CRS Carbonate Reducing solution

I would have expected that when an acid is added to carbonate, some CO2 formation would be observed. I add it, and it is like I added water. Those of you that use CRS or another acid, do you see any CO2 production?

The acid addition and subsequent alkalinity reduction is relatively small in the big picture. For instance, a huge water alkalinity number could be about 400 ppm as CaCO3 which equates to about 480 ppm bicarbonate. That is 480 parts per million which is less than 0.05 percent (0.00048).

The reaction of an acid upon bicarbonate is to produce equal amounts of water and CO2. But as highlighted above, the percentage of bicarbonate in the water is actually quite small and the resulting quantity of CO2 may be too small to observe and it probably remains dissolved in the water.

To answer the direct question, I am a lactic acid user and I've never seen bubbles from the water due to my acid additions. I do see bubbles collecting on the side of the kettle as I'm heating the water. That is the result of all the dissolved gases in the water being forced from the solution due to the heating.

Don't worry about it.

Thanks, Martin, I think I am getting on top of water treatment now...

By the way, one of my goals is to figure out the combined pKa values for the mixture of hydrochloric and sulfuric acid used in CRS so that it can be added to the acid selections in Bru'n Water so that you Limey's can consider it. Of course I need to produce a SI version of the program in conjunction with that.

SI - that takes me back to nightschool 45 years ago when CGS units were being replaced - and clearly Brupaks told you what was in CRS, that is great.

Brupaks was not forthcoming with any information. I queried them directly regarding the strength and percentages of each acid and I still have not heard from them.

It was from AJ that I first heard of this product and he mentioned it was the sulfuric/hydrochloric blend.

Do we want to add chloride? What if we used n/10 H2SO4 ? or n/100 ? Why do you use lactic acid Martin?

Adding chloride or sulfate from an acid is the same as adding it via a mineral. You would have to determine what level of chloride or sulfate is appropriate to your taste and beer style.

Chloride levels of more than 100 ppm are rare in most historic brewing waters. Only Dortmund (130ppm) exceeds that level. I am of the opinion that keeping chloride below 100 ppm is a good goal. It must be kept under 100 if the sulfate level is greater than 100 ppm to avoid harshness.

The n/10 or n/100 refers to the acid's normality (strength). They are suitable for use as long as you account for the differing strength. Bru'n Water's acid calculators include a strength input.

I use lactic primarily because it is the most available acid in most US homebrew shops. That said, tonight I'm picking up a pint of 75% phosphoric that a group of my clubmates purchased. That acid is a much more neutral flavor than lactic. But if your acid additions are moderate, you may not have much of a taste impact with lactic.

My chloride level is 60 ppm and so just adding sulphuric acid would seem sensible. With a hardness as Ca of 110 ppm and alkalinity of 175 ppm as CaCO3 = 132 HCO3 how much n/100 sulpuric is needed, or should I dribble it in until pH is <7 ?

mabrungard said:

That said, tonight I'm picking up a pint of 75% phosphoric that a group of my clubmates purchased. That acid is a much more neutral flavor than lactic.

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Your mention of phosphoric acid reminded me of something I wondered about when I first read it. In "How to Brew", 3rd edition, page 164, in the section "Determining Acid Additions to Lower the Mash pH", Palmer says "Phosphoric acid is not recommended, because it reacts chemically with calcium in the mash and changes the whole playing field, rather than simply adjusting the pH."

Can you explain what he is talking about? I don't know whether to use phosphoric or not.

DeafSmith said:

Your mention of phosphoric acid reminded me of something I wondered about when I first read it. In "How to Brew", 3rd edition, page 164, in the section "Determining Acid Additions to Lower the Mash pH", Palmer says "Phosphoric acid is not recommended, because it reacts chemically with calcium in the mash and changes the whole playing field, rather than simply adjusting the pH."

Can you explain what he is talking about? I don't know whether to use phosphoric or not.

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That subject was discussed recently on the Brewing Network Forum. AJ and Colin Kaminski lead most of it, but I think the final outcome was that there is a substantial quantity of phosphate compounds in the wort from the grist (like 1% which is 10,000 ppm). The typical phosphoric acid addition is in the tens of ppm range and therefore, the effect of adding phosphoric is likely to be negligible.

Although calcium/phosphate complexing is very real and it will typically precipitate calcium, I think that John got that one wrong. Phosphoric acid addition is OK. I'm hoping AJ see's this and comments.

Thanks for answering that, Martin. Looks like I need to start following yet one more brewing forum.