of the gate... I use a cooler mash tun and stainless braid, and get tons of complements on my beers (even from a commercial brewer!)

It's half art and half craft... Don't forget to push the boundaries !!! It's damn sure not a science

Sorry if it has been asked and answered, but this thread is a beast.

I recently built my spunding valve and transfered from my secondary to the primary. I used CO2 to set the seal and it held then dropped (I assume that CO2 was absorbed into the beer). My question is, how long should it take for the pressure to rise to the desired PSI and the spunding valve start bleeding?

muse435, you transferred from secondary to primary? I assume it is the other way around. I am unable to answer without more definitive information, but if the beer was done or almost done fermenting and you are losing pressure then you have a leak. If it is newly fermenting wort... it can take a few days sometimes to show any pressure due to the wort absorbing the CO2. It just depends. Let me know more information and I can help you better.

Ok, so I brewed it on Sunday 3/6/11 and it took two days to get to garage temperature ~60*F. Started washing my yeast from the older primary after depressurizing it slowly over a couple of days ~5psi drop once and sometimes twice a day as I neared 0 psi.

I waited an extra day to try and get more yeast and less sediment. This was due to the fact that I pitched 3 - 11g packets of US-05 on the first beer and then directly on that cake for this last beer before washing. Both beers I had forgotten my Super Moss, and so had more junk enter the fermentor than I would have liked. The yeast was a darker color than I would have liked for a prime pitching condition, but I attribute this to the gunk from the first two beers.

Yesterday, Friday 3/11/11, I attached a 2 liter soda bottle that I cut the bottom off as a funnel to the beer port on my Sanke tap connector (it actually can be threaded on and doesn't leak around the threads on the connector). the tap connector had my spunding valve on the gas-side. I filled it with my pitch after sanitizing everything with Star-San, and I tapped the connector.

Question #1 was answered when the yeast was sucked in and very little atmospheric air was allowed in after the pitch (I heard two glugs inside the keg so I am thinking that is two large bubbles). This air entered as I was un-tapping the connector. The amount of vacuum created was very minimal, and I am glad to have that part answered finally.

I took everything off and rinsed and sanitized the equipment and the keg top. After sanitizing, I rigged my O2 bottle to the beer port on the tap connector and re-tapped. Nothing happened, until I slowly turned on the O2 bottle and heard the bubbles enter the keg. The pressure built slowly and then I quickly released the tap connector's built-in relief valve to hopefully get out a lot of the atmosphere and leave more pure O2. This also allowed me to enter more pure O2 under and through the wort. The bottle pressure barely made it to 10 psi, and after the first release of gas from the keg I started rocking the keg. The pressure shot to 11 psi and I called it good.

I un-tapped and rolled the keg into the house. Once in the fermentation spot, I started rocking and shaking the keg. I attached the SV and the pressure had already dropped to 8 psi. Now, every time I walked by the keg I shook it and visibly saw the pressure drop on the SV. I kept shaking it just to see how much O2 I could get absorbed, but it had settled on a little under 4 psi and no attempt after that did anything except stir the yeast up IMHO.

As for today, no activity other than the psi holding at 4 psi or just a smidge over that and the temperature on top of the keg and for the room are the same (69*F). I will document when I see gas production on the SV gauge.

The last beer took a while to show any action, and I chalk this up to the CO2 being absorbed instead of building much head pressure. The yeast seemed to like the cooler temperatures last time except they were slow. I had it by a door to the garage and it floated from 59*F to 63*F during checks in the morning before work and then after when I got home.

I know this method might seem crazy to some, but it is an experiment. I am thinking this method will come in handy for lagers or any beer that doesn't have much more than bittering hops. Even for beers that do have later additions, I can see the ease of adding hop tea later in the process. Since lager is where the main focus is, this method would allow me a couple of days to build a real wort starter (RWS) and just suck it in the keg when it is ready to go followed by O2 injection. I will test that theory out with no shaking later, since my lager freezer would make it impossible to move the keg once filled.

Since I really want to stir things up a bit, I am still working on my inner-Sanke fermentor stir-bar and side attached stir-plate. This would ease my fear of not getting the pressurized O2 into solution better like I did with this attempt at shaking, as well as allow me the function of keeping yeast in a more suspended state during primary fermentation. Unlike a stirred starter, I wouldn't have to worry about constant O2 going into the fermenting beer since I am under a positive pressure environment and CO2 would push the O2 out once the beer starts fermenting. I now I have talked about this before, so please excuse my rehashing. I am doing this for all those who don't read the whole thread but are curious. Faster maturation time after the primary is my main goal with the stir-bar, if it speeds up or more attenuates the beer then so be it as an added extra bonus.:rockin:

WortMonger said:

muse435, you transferred from secondary to primary? I assume it is the other way around. I am unable to answer without more definitive information, but if the beer was done or almost done fermenting and you are losing pressure then you have a leak. If it is newly fermenting wort... it can take a few days sometimes to show any pressure due to the wort absorbing the CO2. It just depends. Let me know more information and I can help you better.

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Sorry I should have clarified. I primaried in a bucket, then secondaried in a better bottle, then transfered to a corny keg w/ spunding valve. All fermentation had stopped and the gravity remained the same for several days. I am naturally carbing in my keg, as a result i assume there would be relatively little CO2 in solution, so the CO2 used to seal the keg would have began to equalize therefore slightly reducing the internal PSI.

Since my post the pressure has risen slightly over time, I under stand it will take a while to naturally carb. According to my calculations 22.9 PSI is the desired and right now it is at 21 PSI. I have the spunding valve completely closed to build up the initial pressure. Once it hits ~25 PSI I plan on backing it down to 22.9 PSI for the remaining duration of the conditioning.