Beer line tests & solution to the "plastic" taste

kal said:

Yup. I had the same issue. 500' would last me longer than I'd ever care to imagine.

Another option is to call up some of the local places that do beer installation setups. They'll often give you scraps for free. You don't necessarily need the exact brand I mention: As long as it's poly tubing with some sort of glass-like lining meant for beverage you're all set.

Kal

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Very good point. I did actually see 18' of bundled tubing on sale on ebay for like 40 bucks, unfortunately it was 9 3/8" lines, no 1/4" lines. I'll keep you all up to date on how my tubing works out. I'm doing about 13-15' runs up to my kitchen to have taps up there. I think I was getting oxidation using 10' of LLDPE tubing, PET is a much better barrier.

Bump................

I was hoping to hear where people ended up with thier tubing solutions?
Conpewter, Diablotastic, noisy123?
Has anyone had luck with the tygon - if so were you using the chem resistant or the Ultra? Any good US sources for the Bev-seal?

I also wanted to ask opinions about gas lines. I am using the standard red pvc lines. I actually pbw and star san'd them initially. I have a new 2 keg set up with about 1 keg thru each side and don't remember checking them for any odor/taste. I just bought some additional red line and WOW - the stuff reeks - taking a suck off the end of that is nasty - pure rubber. I can't believe that something that strong would not impart some of that flavor to the beer. I'll check the new line after an overnight soak, but I am now thinking of also changing out my gas lines. I know this sounds like overkill - way overboard, but I need to get rid of the rubber taste. Maybe the bevlex would be OK for gas?

thanks
jason

I have the red rubber gas lines too (BevLex 204 by Kuriyama) and have always used them. Your beer doesn't pass through them so no issues. The gas doesn't pick up any flavour on the way through.

As the original author of this thread, believe me, if there was any off-taste due to the gas lines I would have replaced them a long time ago too...

Kal

Kal, I'm still curious.
First I'm not sure if my new gas line is bevlex. It is just stamped with keg connection PVC, so I may have more of a problem.
So today, even after an overnight soak in pbw then starsan, there is still a pronounced rubber "taste" if I breathe in through this tube. My thinking is if air passing through this tube can pick up a noticable flavor, why wouldn't the CO2 also be able to do this. If the Co2 is able to pick up the 'off flavor' and is then diffused and retained within a liquid (beer), wouldn't the molecules (?pvc off-gassing?) responsible for the "taste" also be suspended within the beer and able to impart some flavor? (i.e. would farting in the bathtub make the bathwater taste bad?)
I know this is a complex issue. It has been a while since I had to look at gas difusion physics/chemisty. I also realize that a lot goes into the perception of taste and I really may be working a problem that doesn't exist. I only started thinking about it again since this piece of hose really had quite a noticable odor.

I am still looking to hear what others ended up with for thier beverage lines as I am sure this is an actual problem for some.
Thanks all (especially kal),
Jason

jwright said:

Kal, I'm still curious.
First I'm not sure if my new gas line is bevlex. It is just stamped with keg connection PVC, so I may have more of a problem.
So today, even after an overnight soak in pbw then starsan, there is still a pronounced rubber "taste" if I breathe in through this tube. My thinking is if air passing through this tube can pick up a noticable flavor, why wouldn't the CO2 also be able to do this.

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That's a good question! All I can say is that I don't notice any plastic off-flavours and I'm really fussy about it (most people and other brewers think I'm absolutely nuts for the amount of work I put into this).

Let me know what you find out though - if you do end up doing tests with different gas lines make sure to post your findings back here. Gas line's cheap. I'll replace mine if it makes a difference.

Kal

Kal, I want to thank for this thread, I am very happy with my current keggerator and a lot of it has to do with this thread convincing me not go cheap on the beer line.
I got a high quality line and I now enjoy being able to pour a half pint from an unused line and drink it with no off taste that I can notice. Was it worth spending a few (or more) pennies per foot. YES.
I have enough replacement lines to last me a many years and I clean the lines out every three months or so, and still there is no problems at all.

I bought "Tygon® Food, Milk, & Dairy Tubing B-44-4X" from McMaster-Carr and I've been very happy with it. I don't perceive off tastes, even when drawing 2-4oz of a pale ale. The one thing I noticed with this is that I think there is substantially less ID resistance. I have 10' per tap, and 12psi was pretty strong, and seems to overproduce the head a bit. US Plastics sells it at this link. Though, they appear to be out of stock at the moment.

It also remains very supple, even when the kegerator is set to 45*. I just do a quick rinse with PBW, Water, then StarSan before hooking them up. I don't believe I bought anything super fancy for gas line, just decent quality line from MMC.

Glad you're happy guys!

Some comments:

- The barrier tubing has a glass-like lining in it so you'll find that you probably don't have to clean the lines as often. The stuff (beerstone) doesn't really accumulate. In fact, I don't have any after 2 years! I flush the lines once a year with hot oxyclean but it doesn't even seem to be needed.

- Line resistance is also reduced. That glass-like lining lets you set your regulator at a much lower setting and still get a good pour rate. An extra bonus for me when it comes to balancing the lines as I tend to like my beers on the lower end of carbination so I don't need to use much line.

Kal

I haven't had mine hooked up long enough to tell anything about beerstone yet, but I'm starting to suspect that the Tygon is more or less a different brand with the same properties as Bevlex.

I don't recall if I posted this or not, but I chatted with a guy on a different forum (Warcraft based), and he works at a plant for "the biggest brewing company". He said they're permitted to use Stainless Steel, or that model of Tygon. I may not like their product, but given the consistency they shoot for, and the alternative product, the Tygon seemed like a good choice.

Thanks to everyone who has chimed in.
Kauai - What line are you using that is working out so well?
Jason

jwright said:

I was hoping to hear where people ended up with thier tubing solutions?
Conpewter, Diablotastic, noisy123?
Has anyone had luck with the tygon - if so were you using the chem resistant or the Ultra? Any good US sources for the Bev-seal?

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I went with the Bev-Seal. I called locally, the US manufacturer (Accuflex) and a list of US distributors they gave me. In the end I took the plunge and ordered the minimum 500' of it.

Why? When my through the wall setup is done, access to the back of the shanks will be a major effort. It's worth making sure I do it right the first time. I'll have a ton of tube left over, and am planning to offer cut lengths to anyone at my cost (about $0.25/ft plus shipping) and hopefully eventually I'll have just paid a good price on what I need.

Huge thanks to Kal for his great posts. I started researching what to buy last weekend, found HBT through one of his posts and learned a ton. I'm definitely at the starting stages- this is my first setup, first HBT post, and I just ordered everything yesterday. Also thanks to everyone else in the thread, especially jwright, you have me curious about my air hose, but at least I'll be able to access that if I need to replace.

spotter said:

I went with the Bev-Seal. I called locally, the US manufacturer (Accuflex) and a list of US distributors they gave me. In the end I took the plunge and ordered the minimum 500' of it.

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If spotter or anyone else is willing to sell 10-50 feet of Bev-Seal (3/16" would be nice but I guess it only comes in 1/4"), I'd gladly pay the cost per foot plus shipping plus $20 for your trouble. I can't believe any home brew stores carry it. They all say that the line they sell is tasteless and odorless, but if you let it sit a few days I'm convinced they all will leave a bad taste. My line from kegconnection gives a bad taste after only a few hours, and supposedly it is bevlex which is supposed to be good.

Has anyone purchased from this company? The two prices they have posted are surely not for a 500' spool, even though it seems to imply they are.

My setup is up and running. A bit over 20' of tubing, about 12 outside the fridge. Copper tubing with a pond pump in a glycol reservoir to keep the lines outside the fridge cool.

With the beer at 38 degrees, a rise of just over 2 feet, and 11-12 PSI the system seems pretty well balanced. That means the resistance per foot is in the .40 to .45 PSI range. As expected, no sign of taint.

Plenty of kinks to work out, the first pour is wild, everything after that is great. I'm pretty sure the beer in the lines is getting too warm. There's some insulation improvements I can make near the last foot, but I think I'm going to move the pump into a freezer area and see how that goes first.

piperbrew said:

Has anyone purchased from this company? The two prices they have posted are surely not for a 500' spool, even though it seems to imply they are.

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Options:
That's not where mine came from, but you can always call them- I actually ordered 500' of 6 bundled 3/8 lines (4 beer 2 glycol) for about $30 total from someplace. Then I realized it was 3/8, which meant I'd need all 500' to balance anything

I was just re-reading the thread, I missed back on page 8 where Better Bottle was selling cut lengths for 0.49/foot.

I'm selling off my extra @ 0.25/foot. I've not shipped over 60 feet, but the shipping is generally around $10.

kal said:

As for it being in my head, I had a few other people (brewers and non-brewers) taste water samples without telling them which hose they came from, nor did I mention what the off-taste tasted like. I had them rate them and most people rated the order the same as me, and noticed what they called a 'plastic' or 'rubber band' or 'rubber boot' taste. If you don't notice it yourself, good for you! Enough others have posted recent threads on the subject that I don't think I'm alone.

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this is a very informative post, and I really can appreciate all the time and effort you put into testing this, and I wish more people did it (myself included).

That said, not to be rude, but reading this section stuck out to me, mostly because I'm very rationally-minded. I apologize if this was already addressed (10-page post), but the section I bolded in the quote seemed very unscientific to me. In my eyes, to get a truly objective opinion, you must perform a double-blind test in order to receive the most accurate of results. In other words, ensure when you have others taste-testing, they cannot know that they are looking for any off-flavors at all. One way I can think of to do this would be a tasting survey, like so:

1. Rate the level of apricot taste from 1-10.
2. Rate the level of acidic taste from 1-10.
3. Rate the level of plastic taste from 1-10.

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I'm not too keen on how a 'tasting' survey would go, and you've certainly done enough already, just wanted to throw my 2 cents in. What a great experiment, cheers!

kal....thanks for such an informative post...this has really got my gears turning since I am going to be running (6) 35 ft lines to my bar...still not sure the route I will be taking...might but pre-bundled or try to make some, but got my head thinking.

Spotter...may PM you about your extra at some point...sure wish that bundle was an 6 line/2 glycol haha...would have saved me quite a bit haha.

ridd said:

this is a very informative post, and I really can appreciate all the time and effort you put into testing this, and I wish more people did it (myself included).

That said, not to be rude, but reading this section stuck out to me, mostly because I'm very rationally-minded. I apologize if this was already addressed (10-page post), but the section I bolded in the quote seemed very unscientific to me. In my eyes, to get a truly objective opinion, you must perform a double-blind test in order to receive the most accurate of results. In other words, ensure when you have others taste-testing, they cannot know that they are looking for any off-flavors at all. One way I can think of to do this would be a tasting survey, like so:



I'm not too keen on how a 'tasting' survey would go, and you've certainly done enough already, just wanted to throw my 2 cents in. What a great experiment, cheers!

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I don't remember the exact details but I could have sworn I simply had people taste the various water samples and tell me what they thought. They did however know that I was "rating" hoses so they probably guessed.

Yes, a double blind test would have been better but the important thing here is that everyone rated the hoses all the same way as me (from best to worst). I wasn't looking for anything truly scientific but just wanted to verify that it wasn't just me tasking something odd. Unscientific yes, but I wasn't trying for something that I could publish in Scientific American.

Kal

most flexible hose has plasticizers in it that allow the plastic used to be flexible. often these plasticizers are somewhat volatile and leach out of the plastic. I can't imagine they are good for you, and they smell and taste bad. Bisphenol-A is something people have been hot and bothered about for a while, and it is supposed to have been in many plastic water bottles. I don't know what plasticizers are normally used for PVC, but the cheaper PVC from china, such as the air hoses you get with a cheap air compressor often reek for years. I usually dispose of these, as I would with any PVC hose that gave off smells and tastes that you would use for food and beer.

McMaster-Carr seems to have a lot of good info on the materials they sell, and for the speedy delivery times and the fact that you can return anything no questions asked, makes them my favorite place to get this stuff. not always the cheapest, but they have EVERYTHING.

Edit** made mistake, bisphenol A is not a plasticizer... the stuff that makes the stink and off tastes in PVC and some other tubing are Phthalates. **

Has anyone used the Bev Seal Ultra 235 (1/4" ID) with the epoxy mixers from this thread? https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/cure-your-short-hose-troubles-100151/ This is the lined tubing that Kal says is the best but with 1/4" inner diameter.

Tubing:
http://kuriyama.thomasnet.com/viewi...-174-series-235-tubing?&plpver=1001&forward=1

I would like to buy the best tubing but I don't want 8000 feet of it in the keezer. I realize I could do like Kal mentioned and run at a lower pressure but I don't want the lower carb level. Should I just use 3/16" poly tubing? Confused as to what my best solution is.....

Just wanted to point out that the company that sells bev-seal ultra 235 also has an American based company/location. The company name is different but the website is almost identical.
American Location:
http://kuriyama.thomasnet.com/viewi...-174-series-235-tubing?&plpver=1004&forward=1
Canadian Location:
http://kuriyama.thomasnet.com/viewi...-174-series-235-tubing?&plpver=1001&forward=1

I'll try calling them soon to see how much they sell the ultra 235 and I'll post back here when I find out.

Hey I just signed up so that I can post here and hopefully help out. I've had a similar problem over the last 3 years:

http://www.micromatic.com/forum/us-...y-home/6516-another-plastic-taste-thread.html

I recently bought 50' of Tygon B-44-4x after reading a post on another homebrew forum where a user said he switched to this and problem solved, most likely the same stuff as the BevSeal. The difference though is that I was able to order this stuff in 3/16 ID and 5/16 OD from usplastic.com. I had a bad plastic taste problem and after a lot of reading online, I installed 5' of this on Thursday. The plastic taste was gone completely, even on the first pour the morning after. But I now had a problem with it pouring too fast. Per a suggestion on the above forum link I changed it to 7' of line yesterday and it is now perfect. The taste is great, I am not wasting any beer and it pours perfect. So for anyone looking to keep the 3/16" ID I highly recommend this line.
Chris

Check out www.betterbottle.com they sold me Bev-Seal tubing (1/4" ID) at a really good price and I could order as much or as little as I wanted.

conpewter said:

Check out www.betterbottle.com they sold me Bev-Seal tubing (1/4" ID) at a really good price and I could order as much or as little as I wanted.

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Thanks for the info. Do you remember how much it costs per foot? Also how were you able to balance your lines, super long beer line, low serving/carb pressure or by inserting flow restrictors such as the epoxy mixers?

Scut_Monkey said:

Thanks for the info. Do you remember how much it costs per foot? Also how were you able to balance your lines, super long beer line, low serving/carb pressure or by inserting flow restrictors such as the epoxy mixers?

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I bought the tubing in the spring. 45 cents a foot, got 80 feet for $41 shipped. I don't have the other info yet as I've had too many other projects to actually get my new taps up and running. I plan to be dispensing from the kitchen (first floor) and the fridge is in the basement. From what I can find the height difference should help with the balancing (plus the ~ 15 ft of tubing). If not I have the epoxy inserts to try instead.

conpewter said:

I bought the tubing in the spring. 45 cents a foot, got 80 feet for $41 shipped. I don't have the other info yet as I've had too many other projects to actually get my new taps up and running. I plan to be dispensing from the kitchen (first floor) and the fridge is in the basement. From what I can find the height difference should help with the balancing (plus the ~ 15 ft of tubing). If not I have the epoxy inserts to try instead.

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I want to get the best line but I don't have any experience with balancing the system so I would have no idea how much I need per tap. I'm thinking I'll get some basic poly tubing at Home Depot for cheap and see if I'm happy with the results on one tap. If it works for me I'll use it for the others.

Has anyone determined whether certain chemicals, or certain minerals in water (maybe chlorine) bring out this plastic taint in vinyl & poly beerlines? Mine turns absolutely horrible after only being left in the line for less than 5 minutes. I've even tested brand new vinyl tube with tap water and it taints it to the point it is not drinkable.

It's probably the vinyl. Get some lined tubing like Tygon Beverage and Dairy, or the Bevseal. Vinyl/plastics release a lot of nasty chemicals as they age, and lined tubing puts an inert barrier between that and your beer/water.

JesseRC said:

I checked out that line and it says its not to be used on Ice makers and its not to be used where constant pressure will be applied.

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I've been using that stuff with an RO/DI unit for a couple of years, and its exposed to house pressure (60+ PSI). I doubt 5-12PSI is going to cause an issue.

Hotspur said:

It's probably the vinyl. Get some lined tubing like Tygon Beverage and Dairy, or the Bevseal. Vinyl/plastics release a lot of nasty chemicals as they age, and lined tubing puts an inert barrier between that and your beer/water.

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No I'm pretty sure something else is causing it. Used about 5 types of beerline recently, and the same problem from new. Something is in the beer is reacting with the line after a few minutes. The few ounces of beer from the line looks cloudy, dull in colour and foams more. When the fresh stuff comes through it is ok, but not perfect as it passes through the line.

Its got me beat!? Is there a compound that could be in my beer that could cause this? I'm very strict with santitation. Maybe a PH thing? I do use a small percentage of acid malt in my beers to deal with alkaline water.

Were all five types of beer line vinyl, or were any of them actual FDA (or it's AU counterpart) approved beverage line? The Tygon stuff I bought is lined and completely inert - the beer doesn't change after sitting in the line for an extended period of time. I have some cheap tubing that I use for blowoff and whatnot, and it goes from clear to opaque if it sits in StarSan too long (ie, one day). I've left the Tygon lines full of StarSan for a week and it doesn't discolor at all.

That's why I suggested better lines. It may very well be the chemical makeup of the beer, but it's easier (and healthier, imo) to change the lines to something inert, rather than trying completely redo your beer.

Just an update on my situation. I found a very badly pitted poppet on the keg. Also some corrosion on the inside of the post itself! Think this is my real problem. Wonder if this is what some other people are experiencing when it seems like very severe line tainting and only occurs on first pour?

i ordered 100' of the 1/4" bev-seal tubing from better bottle but it is just _slightly_ too large for the shanks i have. (stainless elbows 4329AS-3E from micromatic)

any suggestions ?

Has anyone tried this PET tubing from McMaster yet? Any objections to me ordering a 25 foot section of this to try?

Here is the part number on mcmaster.com, for some reason their website doesn't link directly very well.

Part # 5384K691

How about Tygon formulated PVC such as this?

http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=23279&clickid=redirect

I tried the Mcmaster part 5384K691 but it was too small to fit the shank. I returned it and then ordered the bev-seal tubing as described above.

Still looking for a solution.....

hukdizzle said:

Has anyone tried this PET tubing from McMaster yet? Any objections to me ordering a 25 foot section of this to try?

Here is the part number on mcmaster.com, for some reason their website doesn't link directly very well.

Part # 5384K691

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Not an ideal solution for beer line. That stuff is pretty stiff and they do warn you that it will crack with continued flexing. I have some similar tubing I bought for another project and would not consider using it for my keezer set up.

hukdizzle said:

Part # 5384K691

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I believe that's the same stiff polyethylene tubing you can purchase at Lowes/Home Depot.

I would really like to stay with a 3/16" solution to keep the hose clutter to a minimum in my keezer but if I have to go with 1/4" it's not that big of a deal I suppose. Did you order your tubing directly from Better Bottle? Do you know if they would sell it in a 50' section?

eeebigeee said:

i ordered 100' of the 1/4" bev-seal tubing from better bottle but it is just _slightly_ too large for the shanks i have. (stainless elbows 4329AS-3E from micromatic)

any suggestions ?

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Actually if you're looking to get rid of that tubing I would probably take it off your hands as long as it would crimp down fine on a barbed ball lock. I have 1/4" SS tail pieces on my shanks so it shouldn't be an issue on that end.