Advice on water quality?

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FlyGuy

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Location
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So I think I want to give all grain brewing a shot, but I read that water quality is more important to AG brewing. I have started reading about water quality issues in brewing, but it gets pretty complicated.

I have obtained my municipal water quality report, and I know my tap water is considered 'hard'. So darker beers, like porters and stouts should be OK. But I am wondering about paler beer, like a Pilsener -- perhaps I will have to do some water adjustments? I have this vague recollection of Chairman Cheyco saying that our Calgary water was 'not great' or something, so I am generally a bit worried about all-grain brewing with it. There is lots of advice on water on this site, but frankly, I am not sure how any of it applies to my situation.

Can anyone with some experience in this area provide some feedback about issues that may arise using Calgary tap water? Here is a quick summary of the water quality (full details are here):

Hardness as CaCO3: 144 – 185 mg/L
pH: 6.80 - 8.01
Total dissolved solids: 177.2 – 211.2 mg/L

Bicarbonate as CaC03: 92.3 – 137.5 mg/L
Calcium: 39.8 – 55.4 mg/L
Chloride: 2.36 – 6.20 mg/L
Free Chlorine residual: 0.78 - 1.53 mg/L
Magnesium: 10.6 - 16.1 mg/L
Sodium: 2.24 – 4.01 mg/L
Sulfate: 38.8 – 51.3 mg/L


Thanks!
 
The information that I got from BYO.com was that you want calcium to be high (100-250 ppm) and carbonites low 50ppm or less.
 
From what I've read you need water with very low levels of dissolved solids for a Pilsner. The only adjustments you could make to achieve this would be to remove the unwanted salts already present in the water. Pre boiling would precipitate some of the CaCO3, but for an RO system is the only thing I know of that would bring your water into line with that found in Pilsen.
Adding some Gypsum however should produce a water profile that would be fine for Pale Ales.

-a.
 
Ordinary Carbon Filtration will do the trick. Go to *********** and look for last months article on how to make your own filter.

You can also use a refridgerator ice making filter thats available at just about any Lowes or Home Depot.

RO is really, really low in PPMs ~ 25ppms of dissolved solids.

You can call just about any local Culligan water place. In fact they would be happy to lease one to you and tell you anything you need to know about water. Lease fees are pretty cheap.

Most likely, they won't know about your needs for brewing water. If you tell them what you need they will hook you up.

You might even be able to buy carboys from them too. I've done it in the past.

Don't mean to plug Culligan too much but I use them at work for all of my water treatment needs. UV Sanitization, DI, RO, Softening, Carbon filtration....
 
Tbh, I wouldn't worry about it unless your water is unpalatable. You could easily waste lots of time worrying about getting optimally conditioned brew water and in the end what does that mean exactly? This should not stop you from going AG. Just brew and roll with the punches. I am guessing that you can make an excellent beer sucessfully. Now if you plunge in and get poor conversion, high tannin extraction, etc then perhaps it would be a good idea to then look at your water profile. Why am I telling you all this? Because I had the same concerns. But you know what, it all turned out fine without messing with the water chemistry. What you can do, and is adviseable is to determine the best style that your water chemistry supports if you want to add a level of safety to your first AG batch.
 
According to the results I get from using this Nomograph:

http://www.howtobrew.com/images/f83.pdf

using the values you supplied for Mg, Ca, Alkalinity, the best suggested style for you to brew is the range in SRM from about 12/13 to 17/19. Hope that helps. So your Nutbrowns, Amber Ales to Brown Porter looks like the best window to start without having to make adjustments. Even so, I wouldn't be afraid to strech the bounds even strongly. I checked using both your low range and high range numbers on the water report and again, same thing Nutbrowns to Porter will be great.
 
That's all great advice. Thanks guys! And special thanks to zoebisch01 for running the numbers on my water quality (that nomograph sounds like a handy tool -- I'll have to learn it).
 
FlyGuy said:
That's all great advice. Thanks guys! And special thanks to zoebisch01 for running the numbers on my water quality (that nomograph sounds like a handy tool -- I'll have to learn it).

It is indeed handy. Keep in mind, one of the main factors in AG is the pH of the mash not the pH of the water that is important. So I wouldn't get too wrapped up in the numbers. One thing you can do, is if you find that your water isn't working for say a Pils is to search around for a spring where you can get water. Get that water checked. I am blessed to have a spring nearby where I can get naturally soft water for when I do lighter styles.
 
I've got piles of notes at home regarding a few months of water research I did specificly for an AG pilsner. If you are going down that lane, I could reference some of them for you later. There are also a few threads on this forum where I was picking the brains of some very insightfull brewers around here on this very subject. For the most part, I totally agree with zoebisch. I used a lot of the Palmer info to determine the 'ideal' types of beer that my local water can support (pales to porters.....and that's 70-80% of my brewing!) and to be honest I only plan to make small chemistry additions to the water within that range.

Pilsners, though, are kind of a different beast. Having tackled a pils in my 2nd AG brew, I would not advise against it, I would simply raise a flag to say that the pils style does require water attention. If you are the type who likes to keep thing to style, you want to replicate a pilsner type water. For me, this ended up meaning treating distilled to a Dortmund-type profile, and I adjusted my previously-planned Bohemian pilsner to a German Pils. Pilzen water is very, very, hard to replicate, even if you go over the top with the chemistry. If you want to do a pils, doctoring up distilled or RO to Dortmund is much more achievable. If I was going to stick with the Bohemian/Pilzen, I probably would have got RO and almost used it straight. Pilzen water is freakishly low in most of the minerals brewers worry about.

Overal tho, I wouldn't let the water chemistry discourage you from going all grain. If you are within the addplicable styles and colors for you local supply, brew away. As zoe says, tho, make sure you are on top of the mash pH levels....don't sweat the water too much (if you are in that local-water comfort range). Pils, tho, I say sweat the minerlas AND acidity before mash. You might find that you will be making some larger-than-expected acid modifications on-the-fly if not. :D
 
Thanks again, guys. Very sage advice. A pilsener wasn't on my list of first AG batches to do, so I will see how some browns and porters go first, then tackle something like a pils later.
 
Yeah this is one of the reasons why I have witheld on making a Pils. I have a source of what I believe is naturally soft spring water (I used some good quality test strips)...but the thing with a Pils is you are going to easily detect errors which are more easily masked in sytles that have more complex grain bills.
 
zoebisch01 said:
(I used some good quality test strips)
Do you have any input on which brands/types are better than others. I'll be honest, I bought a tube of strips from my LHBS and the entire time I was using them I was doubting their accuracy. I tested them on a number of different liquids to try to get a visual baseline for the color range but nothing left me too confident in the interpretation of their colors!!! It made me want to buy one of these!!!! :D
 
Short of any competition is there any downside of not using the exact water quality for the style? Obviously any lower body beer would make off flavors more noticable.

If your just making beer for your own pleasure does it really matter? Assuming the pH is correct for the enzyme work.

I've used wal-mart bottled spring water that's about a ph of 7 and the total dissolved solids (TDS) are less than 150ppm. My original motivation was for not boiling extract top-off water. Most of my HB pals claim my brew is very clear & crisp. I bottle lager about 2-3 months on everything.

I've always wondered the impact of the TDS on head retention. The head retention on my stuff is short lived. Any thoughts on this? What got me thinking of this is how Zest soap lathers well w/ hard water but other brands don't.

I'm not an AG'r yet, just reading & gearing up for now. I will do Dude's Pub Ale as my first AG. I've been thinking of doing a Dortmunder partial while the basement still in the 50's. I'll do my first AG when the basement hits Ale temps.

:mug:
 
You can definitely do whatever you want to do, and in fact that's exactly what I do. The thing is that if I an going to spend lots of time planning and brewing an Irish Stout, I want it to taste like an Irish Stout. The water is the #1 ingredient in the beer, volume-wise, so to me it matters a ton. The acidity is one thing, but mineral content in water goes a long way in giving regional styles of beer their detail and depth of flavor. It is not essential to use the appropriate water profile, after all, throw any water, any malt, any hops, and any yeast together and you will get beer. I just view the water as another characteristic-defining ingredient. Maybe a German Pilsner made with Burton water would be interesting. But I'd rather make the Pils with Dortmund and use the Burton for an IPA. Same way I wouldn use a Belgian yeast with a barleywine grain bill. Just my .02!!!!

What's right for me ain't necessarily right for you tho - to each his/her brewing own!!!
 
Schlenkerla said:
Short of any competition is there any downside of not using the exact water quality for the style? Obviously any lower body beer would be make off flavors more noticable.

If your just making beer for your own pleasure does it really matter? Assuming the pH is correct for the enzyme work.

...

I've always wondered the impact of the TDS on head retention. The head retention on my stuff is short lived. Any thoughts on this? What got me thinking of this is how Zest soap lathers well w/ hard water but other brands don't.


Well that is kind of 'it' in a nutshell. With the lighter styles you really need that water profile to be in line as you run the risk of getting unexpected results. Since I have rather 'purist' ideas, if I am going to shoot for a Pils, I want it to be right. Not saying you can't make a good beer otherwise, I just like to hit what I am shooting for.

....

I noticed a marked improvement in head retention from the extract batch I did in comparison with all of my AG brews. There is a reason for this, I can't recall atm what it was.
 
Fiery Sword said:
Do you have any input on which brands/types are better than others. I'll be honest, I bought a tube of strips from my LHBS and the entire time I was using them I was doubting their accuracy. I tested them on a number of different liquids to try to get a visual baseline for the color range but nothing left me too confident in the interpretation of their colors!!! It made me want to buy one of these!!!! :D


I think they were these:

http://www.aquachek.com/products.asp?n=2&l=2 for pools (one of those type I think). The nice thing is it gives the total alkalinity, and therefor you can back out the the effective hardness by just drawing a line through the pH and the Alkalinity on the Nomograph, I believe. They aren't super accurate, but the colors are fairly easy to read and it gives you a fairly good ballpark number.
 
I'm lucky that my municipal water is really soft. I can add to get the profile I need.
With your hard water it is advised that you not try a pils. If that is what you want to brew then why not just use RO water and add a few salts.
Brewing a darker style should get you in the ballpark and will give you valuable AG experience.
After all, how do you BBQ an elephant?
 
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