Brewing drier beers?

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

perry

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 29, 2006
Messages
218
Reaction score
0
Hey, everyone. I'm trying to get my pale ales and IPA's to taste less sweet... not necessarily lower alcohol, just less of that sweet-tongue feel. I've cut way back on the crystal and cara-pils and I'm mashing in at 150 (dropping to 142 after two hours) but it seems that I'm still getting some residual sugar... more than I want, anyway.

Any suggestions?

Thanks, p
 
You're already doing what can be done to get lower FGs--mashing at lower temp, using less crystal, etc.

What yeast strain(s) are you using? You could try a more attenuative yeast strain.

What FGs are you getting and what are you going for? This seems like an odd problem to me--I'm usually more concerned with not letting the FG get too low, which gives most ales a BMC-ish quality to my tastes.
 
I'd try the high atten. yeast first. Nottinham for dry. Not sure about liquid. none of wyeast's starins claim to go more than 77% max.

You could also try mashing at 131 - 150 range for 1hr (140 - 150 would be best.) That's almost pure beta range. Then mash at 160 for 15 to make sure everything is converted. If you don't mash at 160 then hold that beta mash for longer. beta works slower.

Alpha runs 154 and up though it will work slowly below that, I'd try 146 for 1.5 hrs and see how that goes.
 
You can mash lower, use adjuncts (corn/rice), less crystal/dextrine malt, use sugar, use a more highly attenuative yeast, hop slightly higher (bittering), carbonate slightly higher. The latter two will create the illusion of a less sweet beer which is often half the battle. I reckon the reason for most sweet tasting beers is that someone has followed a recipe based on a certain number of IBU's, yet their set-up has given them less than intended (which can be down to countless reasons).

Begin by mashing lower, use an attentive yeast and using less crystal.
 
mysterio said:
You can mash lower, use adjuncts (corn/rice), less crystal/dextrine malt, use sugar, use a more highly attenuative yeast, hop slightly higher (bittering), carbonate slightly higher. The latter two will create the illusion of a less sweet beer which is often half the battle. I reckon the reason for most sweet tasting beers is that someone has followed a recipe based on a certain number of IBU's, yet their set-up has given them less than intended (which can be down to countless reasons).

Begin by mashing lower, use an attentive yeast and using less crystal.
I was going to mention several of those also, especially using a tad more bittering hops and some rice syrup. I would also recommend setting in the secondary a bit more to get the FG down under 1.010.:D
 
Thanks for the feedback. I'm using mostly American Ale, German Ale, and Irish ale yeasts, and getting FG's anywhere from 1.009 to 1.014.

An average batch of pale usually includes 1/2 lb crystal and 1/2 lb cara-pils. Does that seem like a lot, given my goal for drier beers?

Also, I'm generally shooting for 14 to 17 AAU's bittering, but I'm using whole hops and hop sacks, so I may not be getting the full effect.

The carbonation thing is interesting.... I do tend to carb my beers a bit lower, serving and storing at about 10 PSI. I'll try upping that a bit.
 
perry said:
Thanks for the feedback. I'm using mostly American Ale, German Ale, and Irish ale yeasts, and getting FG's anywhere from 1.009 to 1.014.

That's pretty dry, really. I'd be disappointed if most of the beers I brewed fermented out to 1.009.

I might be tempted to say that whatever quality it is that you're disatisfied with in your beers, I don't necessarily think a lower FG would fix it.
 
Definately try more bittering hops, perry.

IBU's are very subjective. The name 'international bittering units' is pretty misleading, like somehow they're objective. Then you have the question of the BU:GU ratio. Remember bitterness is primarily there to balance sweetness. 50 IBU's may be too bitter in a light lager but too sweet in an IPA. Hop sacks and whole hops will both be pulling your bitterness down - that's not to say they're bad methods, just use more.
 
I was going to suggest making sure you pitch adequate yeast (do a big starter) and making sure to aerate really well, but those FG ranges are about spot on, especially considering the yeasts you mention. In that case I definately put in a vote for more bittering hops. This should balance out the sweetness and it should be percieved less in that case. What were your OGs for those ranges? Remember for a beer like an IPA you want BU:GU (bitterness:grain units) of right around 1.
 
Monster Mash said:
Crush a few tablets of beano and toss them in the fermenter. I guarantee you will have dry beer....

I have heard this too. it was in an article in BYO a few months back.
 
Crystal contributes complex unfermentables & sweetness. Either cut down or eliminate it and use a highly roasted malt for color.

Beano will break down complex sugars so they can ferment. It will be dry and have very little mouthfeel.
 
david_42 said:
Crystal contributes complex unfermentables & sweetness. Either cut down or eliminate it and use a highly roasted malt for color.

Beano will break down complex sugars so they can ferment. It will be dry and have very little mouthfeel.
So, what you're saying is if you use Beano then you should also use a little Malto Dextrin? (Not to be confused with Dextrin Malt) Sounds like a good balance.
 
Try making one of your IPAs as a lager, with lager yeast at lager temps.

If your palate is sensitive to 'sweetness' all ales will be too much.
 
homebrewer_99 said:
So, what you're saying is if you use Beano then you should also use a little Malto Dextrin? (Not to be confused with Dextrin Malt) Sounds like a good balance.

Actually Bill it looks like Dextrin is the problem not the solution. I found the article. Its in the July-August BYO on page 17 (Mr. Wizard). The problem that was presented was excessive foam. It says that Beano contains an enzyme called amyloglucosidase (AMG). It slowly converts dextrins into fermentable sugars. Slow enough so that you think it's done and it is actually not. So the bottled beer becomes excessivly carbonated and hence foams a bit more then normal. He suggests another way to use beano using it in the mash water.
 
beano will also conver maltodextrin to fermentable sugar.

I think you need to bump up the IBU and posibly flavoring hops. The percieved bitterness in flav hops also imparts a "dryness" to the tounge.

What recipes have you been doing?

Oh, and what CO2 level are you carbing at?
 
thanks for this thread - i couldn't figure out why my barleywine bottled in april was so foamy
i had used beano back in feb to lower the fg to the required range - and now i see it has probably kept working in the bottles - i guess i will have to keep venting until it settles down
 
Beer Snob said:
Actually Bill it looks like Dextrin is the problem not the solution. I found the article. Its in the July-August BYO on page 17 (Mr. Wizard). The problem that was presented was excessive foam. It says that Beano contains an enzyme called amyloglucosidase (AMG). It slowly converts dextrins into fermentable sugars. Slow enough so that you think it's done and it is actually not. So the bottled beer becomes excessivly carbonated and hence foams a bit more then normal. He suggests another way to use beano using it in the mash water.
Thanks, it was more of a question and you answered it finely. Denny too.:D

I don't use Beano anyway, just curious.:confused:
 
I'm intrigued by the hop-sack debate.... I've always used them because of the way my boiler works. I've got a fifteen gallon keg with a 1/2 inch nipple welded through the side (I'd show a picture if I knew how). This nipple is fitted inside the keg with a short down tube that draws the beer almost from the bottom (I think this is a common design); the last couple of gallons of each batch rely on a siphon action, and I've been afraid that using whole loose hops would clog the drain, or at least inhibit the siphon action... and I'd be forced to stick a hose into the cooled wort to get the rest.

Alternatives? Hop pellets?

I agree that I should use more bittering hops... I'll try that this weekend.

In answer to clayof2day's question, my OG's are anywhere from 53- 65.

thanks, p
 
I just saw Lou's question: Yeah, I'm shooting for something like Sierra Nevada's pale or Rogue's Brutal Bitter. Anderson Valley's IPA is in there, too, if I remember rightly, and some un-bottled pub stuff like Rubicon's IPA in Sacramento, or Great Basin's Ichy IPA in Reno.

The trend in commercial ales, at least to my palate, seems to be toward the sweeter end. I'm thinking of Stone IPA (sweet and very floral finish) or like Fat Tire Ales.... almost more like an amber.
 
You want dry? do a partial mash, just as you've been doing, then boil honey, enough to make up the rest of the fermentable sugars. About 1/2 grain 1/2 honey... It will be very, very dry.
 
Grimsawyer said:
You want dry? do a partial mash, just as you've been doing, then boil honey, enough to make up the rest of the fermentable sugars. About 1/2 grain 1/2 honey... It will be very, very dry.

Yeah right and ten months to ferment out :)
 
I have actually never used them.... they are not a beer product, but a cooking product. They supposingly prevent you from having too much gas...... you put them in like chili... stuff spicy.... You can find information on the net about using them in beer with splenda for a more "diet" beer I suppose....

http://www.beanogas.com/
 
1.009 is pretty dry. I think a FG much lower would make the beer too thin. A drier beer will, of course, be less sweet but if you take it too far then the beer becomes watery swill - at least that's my opinion. I think you're underhopping your beer... more hops and the beer will effectively taste less sweet and you won't sacrifice the mouthfeel. Put an extra ounce of chinook in that sucker at the start of the boil and I promise it will not taste sweet.

If you really do want to go lower though here's a few ideas:
-Use a lb or two of rice in the mash and/or add .5 - 1 lbs of corn sugar to the boil. Basically what you need to do is to up the alcohol using a method that will not add additional unfermentables (i.e. rice or corn sugar)
-mash longer - you can achieve total starch conversion quickly but the enzymes will continue to act to further breakdown the sugars; this is why a mashout is a good idea. 2hrs seems like an awfully long time but I suppose you could mash over night or start in the morning and finish in the evening. I would be worried though that some nasties could start fermenting the mash if you let it sit too long. I don't think you'd get it hot enough for long enough to kill all the naturally occuring wild yeast and bacteria. Anyhow I do recall reading a Mr. Wizaard column about a guy who would mash over night and was complaining that his beer kept turning out too watery.
-don't mash too low or too high, remember alpha and beta work together to convert the starches. Beta amylase works best after alpha has broken the amylopectin chains into smaller pieces; alpha will break down the chains such that a greater number of maltose molecules available for the beta to break down even further. I think you've got the right idea with your mash temps but I'd start out a bit higher to encourage some alpha activity and then really let it cool down. I'd suggest starting at 152F and then letting the mash cool to the 135F range over the course of 2 or so hours. Make sure that the temp drops below 150F within 30 minutes so that the beta amylase is not denatured
-Thinner mashes will yield a greater proportion of fermentable sugars because the enzymatic activity is not retarded by the high concentration of starches/sugars in the mash. Try 2 - 2.5 quarts of water per lb of grain.
-A protein rest will also result in a thinner feeling beer. Typically it would be a bad idea for mashes using highly modified malts but in your case you say you want thin/dry beer... a protein rest may be just the thing.
 
Lost,

Great response, thanks! And thanks to the others, too. I conduct my mash pretty much according to Dave Miller's guidelines. His book has been like a bible to me over the years...

I'm brewing today, and I'm going to try the thinner mash. My usual MO is to use 1.3 qts/ lb, but today I'll bump it up to 2.

I mash in at 150-151, wrap the whole thing in down sleeping bags, and let it sit. It drops only five to seven degrees in two hours... given that beta amylase works best at around 140 do you think the mash is actually not cooling down enough?

BTW, you're right about the hop schedule. I just tasted this IPA I made about three weeks ago with 20 AAU's and it's more along the lines of what I like.... still green of course but nicely bittered. I've gotta keep my hands off of it for awhile. (Fat chance.)

thanks ,
p
 
Oops.

Lost, I just read your recommendations more carefully. You addressed the temp thing. Sorry.

p
 
Back
Top