Automating direct fired MLT with BrewTroller

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Cuzco_Brew

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I am in the process of building a new brewing system, and I want to automate temperature control on the Mash tun. I am planning on using the BrewTroller to do this as later I would like to add further automation later.

It will be a propane system running on high pressure.

I am struggling to get my head around automating the burners. I understand I need a solenoid gas valves to control the flow of gas and that this will be controlled via relay from the BrewTroller. But after this is where I get a bit lost, some systems I have seen have pilots, others have spark ignition systems. And of course there are so many types of gas valve to choose from.

What’s the advantage of one kind of valve over the other? STC vs Asco vs Honeywell etc? I like the look of the Honeywell smart valves, can these handle high pressure?

Ideally I want to be able to light the burners with the flick of a switch on the control panel. So I assume the spark ignition systems are the way to go?

Sorry if this has been asked and answered a hundred times before, I’ve been reading through numerous build threads and keep seeing different valves being mentioned, to the point where I am more confused than when I started. :confused:

Any help would be much appreciated
Zac
 
I'm far from an expert on gas stands from brewtroller (I'm all electric)

But, as I understand it, the primary difference between a pilot system and a spark ignition system is safety. What happens if your spark doesn't light the burner? You need a thermocouple to sense heat and turn off the gas if it doesn't light.
A pilot means flame is always present for lighting the burner.
Either is doable for a flicking a switch on the panel to light.
 
Hi Zac,

I was right in the middle of your doubts some weeks ago and have found the right way to follow thanks to the excellent work Sawdustguy did in this area.

Take a look here: http://www.brewtroller.com/wiki/doku.php?id=learn:knowledge_base:burner_control

Just make a list of the items needed and wire everything as suggested and you will obtain right what you are looking for.

I'm making the same in my Herms build with two LP high pressure burners

hope this helps


gm
 
I think there was some early issues with spark ignitors and EMF or something with the BrewTroller. This may have been resolved by now; especially with the changes to I2C for the LCD and such. Just an FYI; something to look into.
 
Thanks Mr Shake, the pilot sounds the safer of those two options. So next question, what's the difference between the standing pilot light and intermittent pilot light versions?

Goingmad, I've have seen that diagram before, and thought I was home free, but reading down below it mentions that Gas Valve is for either "Natural Gas or Low Pressure Propane". Does that same model valve work with high pressure?

Cheers
Zac
 
the same valve can have the option for natural or LP gas, just using a cheap adapter from the first to the second one. Some sellers provide the valve with the adapter already installed, as I've found in mine, but I assure you the adapter is really easy to install also by yourself, since I've bought it as well. I think nothing should be changed for high pressure, as it's my case. If not, you'll soon watch an explosion coming from my property! ;)
 
The furnace valves will only work with low pressure propane or natural gas, spark ignition and dual solenoid valves are the only safe option for high pressure. If you apply more than 1/2 PSI to the furnace valves an internal safety device kicks in and the valve will not open.
 
Can you install a low pressure propane regulator between the HP reg and the low pressure pilot valve?
 
For the Brutus 3 burner setups a Marshall 290 series regulator works well, only 2 burners run at the same time, and 80K is the nominal output of the 10" burners on low pressure propane. More than about 60K fire under a 16" pot, the flames are up the sides of the pot destroying valve handles and thermometers without increasing heating. The mega output jet burners are mostly a waste of propane and time because they have to be so far away from the pot to get enough extra air to burn correctly, and turn down is very limited without the flame sooting everything up on propane.
 
So I could use a valve like this one, and a spark ignition system and that would do it? Is that safe? I've seen those valves mentioned in other threads and they do say they work for gas and high pressure.

Kevin, what do you mean by dual solenoid valves?

Thanks
Zac
 
The furnace valves will only work with low pressure propane or natural gas, spark ignition and dual solenoid valves are the only safe option for high pressure. If you apply more than 1/2 PSI to the furnace valves an internal safety device kicks in and the valve will not open.

So, Kladue, from what you are suggesting here and there with this I could convert my bg-14 burner to low pressure LP and be safe with my setup?
 
If you have the furnace valves, then all you need is a low pressure regulator and a low pressure conversion valve for each burner. The maximum fire you will get is lower than running high pressure, but many others have already gone this route successfully. One of the largest myths with burners is that bigger is better, the opposite is true after 80K btu's under a 16" pot or keg. Venting the fire correctly gives more returns than trying to shroud the burner to tightly and preventing the flow of air from under and then up through the burner to complete combustion.
 
I think there was some early issues with spark ignitors and EMF or something with the BrewTroller. This may have been resolved by now; especially with the changes to I2C for the LCD and such. Just an FYI; something to look into.

I have intermittent pilot low pressure Honeywells; spark ignition on the kettle, hot surface on the HLT.

The spark ignition is a PITA, when it arcs the Brewtroller goes nuts; random characters on the display, 1 wire sensor net shows impossible readings, sometimes the whole board freezes up and requires a power cycle.
Not to mention the need for yet another box to house the valve controller.

I've seen talk of people creating Faraday cages, shielding all their cables and all sorts of craziness that I have yet to try.

The hot surface just works, no drama. Plug 24VAC in and go. I would encourage anyone looking at going this route to save themselves the problems and go hot surface from the beginning, especially if your going to use a controller like Brewtroller or BCS.
 
OSCS sell 1-Wire Temperature Sensor with a noise suppression filter, does this filter not help overcome the issues with spark ignition systems?
 
Spark ignition does not play well with the direct connected microprocessor setups, most are not built with any noise filtering at all. Best to place them in a separate metallic enclosure away from the controller to limit the electrical noise problems they will cause with microprocessor driven devices.
 
If you absolutely, positively have to go high pressure propane, is there a safe way to automate it other than the spark ignition? Is that even safe?

Eventually what I want to be able to do is fill my mash tun and set everything up the day before brew day. Then on brew day have the brewtroller fire up the MLT on a timer. Is there a safe way to set this up with high pressure propane?
 
OSCS sell 1-Wire Temperature Sensor with a noise suppression filter, does this filter not help overcome the issues with spark ignition systems?

Hi

There's always a compromise between noise suppression and speed. You can get one or the other, but not both. The "easy" way to get both is to drop the one wire sensors and run an analog sensor like a thermistor.

(Yes I know that's not a particularly helpful reply ...)

Bob
 
I am about to convert my direct fire RIMS system over to the opentroller DX1.

I currently automate the mash with an eBay valve that is seen earlier in this thread. I also use a standing pilot and auber PID.I have been using that successfully for over a year.

Stage one of the opentroller update will be to add the solenoid and pilot to the HLT and then control both using the brewtroller set up.
 
The Brewtroller / OpenTroller can do both PID and simple on/off for temp control. I was under the impression you should use the on/off mode for a gas setup, but you are saying you can use the PID setting? Is there anything special you need to do to make a gas setup work with PID?

Thanks
Zac
 
I have not really looked into it much yet. I mentioned PID because that is what I am using now to control my temps on the mash. I will be replacing it with the opentroller. I guess it will also just be used to set a max temp, and then it is maintained by turning the solenoid on/off.
 
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