Opening APA day by day log.

Conditioning -The process of adding C02 to the in beer. -Charlie Popazian. It's not aging or cellaring.

Many times it has been said that bottle conditioning takes one to three weeks. I have posted that I have had fully carbonated beer in four days here a few times and it can excite some people to the verge of flame war. My limited experience has proved different to other's opinions. I'm not saying all brews will work like this. Many would be a waste to even try.

I have never done a day by day tasting like this before. Some of my batches I did not open the first brew for well over a week. All of the bottles that I have opened after four days (one of those days it being in the fridge) the beer was fully carbonated

This brew started at 1.050, was three weeks in primary and finished at 1.010. It was bottled on Sunday with five onces of dextrose. The bottles have been kept at 70f.

• Monday--I shook one up well and put in the freezer and then in the fridge for only a few hours total. Some CO2 pressure was released when opening. No carbonation in the beer. It was not very appetizing.
  
• Tuesday--A little more Co2 pressure and some carbonation in the beer. Very enjoyable, decent mouth feel (my best APA yet.) It was shook up and put in a 40f fridge for three hours. I put another one in the fridge for an hour and a half but didn't shake it up. It had less carbonated but still had some.
  
• Wednesday--I put one in a 38f fridge for ten hours. I did not shake it. It had about the same carbonation level as the one I had yesterday. This one tasted a little more green.
  
• Thursday--Done carbonating. Very good head retention and nice lacing. This one I shook up on Tuesday and put it by it's self in a cabinet next to the dish washer.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  A little aging would certainly help, none the less a very tasty ale.
  

I don't know why it works like this for me and not others? Maybe the yeasties just like me.

Anyone who says that full carbonation is not possible in less the a week doesn't know what their talking about. There are no off flavors with this batch. The only thing more time is going to do is meld the different flavors together.

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Edit at One week-I put two in the fridge. Four hours latter I opened the first one. The flavor is a little more blended together, not much. The dry-hoped half of this batch is most likely carbonated but I'll certainly let it age.

i've had plenty of beers that carbed within a week but they still tasted green as hell and needed the additional time just to age and mellow.

i WISH I had a place that was CLOSE to 70 degrees in my house. My carbing is taking MUCH longer and I'm looking for ways to warm things up.

fully carbed after 4 days? I think you will have doubters - what is you definition of fully carb.

jcdillin said:

i've had plenty of beers that carbed within a week but they still tasted green as hell and needed the additional time just to age and mellow.

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Exactly. It's not about how quickly the beer carbs, I'm sure many people can have a beer carbed in 4 days... the three weeks is for aging, not carbing.

I suggest you do this test for 3 weeks and see the difference in flavor too.

When I bottled a stout it tasted whack going into the bottles so I thought it had better condition for a long time. After a week I just could not help myself. I had to cool one and open it for a taste. To my surprise it tasted much better. Sadly I drank the second to last of that batch last night and it hasn't gotten all that much better than the first one yet. It seems that it would have taken months and not just weeks for it to age. That wasn't a very big beer.

I will see how this one has aged in three weeks. Like I said I'm happy how it tastes now at three week. I don't think it tastes green and I like how the hop flavors are right now. Even with it all shook up the yeast doesn't bother me. It would be great if a experienced brewer could taste it but I don't know of any near here. A few experienced beer drinkers will be having a few with me but I can't trust their opinions. They'd say anything for a free beer.

I really can't wait to tasted the other half of this 10 gallon batch. Is still in a better bottle with two onces of cascades.

JMD87 said:

Exactly. It's not about how quickly the beer carbs, I'm sure many people can have a beer carbed in 4 days... the three weeks is for aging, not carbing.

I suggest you do this test for 3 weeks and see the difference in flavor too.

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If the 3 weeks is for aging, why not just leave it in the bucket or carboy longer to age?

My understanding on the issue is that it took 3 weeks to properly carbonate a beer in the bottle. However, in "The Homebrewers' Recipe Guide" they suggest about a week to carbonate in the bottles.

In any case, if your beer is carbonated and tastes good, drink up!

My house is staying at 70f now and I've not yet turned on the heat. It's one of the perks of living in the far northern reaches of the Mojave desert in a masonry house. The down side is the long hot summer, but hey I love summer.

The one I opened today was not as good but just as carbonated as yesterday's. I did not shake this one up. I put it in the fridge this morning and drank it when I got home form work. A week or two will do some good for sure.

If the 3 weeks is for aging, why not just leave it in the bucket or carboy longer to age?

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The only reason I can think of is that as the yeast clean things up and some byproducts can be released when in a fermenter but in a bottle it would be capped up. Basically I believe if it tastes good and it's done fermenting bottle it, but then again some ales just don't taste good warm and flat.

How are you defining 'fully carbed'? What parameters have you set for being fully carbonated?

I believe it has all the carbonation it will ever have. See the first post again for the pictures.

I drank the last of the four cases of this batch today (except for what I have stashed away for Christmas gifts.) The two I had today were not very much better than the one I had at four days from bottling seen in the pictures. Simply Delicious.

It has cooled down here a lot. We are even having a odd snow storm. My last two batches did not carb as fast.

I've had a Wit fully carbed and ready to go in 5 days. I riddled the bottles every day, and kept them at 75*F. Since it's a Wit, no need for further conditioning.

On the other hand, my tripel took two weeks to carbonate but I waited two months before cracking the first bottle, and it still needs a few more months before it will be REALLY good...

I understand you. It very much depend on the brew, the health of the yeasties and the yeast's environment (temps and ABV.) I just got a little perturbed about this bunch of quack:

Revvy said:

What you have after four days is what we have called false carbonation, the stuff HAS NOT BEEN REABSORBED BACK INTO SOLUTION...like in the NOT silly video...You can't tell by "shaking up the bottles" whether they are carbed or not...

You really can't jump start mother nature...we don't say it takes three weeks minimum to kerk your chain....It's a natural process ...

But if you want to believe you have fully carbed up beer, and the rest of us brewers with more that 24 batches of beer are full of crap, then go right ahead.

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i have yet to have a batch that was not carbed at 7 days. and i always test one.and after three weeks, the carb is the same as at 7 days.

however, the beer tasted like ass at 7 days. at 14 was pretty good. and at 21, i drank it all.
now i have started over. my IPA is 2 weeks in the bottle today. i had 2 saturday that were very good. i had two yesterday that tasted kinda ****ty. not sure why. maybe i was too drunk saturday to notice it tasted like crap? i dunno!
another week, im sure it will be alot better.

I live in an older home in New England (i.e. pretty cold inside). Our house is typically around 66F during the day (62F at night). I don't have anywhere in my house that's around 70F.

As a result, I've had some issues with bottle conditioning. I have a batch of Haus Pale Ale that still isn't fully carbed after 5 weeks.

I've been using an aquarium heater and water bath to control fermentation temperatures, so I decided to use it to for bottle conditioning. One week at 74F and my Dunkelweizen is fully carbed (pretty darn tasty too).

I also added a small water pump from Harbor Freight (per someone's idea here at HBT) that results in much more even temps in the water bath.

My fermentation/conditioning water bath is now the only warm place in my whole house. Maybe I'll start sleeping next to it...

If the 3 weeks is for aging, why not just leave it in the bucket or carboy longer to age?

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Thats what I do 2 weeks in the Primary, 3-4 weeks in the secondary then force carb in the keg for a week at serving pressure

Conroe said:

I understand you. It very much depend on the brew, the health of the yeasties and the yeast's environment (temps and ABV.) I just got a little perturbed about this bunch of quack:

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Conroe - I'm not trying to pick fight with you... I read what Revy said in this post but didn't try to find the whole thread discussion so I don't know how it lead to this...

It seems like you have an axe to grind with him. He's a nice guy and helps alot of people here on the board. Just my $0.02!

The CO2 argument is kind of pointless since you can get it to your liking in 7 days by your methods. I think it depends on a lot of things; how much sugar, did you weight it, or measure it by volume, bulk prime, or add sugar to the bottle, storage temps, fill level, sugar fermentability, % ABV of the beer, how active the yeast is, and how much yeast is present in your beer.

I keep my beers in the primary 3 weeks, I 2ndary for 4-6 weeks. The latter all depends how busy I am at the time. In general when I bottle my beer is extremely clean and clear. It takes longer for my brews to reach full carbonation, about 3 weeks, but they rarely have a green beer taste. When I pour a fully carbed beer its very very clean looking! That's what I want to see (unless its a wheat).

Do what you like, do what works, its your beer!!

Grinder12000 said:

i WISH I had a place that was CLOSE to 70 degrees in my house. My carbing is taking MUCH longer and I'm looking for ways to warm things up.

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During the winter, if I want a beer to carb kinda quickly, I take a big plastic box with a lid, I put a case of beer in it, and run a heating pad into the box. I wrap a blanket around the box and turn the heating pad on a low setting. Then I monitor the temp. I can keep the box pretty stable around 70* long enough to carb the beers.

Schlenkerla, the point of this thread was not who's brews are better. I'm sure both you and Ravvy have me beat there. The point is it is possible to carbonate in four days. Ravvy said that that defies the laws of nature. More brewers than me know that was incorrect. I don't like the way he insinuated me to be a liar with his smart ass attitude. At least he gave me a great sig. (I'd remove it if he asked.)

I'm not out to win any contests--just to brew the best I can without waisting any unneeded time. I found that some beers do not necessarily need three weeks in the bottle and one week can suffice. Even Kai's Alt recipe says something close to that.

Conroe - I will PM you.

Then Remove it..

Schlenkerla said:

Conroe - I'm not trying to pick fight with you... I read what Revy said in this post but didn't try to find the whole thread discussion so I don't know how it lead to this...

It seems like you have an axe to grind with him. He's a nice guy and helps alot of people here on the board. Just my $0.02!

The CO2 argument is kind of pointless since you can get it to your liking in 7 days by your methods. I think it depends on a lot of things; how much sugar, did you weight it, or measure it by volume, bulk prime, or add sugar to the bottle, storage temps, fill level, sugar fermentability, % ABV of the beer, how active the yeast is, and how much yeast is present in your beer.

I keep my beers in the primary 3 weeks, I 2ndary for 4-6 weeks. The latter all depends how busy I am at the time. In general when I bottle my beer is extremely clean and clear. It takes longer for my brews to reach full carbonation, about 3 weeks, but they rarely have a green beer taste. When I pour a fully carbed beer its very very clean looking! That's what I want to see (unless its a wheat).

Do what you like, do what works, its your beer!!

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Ay, there's the rub!

I think we must differentiate between bottle carbing and force carbing as well. I suspect (just a guess) that adding sugar jump starts the yeasties and gets them producing flavors that need mellowing again. I don't think anyone would argue that force carbing takes a week, I've had good carbonation levels after a day if the conditions are right, and yes, depending on the beer it can taste just as good at a week as it does in 3.

To achieve proper carbonation levels through bottle conditioning may only take 3 days, but I can't imagine that the taste is the same at 3 days as it is at 3 weeks after bottle conditioning.

lordbeermestrength said:

Ay, there's the rub!
I suspect (just a guess) that adding sugar jump starts the yeasties and gets them producing flavors that need mellowing again.

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neve even considered that.
i have a haus pale batch that tastes like **** right now. it was 4 weeks primary, cold crashed for three days, bottled, and tasted last night @ 6 days in bottle. i poured that sucker.
we will see what happens at 14 days.

my ipa PM was very good @ with one more week in the bottle. better than than last week by a large degree. i was suprised.

Cold crashing can't be good for bottle conditioning. You'd end up with a minuscule yeast population in a anaerobic environment. Happy yeast make better beer. I'm going to cold crash the bottles until I can keg. Likewise with bigger longer fermented beers I'd bet adding fresh bottling yeast will help speed up carbing as well. Many commercial brewers filter and use a different yeast to bottle condition. Some think it's to hide their proprietary strains but I believe it to use yeast with better suited properties for bottling.

There is alot more involved in bottle conditioning than just carbonation.

Cold crashing can't be good for bottle conditioning. You'd end up with a minuscule yeast population in a anaerobic environment.

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I have to call BS on this. Cold-crashing results in a clearer beer while leaving plenty of yeast still remaining in suspension to properly carbonate and condition your beer. I have cold-crashed beers for several weeks at 38° and they still naturally carbonated and conditioned without a hitch during my normal three week bottle conditioning phase. There was absolutely no appreciable difference between going straight to packaging and cold-crashing first, then racking to the package.

flyangler18 said:

I have to call BS on this. Cold-crashing results in a clearer beer while leaving plenty of yeast still remaining in suspension to properly carbonate and condition your beer. I have cold-crashed beers for several weeks at 38° and they still naturally carbonated and conditioned without a hitch during my normal three week bottle conditioning phase. There was absolutely no appreciable difference between going straight to packaging and cold-crashing first, then racking to the package.

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Now I'm really confused.. Are you telling me I should chill my beer to 38*, then bottle and leave the bottles at 38* and I can expect good carbonation?

I could see this as being a possiblilty if I used a lager yeast, but I use ale yeasts. What I do is bottle my upper 60's* beer, then I leave them sit in the upper 60's for 3 weeks... Chill the in fridge for a couple of days, pop the top and enjoy.

I always thought that cold crashing was only used when you can force carbonate with CO2....

Now I'm really confused.. Are you telling me I should chill my beer to 38*, then bottle and leave the bottles at 38* and I can expect good carbonation?

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Jeffro,

Even ales benefit from cold-crashing. It encourages the yeast and other particulates in the beer to drop out of suspension. The yeast cake will compact as well, making it less likely to be disturbed when you move the carboy. Bottle as usual, and leave the bottles to condition at 70° for 3 weeks.

Jason

flyangler18 said:

Jeffro,

Even ales benefit from cold-crashing. It encourages the yeast and other particulates in the beer to drop out of suspension. The yeast cake will compact as well, making it less likely to be disturbed when you move the carboy. Bottle as usual, and leave the bottles to condition at 70° for 3 weeks.

Jason

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Thanks for the info Jason... Maybe I should move the carboy I'm about to bottle out to the shed for a couple of days before hand?

With my cream ale I filled a one gallon glass jug and crashed it and bottled the rest. The crashed part did take longer to carbonate. Many other factors could have had an effect on it. Still three weeks would be enough. The question is whether or not it would have tasted just as good in less time if it was not crashed? Clarity is not really a flavor issue.

Clarity is not really a flavor issue.

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You are quite mistaken. Pay particular attention to the last sentence.

From How to Brew:

Towards the end of secondary fermentation, the suspended yeast flocculates (settles out) and the beer clears. High molecular weight proteins also settle out during this stage. Tannin/phenol compounds will bind with the proteins and also settle out, greatly smoothing the taste of the beer. This process can be helped by chilling the beer, very similar to the lagering process. In the case of ales, this process is referred to as Cold Conditioning, and is a popular practice at most brewpubs and microbreweries. Cold conditioning for a week clears the beer with or without the use of finings. Fining agents, such as isinglass (fish bladders), Polyclar (plastic dust), and gelatin, are added to the fermentor to help speed the flocculation process and promote the settling of haze forming proteins and tannins. While much of the emphasis on using finings is to combat aesthetic chill haze, the real benefit of dropping those compounds is to improve the taste and stability of the beer.

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I feel the need to +1 the idea that conditioning is not equal to carbing. Carbing is a subset of the conditioning process. Of lesser importance to my tastes than the flavor refinement that occurs.

I have mentioned this before. The tastes associated with green beer are not sensed by all people. Their tastebuds just do not pick them up. This is not a statement on the taster's sophistication or skills as a human being. It is a genetic thing. In the exact way that some people cannot taste salt, or smell cyanide.

I happen to be very sensitive to the off flavors present in green beer and to this date have never had a beer that had shed those off flavors in less than three weeks in the bottle.

dontman said:

I feel the need to +1 the idea that conditioning is not equal to carbing. Carbing is a subset of the conditioning process. Of lesser importance to my tastes than the flavor refinement that occurs.

I have mentioned this before. The tastes associated with green beer are not sensed by all people. Their tastebuds just do not pick them up. This is not a statement on the taster's sophistication or skills as a human being. It is a genetic thing. In the exact way that some people cannot taste salt, or smell cyanide.

I happen to be very sensitive to the off flavors present in green beer and to this date have never had a beer that had shed those off flavors in less than three weeks in the bottle.

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I don't know about sophistication and all that... What I DO know is that I usually have 2 to 3 batches of beers in the bottle conditioning stage at all times. I check them each after a week, then 2 weeks, and so on. I pretty much brew a stock APA every time. Same grain bill, Same yeast, and attempt to reproduce the same conditions every time. Of the 30-5 gallon batches I have brewed over the last year, I tried making 21 of them the same APA... The others were 3 Hefs, 2 Stouts, 1 Pils, and 3 Porters.

I tried and tried to replicate the same beer over and over again, but it didn't happen. WHY? I don't know... The beers are all AWESOME, but they don't all taste the same.

They also have different carbonation characteristics as far as head retention and lacing goes.

They are all great beers either way.

Jeffro said:

Thanks for the info Jason... Maybe I should move the carboy I'm about to bottle out to the shed for a couple of days before hand?

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My pleasure.

I'd say 3-4 days will do well- although a week would be better.

Aside form carbonation time and sediment what difference does crashing a case of beer have over a better bottle? I can fit a case of bottles in my fridge but not a fermenter.

I think its about getting flocculation. Getting the yeast to go dormant and drop out of solution quickly. It can be done in the bottle, but thats the least desirable spot to have sediment. Correct me if I'm wrong, I believe crash cooling is faster than just letting yeast settle out on its own. This seems to be a common thing for kegging. Its a fast way to separate a substantial amount of yeast from the beer w/o filtering. Many home brewers do this with kegs and a little bit of gelatin as they connect them to CO2

I think if you crash cool you will still have the green beer taste once it well carbed, but that depends on the beer type. I'm guessing a low ABV like a pub ale, bitter, or mild it won't matter too much. Start getting into ESB, Porters, Alts, and IIPAs and I think its a different story.

I don't crash cool my beers, so you can take my comments with a grain of salt. I usually have plenty of beer on hand so I'm predisposed to let the beer sit longer in the primary and 2ndarys. I can have as many as 9 fermenters going at a time.

Its not uncommon to have beer in the primary 3 weeks then rack to 2ndary for 3-4 weeks. My beers are pretty clear on the way to 2ndary. I probably don't need the 2ndary but I like the beer to be clean and have minimal sediment in the bottle. I take a risk of oxidation by doing so but I have yet to detect this. Therefore I keep doing it...

My beers at 3 weeks (carbed) are rarely green. I had my Saison at about 3 months and it was definately green but at 5 months it was great. My Saison is about 8%. Its one those beers you can store for special occasions. I generally assume any high ABV beer could be like that.

I have a cyser made with mead yeast that I'd say exemplifies the need for long time conditioning.

I don't have a whole lot of sediment in my bottles and most of the time it just sticks there when I pour--even if I dump out the last drop. I do wish they were more clear. I just made a immersion chiller. I hope it helps. The second half of this APA batch that was in a secondary for the dry hops was a little bit more clear than the one just in the primary for three weeks. I seen them side by side.