Berlinner weisse question

I am planning on putting together a Berliner weisse for this summer, and had a few quick questions about techniques for this brew... I am not planning on doing a sour mash, but rather fermenting the wort for about a week, then transferring it into a secondary with some lactobacillus to begin the souring. Since traditionally this is a no-boil type brew when doing a sour mash, is it really necessary to perform a boil with my wort?

Would it be possible/safe to simply go straight from the mash run (through my chiller) into a sanitized carboy? My thoughts are that this could make for a rather simple no sparge, no boil, quick brew day with a little mash hopping and simple lautering. Do I need to boil this brew or can I just mash, RDWHAHB, and let the beer happen?

You don't need to boil, but from my understanding you do want to bring it up close to boiling to sanitize. Also, it's fairly common to perform a decoction mash.

I'd also consider pitching lacto sooner rather than later. In fact, I'd give it a few days head start over the regular yeast.

Hmmm, I will take that into consideration. Thanks for that input!

However, one afterthought that I had, what about DMS? Should I worry about not boiling off any of the DMS by skipping the boil?

HollisBT said:

Hmmm, I will take that into consideration. Thanks for that input!

However, one afterthought that I had, what about DMS? Should I worry about not boiling off any of the DMS by skipping the boil?

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DMS is produced during the boil. It is also removed during the boil. So if you don't boil, ...

But if you're going to add your own lacto culture (which I think is a good idea) you probably should raise the temp and kill off everything. Get it above 160 for 5 minutes and you are golden.

So couldn't I theoretically do that with a mash out? If I mash out at 168 in my tun for about 15 minutes I should be good?

Also, what exactly is the mind-set behind pitching the lacto first? Just to let it establish itself? Should I pitch lacto and wait to see activity from it before pitching the yeast? And if that is the case, should I worry about oxygenation from mixing/swirling the wort once I pitch the yeast?

Also, since the yeast and bugs will be co-fermenting, do I need to worry about autoalysis (sp?) of any kind from being in the fermenter and on the trub for 5-6 months?

HollisBT said:

So couldn't I theoretically do that with a mash out? If I mash out at 168 in my tun for about 15 minutes I should be good?

Also, what exactly is the mind-set behind pitching the lacto first? Just to let it establish itself? Should I pitch lacto and wait to see activity from it before pitching the yeast? And if that is the case, should I worry about oxygenation from mixing/swirling the wort once I pitch the yeast?

Also, since the yeast and bugs will be co-fermenting, do I need to worry about autoalysis (sp?) of any kind from being in the fermenter and on the trub for 5-6 months?

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Not really. You'll notice that that graph refers to "highest concentrations found in filtered beer". Your mash has an abundance of bacteria that would require a much longer period to kill to safe levels. I'm not a microbiologist so that's about the extent of my knowledge. Good luck!

I boiled mine for 15 minutes. I also added the lacto 2 days before the sacc and it isn't sour at all now. Next time I'm going to do 3 or 4 days before the sacc.

Fritobandito said:

I boiled mine for 15 minutes. I also added the lacto 2 days before the sacc and it isn't sour at all now. Next time I'm going to do 3 or 4 days before the sacc.

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When did you brew it?

Fritobandito said:

I boiled mine for 15 minutes. I also added the lacto 2 days before the sacc and it isn't sour at all now. Next time I'm going to do 3 or 4 days before the sacc.

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I have made 2 BW batches, and this was my experience both times. I think I'm done with the style - it beat me

Is it commonly understood that a Berliner Weisse must remain in primary for multiple months? I recently listened to a Basic Brewing podcast with Michael Tonsmire, and I think his beer was in primary for at least 2 months, and in this thread I'm seeing 5-6 months. Yet in Brewing Classic Styles, Jamil makes NO mention of an extended fermentation.

What's the scoop with souring? Should I brew a Berliner Weisse now if I want to drink it in the summer?

passedpawn said:

I have made 2 BW batches, and this was my experience both times. I think I'm done with the style - it beat me

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I remember you helping me in a thread I made about mine not being sour a while ago. Don't throw in the towel yet!

HokieBrewer said:

When did you brew it?

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Probably around 4 months ago. I'm at school, so I don't have my any of my notes with me. It stopped at 1.010, so I'm probably gonna throw some brett in shortly with some maltodextrin.

I just started drinking my berliner weisse in the last week, and actually had my first commercial version yesterday.

Mine was brewed no boil, with a double decoction. I pitched a 500ml starter of lacto that I cultivated from grains, then a smack pack of Wyeast Kolsch 3 days later. I ended up with a ridiculously sour beer, WAY over the top.

Next time, I'm going to make a smaller starter of lacto and pitch it only 1 day before pitching the yeast. I still want the lacto to get a head start, but this one practically finished the race!

I left it in the primary for approximately 2 months, skimmed off the pellicle and then cold-crashed in my freezer for 3 days. If you cold-crash, expect the beer to carbonate really slow if you naturally carb. Next time, I am going to keg this beer after my cold-crash.

Fritobandito said:

I remember you helping me in a thread I made about mine not being sour a while ago. Don't throw in the towel yet!

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Thanks for the encouragement. I've got a bunch in bottles, and a single keg of it. I'll probably dump the keg, but I'll keep the bottles for a while longer - at least until summer.

Thing is, if I want a sour beer I've been very successful with flanders reds. I might as well make more of those.

tonyolympia said:

Is it commonly understood that a Berliner Weisse must remain in primary for multiple months? I recently listened to a Basic Brewing podcast with Michael Tonsmire, and I think his beer was in primary for at least 2 months, and in this thread I'm seeing 5-6 months. Yet in Brewing Classic Styles, Jamil makes NO mention of an extended fermentation.

What's the scoop with souring? Should I brew a Berliner Weisse now if I want to drink it in the summer?

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My understanding was that all bacterial work slower than yeast when it comes to eating sugars and producing their desired effects. Mi planned on giving mine several months so that I could make sure I got the effect that I wanted. I want mine to be slightly tart, but not over the top bitter, just something that will be light and refreshing on a summers day. I am planning on brewing mine either this month or early February so that it will be ready to drink by July.

I also plan on doing the same with a Saison that I want to pitch Brett and pedio on.

tonyolympia said:

Is it commonly understood that a Berliner Weisse must remain in primary for multiple months? I recently listened to a Basic Brewing podcast with Michael Tonsmire, and I think his beer was in primary for at least 2 months, and in this thread I'm seeing 5-6 months. Yet in Brewing Classic Styles, Jamil makes NO mention of an extended fermentation.

What's the scoop with souring? Should I brew a Berliner Weisse now if I want to drink it in the summer?

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Kristen England (eminent brewer) recommends just the opposite. He gets his BW into bottles within 7 days of brewing. He adds more lacto when he bottles. Then he puts the bottles away in a hot place (say, garage) for many months. He says he gets lots of sour this way.

I did it like this on my last batch (I didn't add more lacto, didn't see the point) and had the same result as when I fermented for 5 months in carboy. Oh well. One interesting thing on the 1st batch: I never got a pellicle in the carboy, but within 2 days the bottles formed pellicles in the neck.

passedpawn said:

Kristen England (eminent brewer) recommends just the opposite. He gets his BW into bottles within 7 days of brewing. He adds more lacto when he bottles. Then he puts the bottles away in a hot place (say, garage) for many months. He says he gets lots of sour this way.

I did it like this on my last batch (I didn't add more lacto, didn't see the point) and had the same result as when I fermented for 5 months in carboy. Oh well. One interesting thing on the 1st batch: I never got a pellicle in the carboy, but within 2 days the bottles formed pellicles in the neck.

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So why don't you have worry about bottle-bombs when you do this — does lacto never produce CO2, just acid? Making the Brett the major difference (and bottle-bomb causer) between this and other sours?

So what exactly is the purpose of the decoction in the mash with this style?

Also, if pitching the lacto first do you wait to see activity before adding the saccharomyces? Do you have to worry about pellicle formation and oxidation?

othellomcbane said:

So why don't you have worry about bottle-bombs when you do this — does lacto never produce CO2, just acid? Making the Brett the major difference (and bottle-bomb causer) between this and other sours?

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Good question. You do have to worry about bombs. Lacto is not homofermentive (I think that's the right term), so it does produce CO2.

I don't have a good answer for you. It's a small beer, so it's really done fermenting quickly. I put lacto in there and the beer raged just like an active sacc fermentation.

I've had success with a 15 min boil onto a lacto starter (made with apple juice) and held at 90F for 24 hrs, let it drop to 68F, transfer and pitch a clean yeast AND some Brett and ferment for at least three months. Sour and tasty at that point. Might want to try it that way.

How necessary is it to hold it at 90 degrees? And what did you use to keep that temperature for 24 hours?

I think that keeping it at a higher temp is crucial for the lacto. I cooled the beer down to 100 and then used a fermawrap inside of a fermentation chamber. If you don't have that, you could always use a heating pad.

I once tried to keep it at 90F for two days. That beer was way too sour and I had to back sweeten it in the keg.

I kept mine just under 90 using a tub of water with an aquarium heater in it. I'd recently broken my 150w heater and my 75w one couldn't get it to 90. I still experienced what weremichael did. I've been drinking mine mixed with various syrups to cut the acidity.

So then maybe if I just wanting slightly tart, keeping it at those temps isn't as important?

weremichael said:

I think that keeping it at a higher temp is crucial for the lacto. I cooled the beer down to 100 and then used a fermawrap inside of a fermentation chamber. If you don't have that, you could always use a heating pad.

I once tried to keep it at 90F for two days. That beer was way too sour and I had to back sweeten it in the keg.

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Airborneguy said:

I kept mine just under 90 using a tub of water with an aquarium heater in it. I'd recently broken my 150w heater and my 75w one couldn't get it to 90. I still experienced what weremichael did. I've been drinking mine mixed with various syrups to cut the acidity.

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Were these sour mashes (where you boiled afterward to kill the lacto) or did you pitch pure lacto for a few days and then pitch a regular strain on top of that and let it ferment out?

Airborneguy said:

I just started drinking my berliner weisse in the last week, and actually had my first commercial version yesterday.

Mine was brewed no boil, with a double decoction. I pitched a 500ml starter of lacto that I cultivated from grains, then a smack pack of Wyeast Kolsch 3 days later. I ended up with a ridiculously sour beer, WAY over the top.

Next time, I'm going to make a smaller starter of lacto and pitch it only 1 day before pitching the yeast. I still want the lacto to get a head start, but this one practically finished the race!

I left it in the primary for approximately 2 months, skimmed off the pellicle and then cold-crashed in my freezer for 3 days. If you cold-crash, expect the beer to carbonate really slow if you naturally carb. Next time, I am going to keg this beer after my cold-crash.

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Here's my whole process (prior post).

I would suggest using lactobacillus brevis instead of delbrueckii, or doing the sour starter method. The Delbrueckii strains are notorious for being very slow to sour and tend to be extremely sensitive to even very low levels of hopping.

Subscribed. I was just about to ask at least 3 of these questions.

ArcaneXor said:

I would suggest using lactobacillus brevis instead of delbrueckii, or doing the sour starter method. The Delbrueckii strains are notorious for being very slow to sour and tend to be extremely sensitive to even very low levels of hopping.

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What exactly are the differences between the strains? Do they produce any different flavor/aroma characteristics? I have the same question about Brett, and have yet to find a solid resource to explain it.

I'm fairly sure that some of the lacto strains do not produce any alcohol at all.

HollisBT said:

What exactly are the differences between the strains? Do they produce any different flavor/aroma characteristics? I have the same question about Brett, and have yet to find a solid resource to explain it.

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Brevis is more hop resistant and tends to sour more (and it produces ethanol). I believe Cascade uses Brevis for their sour beers.

Registered to thank you guys for this discussion. I brewed a BW last October having no idea what it tasted like, just wanted a light sour ale. I followed the Brewing Classic Styles recipe and used Wyeast lacto and Safale US-05. I bottled 2 weeks after brewing, which was a simple stovetop BIAB (my first all grain, on top of first sour).

I wish I'd waited longer for the lacto to develop sourness before drinking, the first two months it was just a funky tasting wheat beer. Right now it's tart without being super sour and I've bought some syrups, but I don't have much left.

I did get a chance to try a few commercial examples, since it's apparently becoming a popular style with craft brewers, and I really dig Bear Republic's version. I want to do this again as just a sour mash, single decoction, and see if I can get more of a sour character without adding lacto. I'll also try a few of the things I read here. Thanks again.

ArcaneXor said:

I would suggest using lactobacillus brevis instead of delbrueckii, or doing the sour starter method. The Delbrueckii strains are notorious for being very slow to sour and tend to be extremely sensitive to even very low levels of hopping.

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Where can I get a culture of lactobacillus brevis, are there commercial suppliers?

I found a lot of info on BW here Berliner Weisse - Home Brewing Wiki and they also state using L. Brevis but say its hard to find.

coldrain said:

Where can I get a culture of lactobacillus brevis, are there commercial suppliers?

I found a lot of info on BW here Berliner Weisse - Home Brewing Wiki and they also state using L. Brevis but say its hard to find.

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I think you pretty much have to harvest it from a bottle.

Hey everyone, I am preparing to brew this beer, and had a few more questions that I wanted to toss out there. I have changed directions and have decided to sour mash instead of adding lacto into the fermenter.

I was wondering what everyone's thoughts were regarding the souring process. I have 1 pound of mystery grains (they came in a kit that was never used, and I have them sitting in a bowl collecting some local organisms as we speak) that I had been planning on dumping into the unboiled wort to help sour. Should this be sufficient for getting the lacto going? Or should I plan on pitching some lacto from a smack pack?

I plan on fermenting the beer with a kölsch yeast after souring and doing a quick 15 minute boil. After fermentation is complete, will it be safe to wash and re-use this yeast? My logic tells me yes, but I just want someone to confirm that before I go tainting future batches.

To those thinking of culturing lacto from grains, I have successfully done it. I outlined it here.

Basically, I created 500ml of a 1.030ish wort, and added in 1/2 c. of grains. I let it sit for a few days. By the smell of it I think it developed a little enterobacteria (or maybe lactobacillus just makes that smell), but then it started to ferment with an ‘unknown’ yeast – Either wild from the grains, or cultured from the ‘terroir’ of my kitchen (brewers, bakers, …?).

Nevertheless, I got good results from pitching about 250ml of starter into 2.5 gallons of wort and letting it sour before adding S-05 after 48 hours (it may have been 24… I should take better notes).

My recipe was around 1.035 and involved about 60-40 Pale 2-Row/Malted Wheat. I doughed in at about 1.5 qts/lb. for a protein rest at 125-130F for 20 minutes. I pulled a decoction to raise it to 148F rest for 60 minutes, then pulled a second decoction to raise the mash to mashout at 168F for 20 minutes. I threw in .75oz Hallertau with the second decoction and boiled for 10 minutes. Then I did a "sparge" à la the stove-top brewing, and brought to a boil to sanitize the immersion chiller.

Nevertheless, it sat in the carboy for 4 months before I got a sample. Clear, and refreshingly tart! I haven’t bottled it yet.

As for culturing lacto you have a few more options:

1. Buy a bottle of ‘Acidophilus’ from your drug store. It’s just L. acidophilus and will sour your beer without any trouble.
2. Make a starter from the ‘whey’ which forms on top of yogurt (like Stoneyfield, or Brown Cow). Stoneyfield has a number of lacto cultures such as L. bulgaricus, L. acidophilus, L. casei, and L. rhamnosus. If you make a starter, you can probably minimize the effect of the other things in the ‘whey’
3. Buy a yogurt ‘culture’ from a cheese making store. The commercial yogurt culture has L. delbrueckii which is common in brewing. However, it does have ‘milk’ and lactose’ in the culture…

As for bulk aging…I don’t think it’s necessary, but it may be fun if you culture a starter from grains. You might get something more than straight-up lacto and it could develop a pellicle and change flavors over time. I split my batch between pure culture (with the wild yeast) and culture and S-05. The pure culture batch has a pellicle and I haven’t tried it. I hope to the next time I brew (Thursday?). If it’s really good, I’ll bottle it by itself, if just pretty good, I might try blending it. If it’s terrible, I may toss it, or…bottle it for kicks.

Hopefully that helps. I don’t have a whole lot of experience. Given more time, I might try the Acidophilus method, and the yogurt method.

I do plan on racking a bigger (1.060) beer onto the yeast cake of my current BW….just to give it a shot. If they pure culture is very good, I’ll do the same for that… I’m just trying to decide if I want to do a light beer (still 60/40 barley/wheat) or one with some melanoidins.

Also, Ian assuming that it is safe to taste it throughout the souring process? Again, logic tells me it is ok and would be no different than the bacteria in yogurt and cheese, but while it sours I can taste it to make sure it isn't getting too sour, without fear of getting sick, right?

Hollis- You should be correct. I'm confident that you should fear getting sick as long as it doesn't taste bad. Especially after a day or two, the pH will drop to safe levels.

There really isn't anything in beer that can make you sick.

A word of warning to people. I just had a Berlinerweisse go south, and it's going to be a whole batch down the drain. I did the same thing as storunner, and had GREAT results. Unfortunately I used foil on my carboy rather than an airlock, and oxygen got in and turned everything to ethyl acetate. Nail Polish remover!

Mike T. suggested that you use airlocks or solid bungs for all sours to minimize the risk of oxygen exposure.

Funny enough, the Gose I did from the same batch is totally fine, but I did use an airlock.

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