Cider fermentation temperatures

A quick question from a relative new-comer to cider brewing..some of you guys seem to go to extreme lengths keeping the cider fermentation at a controlled temperature.I keep mine at a max 24°C (75 F) for primary is that too high ? what defects could this cause and what are the best temps for primary, secondary and conditioning ?

I use Youngs cider yeast
or Safale - S04
pasteurised apple juice, with lemon juice and malic acid.


Thanks for any help.
All the best
Gordon
Italy

You wouldn't want it too much higher than that. It can cause the production of longer alcohol chains called fusel alcohols (fusel - German for 'bad alcohol'). All fermentation produces a small amount of by-products other than ethanol but most commonly in very low concentrations. They will age out/break down if you choose to wait a longer period of time than usual otherwise you'll just get one almighty hangover the next day! The best temps are roughly between 60 and 70 but each strain is different. You should have a google of your yeast and see what temperature Safale recommends. Secondaring doesn't really matter what temperature you're at, but it wouldn't be too great to too high. Most people just keep it at a constant medium to low temperature for aging (eg. in a cellar, against an earth wall etc.).

Hope this helps.

Thanks oldmate,

Ok i think I get it......wrong temperature equals fuse alcohols and possible hangovers (thought it was my age giving me more of those !)...though what about taste how does it affect the flavour of the cider..since I still have a lot of work to do on that side of things.. !

You'll usually find that it will be more 'harsh' tasting, as in drinking something which is high in % ABV. Sometimes the yeast can produce different off-tastes such as a buttery taste or a nail polish taste. Most of the time this is able to age out, but as I said before the higher you ferment at the longer you will need to age. Maybe try a small test batch at these temeperatures to see what it's like, or you can look at the threads on the first page, there's another thread already dedicated to fermenting at high temperatures. Here's the link direct to the thread https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f32/fermenting-warm-climates-256123/

Yes I'll certainly fix the temperature in a fridge I have at around 60 F next batch and see if that gives me the results I'm looking for.

Thanks for the link...in truth I did see that post just after I posted mine..Italy gets rather warm in the Summer too !....not much info on there either though about recommended temps and resulting taste.....its an area that us cider guys have some difficulty pinning down I guess. Though this forum is turning out to be one of the best sources of info that I can find so I'm not moaning !!

Gordond said:

I use Youngs cider yeast
or Safale - S04
pasteurised apple juice, with lemon juice and malic acid.

Click to expand...

Why are you adding the acid? Apple juice already has malic acid and I haven't found the need to add lemon juice.

To compensate the sweetness of the apple juice to get it (hopefully) closer to a cider apple juice which are usually more acid. I go down to a pH of 3.1 which apparently is about where it should be.
Great in theory but the taste still isn't where I want it..its still too harsh (not helped by the fact that I'm letting it go dry). Will be trying some of the things I'm learning here like pasteurization and the like to see how it goes.
Any comments are appreciated though..!

I did a batch at really high temps (80s) a few years back and it was a bit harsh. What I did to combat this was at bottling I cut it with some boiled cheap apple juice to dilute it and it was as close to Woodchuck as I have ever got. IIRC the % was 8.5 after carbonation in the bottle. Ihave never been able to replicate it.

Just a quick update..I'm completing my first test batch radically changing the temperature...what a difference...going from around 75-79 F to exactly 59 F (to see the difference going to the bottom end of the "recommended" range) the yeast has behaved totally differently.
The primary fermentation took 3 weeks instead of the usual week and the secondary another two. The taste is much better..fresh and much more what I've been looking for,.I wouldn't have believed it.

I'm not there yet but a huge step forward...thanks for the feedback HBT !

Gordond said:

[Add lemon juice & malic acid t]o compensate the sweetness of the apple juice to get it (hopefully) closer to a cider apple juice which are usually more acid.

Click to expand...

I'm just starting my 1st hard cider, so what I say here is purely hypothetical. That said...

I actually ADDED sugar (dark brown) to my recipe, not because I want the output sweeter, but because I want it dryer, and I expect the champagne yeast (which has a higher alcohol tolerance) that I'm using (Red Star Premier Blanc) to turn all that sugar -- plus the cider's original sweetness -- into alcohol.

Ask me how it came out in a couple of weeks.

You know this thread is 8 years old?

I don't understand what you're getting at. "dryer" isn't a measure of how much sugar is converted, but what percentage is converted. "Dry" is a measure of how much sugar remains, not how much you started with.

If the yeast eat from 1.045 to 1.000 or 1.070 to 1.000, the cider is equally dry. There is the same amount of sugar left over.

You know that people join forum groups every day and stumble for the first time onto old threads, right?

Yeah, you're right about "dry"; I didn't express that very well. But you seem to be agreeing with my point about "compensating for the sweetness of the apple juice", which is what I was trying to get at, anyway.

olie said:

You know that people join forum groups every day and stumble for the first time onto old threads, right?

Yeah, you're right about "dry"; I didn't express that very well. But you seem to be agreeing with my point about "compensating for the sweetness of the apple juice", which is what I was trying to get at, anyway.

Click to expand...

I learn so much from old posts!

I’m not sure if you are trying to get a cider that tastes more like apple juice or not. But in my experience you could change the yeast that you are using.

When I make cider I use D47. It will leave the cider crystal clear and finish around 1.000. The cider ends up dry and a bit tart. Both things my wife tends to like.

I recently tried a few different yeast to see what the difference was. I bought apple juice from Sams Club and separated it into 3, 1 gallon jars. I used d47, Nottingham, and Premier Cote des Blancs. The d47 was exactly what I have come to expect. The Nottingham was hazy and looked like it needed a a good cold crash. There was little yeast character and tasted more like a beer! (Will use again for a dry hopped cider) I was disappointed with the Cote des blancs. It still tasted like apple juice while finishing to 1.003 like the d47.

If you want apple juice tasting cider that has alcohol, I’d try the premier cote des blancs. I fermented all three at 68 degrees for 3 weeks in my temp controlled chest freezer.

Adding more simple sugars is usually a mistake. Doesn't matter which yeast you use, all of them can and will metabolize any and all table sugar additions; so you just end up with an even thinner-bodied cider with even less apple character. Champagne yeast is notorious for that, and it doesn't usually add any character of its own either, so I don't recommend it.
D47 on the other hand, will dry out the cider but enhances fruit character and contributes complex carbohydrates to improve mouthfeel. The result is a dry cider that tastes fruity and full. It will perform very well down to 55F.

Excellent info. It's too late for this batch (but only made a half, anyway, since we're experimenting) but, if we experience the problems listed here, we'll try the suggestions.

Thanks!