White Rajah Clone

rjschroed said:

WLP001 and 1056 are the same yeast and for sure what I would go with.

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Yeah, I prefer using the smack pack for some unknown reason, but I've used both before.

rjschroed said:

Summit, as I recall, is sort of a strange little hop that isn't used too often. Or at least if it is, it isn't publicized like some other hops. I don't know that cascade is a reasonable substitution but who knows if you even notice it in such small proportions.

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I looked up the sub chart on Brew365 (also same one at my store, Listermanns) and decided to go with Cascade. I did have the choice to use Amarillo, because the brew store had just gotten their shipment of it for the month (they only get 20 oz / month) and I bought as much as they limit customers to (3 per). As you said, in such small proportions I don't think you'd notice a huge difference, which is why I'm saving the Amarillo for a recipe that will feature it.

Finally, some details:

OG: 1.065
Vol: ~ 5.75 - 6 gallons
Pitched yeast @ 77°

Fermentation began about 24 hours after. It's now going full speed, have a nice krausen this morning!

Jeffries55 said:

I looked up the sub chart on Brew365 (also same one at my store, Listermanns) and decided to go with Cascade. I did have the choice to use Amarillo, because the brew store had just gotten their shipment of it for the month (they only get 20 oz / month) and I bought as much as they limit customers to (3 per). As you said, in such small proportions I don't think you'd notice a huge difference, which is why I'm saving the Amarillo for a recipe that will feature it.

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2 questions.

1) what supplier does your LHBS use for Amarillo? Mine uses Hop Union and has been out for some time. The other ones have a poor quality hop

2) Summit has a "dank" quality that cascade lacks. You may want to blend with some high quality CTZ or Apollo hops to fill this one out.

brewski09 said:

1) what supplier does your LHBS use for Amarillo? Mine uses Hop Union and has been out for some time. The other ones have a poor quality hop

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I'll check when I get home, I know it's not Hop Union, it's a gold nitro sealed packet with a black/red label.

brewski09 said:

2) Summit has a "dank" quality that cascade lacks. You may want to blend with some high quality CTZ or Apollo hops to fill this one out.

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Well, since I have 2-3 days until I can dry-hop, what should I use instead of Cascade (remember, it's only 5 grams / .17 oz). The three hops I have that I think would work:

• Columbus (Received these in March when I bought my Mash Tun from someone on here)
• Zeus (Received these in March when I bought my Mash Tun from someone on here)
• Amarillo (Bought this weekend)
• Cascade (Bought this weekend)

Do you think I should up the usage in the dry-hop? I had the option to buy Galaxy hops but I didn't :/

Jeffries55 said:

I'll check when I get home, I know it's not Hop Union, it's a gold nitro sealed packet with a black/red label.

Well, since I have 2-3 days until I can dry-hop, what should I use instead of Cascade (remember, it's only 5 grams / .17 oz). The three hops I have that I think would work:


[*]Columbus (Received these in March when I bought my Mash Tun from someone on here)
[*]Zeus (Received these in March when I bought my Mash Tun from someone on here)
[*]Amarillo (Bought this weekend)
[*]Cascade (Bought this weekend)


Do you think I should up the usage in the dry-hop? I had the option to buy Galaxy hops but I didn't :/

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5g is a very small amount in the whole scheme of things. I do about a half ounce per 5 gallons I I want to notice something. The Columbus and Zeus are the same thing from different suppliers (CTZ=Columbus/Tomahawk/Zeus). I would think doing 5g each of the cascade and either the Columbus or Zeus (whichever has a more pungent aroma) would be fine here. The Amarillo are beautiful in dry hops, but not right to clone this beer.

I picked up some galaxy the other day. Going to do a single hop pale ale with them to see how they fare. Should be tasty.

Just my thoughts.

small amounts like this is what you run into when your doing clone recipes. . . at the brewery they are using a more reasonable amount since their system is so much larger. the hop amounts were based on a ratio we were clued into earlier on. when I designed the recipe, I designed it at full scale ( at the time I looked up tbk's brew house size) and then I scaled it down to our size and tweaked a little. I'd use the Columbus or Zeus. just pick one, such a small amount will be hard to notice. just make sure they don't smell cheesy. . . that's no good.

Try Yakimahops.com ....they have everything.....I don't work for him, but buy from him often.

brewski09 said:

What supplier does your LHBS use for Amarillo?

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BSG Handcraft... is this the one you're talking about being poor?

Jeffries55 said:

BSG Handcraft... is this the one you're talking about being poor?

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Nope. I'll see if my LHBS can get any in. I would bet they had to sign a contract and didn't do it though

With all that said in the last few posts, I will stick with the original plan for the dry hop:

1.00 oz Citra
0.50 oz Centennial
0.33 oz Nelson Sauvin
0.17 oz Cascade [5g]
0.17 oz Columbus [5g]

I've typically dry-hopped in the primary before transferring to a seconday, but think I'm going to rack to secondary, dry hop for 7 days and then rack to another bucket for conditioning (4-7 days). Anyone else do this / see significant results in flavor/aroma/clarity?

Jeffries55 said:

With all that said in the last few posts, I will stick with the original plan for the dry hop:

1.00 oz Citra
0.50 oz Centennial
0.33 oz Nelson Sauvin
0.17 oz Cascade [5g]
0.17 oz Columbus [5g]

I've typically dry-hopped in the primary before transferring to a seconday, but think I'm going to rack to secondary, dry hop for 7 days and then rack to another bucket for conditioning (4-7 days). Anyone else do this / see significant results in flavor/aroma/clarity?

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I rack to secondary and dry hop in there for 7 days (or whenever it seems to be clearing). I rack into a bottling bucket making sure the siphon tube is angled to make a gentile whirlpool effect. No tertiary though.

UPDATE:

Was going to rack to secondary and dry-hop last night, but there was still a significant krausen and consistent bubbling in the blowoff bath. Early fermentation was blowing some of the krausen through the blowoff tube, my bath (star-san & water) is now slightly colored from the Krausen. I'm sure it has to be near 1.014 at least, but because of the heavy krausen i decided not to drop my hydrometer in. Couldn't gage the smell because of the krausen, will update again after i sample it (before dry hop).

Finally got around to brewing my first attempt at this using pretty much the Rjschroed's recipe with minor tweaks. Ended up overshooting gravity a bit 1.072 was aiming for 1.067 but I can live with that I'll post again in 2 weeks when I rack to secondary for dry hops.

Racked to secondary and added dry hops. Checked the SG and it was around 1.010 - 1.013 (couldn't tell because i checked after i added hops and they blocked the reading).

Tastes pretty hoppy, though there was still quite a bit of sediment that needs to drop to the bottom, so next saturday when i rack out of secondary into another bucket (for conditioning / clarification) i'll get a better idea how it's actually going to be!



Sorry for the blurry photo, thought it was clear but guess not.

BUCKNUTS said:

Finally got around to brewing my first attempt at this using pretty much the Rjschroed's recipe with minor tweaks.

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Awesome, look forward to the updates!

BUCKNUTS said:

Ended up overshooting gravity a bit 1.072 was aiming for 1.067 but I can live with that.

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Oh the horror! I think you should pour it out and try again

Jeffries55 said:

Oh the horror! I think you should pour it out and try again

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Haha. The color of your beer is looking pretty close. Looking forward to your thoughts on the fonished beer.

BUCKNUTS said:

The color of your beer is looking pretty close.

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From what i recall, White Rajah looks like it was made from all 2-row pale, i'm quite happy with the color, but yeah... the flavor changes a lot from 7-14 days (especially after dry-hop). It is quite good now, and it would be a quite good beer even without dry hopping, but that's just blasphemy! Hoping to find a bottle of White Rajah at the grocery tonight to compare in 3 weeks (If I can resist drinking it until then)

Jeffries55 said:

From what i recall, White Rajah looks like it was made from all 2-row pale, i'm quite happy with the color, but yeah... the flavor changes a lot from 7-14 days (especially after dry-hop). It is quite good now, and it would be a quite good beer even without dry hopping, but that's just blasphemy! Hoping to find a bottle of White Rajah at the grocery tonight to compare in 3 weeks (If I can resist drinking it until then)

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Rajah is definitely one of the palest ipas ive ever had it looks like a cream ale or something similar. The wort from my brew day today was one of the lightest ive produced but i have nothing but trouble with color in the program i use its never right maybe its me idk. The srm should be less than 6 according to my recipe. Time will tell i suppose.

I'm curious to see how close you think it tastes compared to the real thing. It's been hard to get here....I stop in at the restaurant a couple days a week to look for it.

BrunstuckyJoe said:

I'm curious to see how close you think it tastes compared to the real thing. It's been hard to get here....I stop in at the restaurant a couple days a week to look for it.

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I increased the 5 minute addition and am using 4 oz of dry hops which is a combo of all 6 hops. In my system at least there is no way i would get the kind of flavor and aroma that Rajah has from a couple oz of aroma and dry hops. I always have a hard time finding White Rajah here in North West Ohio but i buy it up when o do see it be ause I think it's the best beer i've ever drank and I have had many many many ipas. If I can produce somethong close to White Rajah I would be a happy man.

BUCKNUTS said:

I increased the 5 minute addition and am using 4 oz of dry hops which is a combo of all 6 hops. In my system at least there is no way i would get the kind of flavor and aroma that Rajah has from a couple oz of aroma and dry hops. I always have a hard time finding White Rajah here in North West Ohio but i buy it up when o do see it be ause I think it's the best beer i've ever drank and I have had many many many ipas. If I can produce somethong close to White Rajah I would be a happy man.

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All 5 hops not 6 ive had this phone for years and still cant type on it

Ok, I know it's a rough job, but someone has to do it: I bought a six pack and had a "tasting" last night, will post a side-by-side when I rack to secondary on Saturday.



Note that this was as the sun was setting... thought I do beleive the next time I brew it I should use closer to the 0.50 lbs of honey malt as previously noted by RJ.

A few things to note; I did get the honey malt presence I didn't before, this brew is even better than I remember it! Does anyone else think it tastes fairly similar to Stone Enjoy-By 9.13.13? (I'll do a side-by-side of that on Monday when I teach a friend to brew). The hops in this beast are amazing, definitely get the citrus up front with the honey.

I'm loving the updates. . . keep them coming.

Ok, racked back to secondary (or third, whatever you call it), and here's the results. I am going to save the flavor judgement mostly for after 2 weeks minimum carbonation.




White Rajah


My Brew


Closeup of both.

I retract my prior statement that i think it needed more honey malt, It just needed dry-hopping and aging to develop a bit more. I now get the honey, and the hop presence seems quite similar, but again, before i say too much about flavor it does need to carbonate! That said, it is similar, but there might still be something missing ... I want to say it's that "Dank" quality (Perhaps it's the summit). All said, it's quite good, but will withhold saying too much until it's fully carbonated for 2-3 weeks!

Now back to the game and some Hounddogs Pizza with White Rajah / PsycHOPathy

Looking good really close to the original look forward to your thoughts when its carbonated. My summit hops smell of garlic and onion that dankness in Rajah is Columbus i believe.

Just took a gravity reading of my attempt and attenuation was higher than predicted. When couple that with the fact that I over shot my gravity and i have a beer that is almost 8% abv. That is quite a bit higher than rajah and I'm sure in terms of "cloning" White Rajah will impact the flavor of the beer. I plan to rack to secondary tomorrow for dry hopping.

Bottled last night, got 46.5 bottles and will open the half bottle on sunday. Here's the rundown:

OG: 1.065
FG: 1.012
ABV: 6.9%

Overshot my final gravity by a point, but other than that I'd say it went quite well.

Is there such a thing as too much homebrew?



3-1/2 cases and another 5 gallons fermenting

Jeffries55 said:

Bottled last night, got 46.5 bottles and will open the half bottle on sunday. Here's the rundown:

OG: 1.065
FG: 1.012
ABV: 6.9%

Overshot my final gravity by a point, but other than that I'd say it went quite well.

Is there such a thing as too much homebrew?

3-1/2 cases and another 5 gallons fermenting

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There is a such thing as too much homebrew. Not in the picture in fermenters are my White Rajah clone attempt and my 10 gallons of Red IPA.

Sample taken when I racked to secondary. Color is really close maybe on the money when it clears. I overshot the original gravity and it attenuated more than brewersfriend predicted so it is too dry and boozy to be White Rajah. I have an imperial ipa that i'm sure will taste good but it isnt going to be White Rajah which was the point of the brew. When I do it again, and I will soon i will use more honey malt and mash at a higher temp

BUCKNUTS said:

Sample taken when I racked to secondary. Color is really close maybe on the money when it clears. I overshot the original gravity and it attenuated more than brewersfriend predicted so it is too dry and boozy to be White Rajah. I have an imperial ipa that i'm sure will taste good but it isnt going to be White Rajah which was the point of the brew. When I do it again, and I will soon i will use more honey malt and mash at a higher temp

View attachment 146825

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What type of system are you brewing on? sounds like the way I would go on my system, 6-8 oz of honey malt, mash at 152.

rjschroed said:

What type of system are you brewing on? sounds like the way I would go on my system, 6-8 oz of honey malt, mash at 152.

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BIAB either in my keggle or 11 gallon bayou classic kettle depending on batch size. I mashed 16 pounds of grain in 6 gallons of water at 150 for 60 minutes temp didn't move move than decimal points during the hour. I prefer to rinse the grains for biab so I sparged with 2 gallons of 160-ish degree water. collected 6.5 gallons of wort which I boiled 60 minutes and ended up with 5.5 gallons in primary. I have two Thermoworks thermometers that I use to double check mash temp. That's probably too low of a temp to mash at in my system for this beer? Next time mash at 152-153 and up honey malt from .5 pounds to .75 pounds.

BUCKNUTS said:

BIAB either in my keggle or 11 gallon bayou classic kettle depending on batch size. I mashed 16 pounds of grain in 6 gallons of water at 150 for 60 minutes temp didn't move move than decimal points during the hour. I prefer to rinse the grains for biab so I sparged with 2 gallons of 160-ish degree water. collected 6.5 gallons of wort which I boiled 60 minutes and ended up with 5.5 gallons in primary. I have two Thermoworks thermometers that I use to double check mash temp. That's probably too low of a temp to mash at in my system for this beer? Next time mash at 152-153 and up honey malt from .5 pounds to .75 pounds.

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sounds like you are on the right track. I don't have a lot of experience with honey malt but everything I've experienced, read and heard points to not going beyond about 5% of the grist.

Just finished bottling my White Rajah attempt and as expected it has more of an alcohol bite but the flavor and aroma are really nice and if I can hit the numbers closer to the recipe and mash at a higher temp this has real potential to be close to the original. I won't alter the recipe at all except the mash temp. I'll post again when it's carbonated.

I'm very interested in your update as I am looking to clone this beer as well. This is definitely one of my favorites and would love a final recipe!

plankbr said:

I'm very interested in your update as I am looking to clone this beer as well. This is definitely one of my favorites and would love a final recipe!

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Its carbonated now and while it is good it isnt White Rajah too high abv and hop flavor a bit to floral to be Rajah. The color is very close. I'm happy to drink it though as it's very tasty. I have tweaked the recipe I used a little to address the issues I have with it. If you would like i will post the recipe I brewed and the revised one that way I could get some thoughts from others. I want to make an ipa that is even close to White Rajah as it is the best beer I have ever had.

I say definitely post the recipe

brewski09 said:

i say definitely post the recipe

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please please please

White Rajah Clone #1
Method: BIAB Style: American IPA
Boil Time: 60 min Batch Size: 6 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 7.5 gallons Efficiency: 65% (brew house)
Boil Gravity:1.056 (recipe based estimate)
Original Gravity:1.070 Final Gravity:1.020 ABV (standard):6.58%
IBU (tinseth):87.02SRM
(morey):5.79

Fermentables
Amount Fermentable PPG °L Bill %
16 lb American - Pale 2-Row 37 1.8 91.4%
0.5 lb American - Carapils (Dextrine Malt) 33 1.8 2.9%
0.5 lb Canadian - Honey Malt 37 25 2.9%
0.5 lb Flaked Barley 32 2.2 2.9%

Hops
Amount Variety Time AA IBU Type Use
0.5 oz Columbus Pellet 15 Boil 60 min 22.56
0.75 oz Centennial Pellet 13 Boil 20 min 17.76
1 oz Citra Pellet 11 Boil 20 min 20.04
0.25 oz Columbus Pellet 15 Boil 20 min 6.83
0.5 oz Nelson Sauvin Pellet 12.5 Boil 20 min 11.39
0.25 oz Summit Pellet 18.5 Boil 20 min 8.43
0.75 oz Centennial Pellet 13 Boil 0 min
1 oz Citra Pellet 11 Boil 0 min
0.25 oz Columbus Pellet 15 Boil 0 min
0.5 oz Nelson Sauvin Pellet 12.5 Boil 0 min
0.25 oz Summit Pellet 18.5 Boil 0 min
0.75 oz Centennial Pellet 13 Dry Hop 7 days
1 oz Citra Pellet 11 Dry Hop 7 days
1 oz Nelson Sauvin Pellet 12.5 Dry Hop 7 days
0.5 oz Columbus Pellet 15 Dry Hop 7 days
0.25 oz Summit Pellet 18.5 Dry Hop 7 days

Mash Guidelines
Amount Description Type Temp Time
7 gal Mash Infusion 150 F 60 min
2 gal Sparge 160 F 10 min

Other Ingredients
Amount Name Type Use Time
0.5 tsp Yeast Nutrients Other Boil 10 min
1 tsp Irish Moss Fining Boil 10 min

Yeast
Fermentis / Safale - American Ale Yeast US-05
Attenuation (avg): 72% Flocculation: Medium
Optimum Temp: 59 - 75 °F Starter: No
Fermentation Temp: 65 °F Pitch Rate: 0.5 (M cells / ml / ° P)

Priming
Method: Corn Sugar Amount: 0.75oz/gallon

White Rajah Clone #2
Method: BIAB Style: American IPA
Boil Time: 60 min Batch Size: 6 gallons (fermenter volume)
Boil Size: 7.5 gallons Efficiency: 65% (brew house)
Boil Gravity:1.056 (recipe based estimate)
Original Gravity:1.070 Final Gravity:1.020 ABV (standard):6.58%
IBU (tinseth):70.61
SRM (morey):5.79

Fermentables
Amount Fermentable PPG °L Bill %
16 lb American - Pale 2-Row 37 1.8 91.4%
0.5 lb American - Carapils (Dextrine Malt) 33 1.8 2.9%
0.5 lb Canadian - Honey Malt 37 25 2.9%
0.5 lb Flaked Barley 32 2.2 2.9%

Hops
Amount Variety Time AA IBU Type Use
0.25 oz Columbus Pellet 15 Boil 60 min 11.28
0.5 oz Centennial Pellet 13 Boil 20 min 11.84
1.25 oz Citra Pellet 11 Boil 20 min 25.05
0.25 oz Columbus Pellet 15 Boil 20 min 6.83
0.5 oz Nelson Sauvin Pellet 12.5 Boil 20 min 11.39
0.125 oz Summit Pellet 18.5 Boil 20 min 4.21
0.5 oz Centennial Pellet 13 Boil 0 min
1.25 oz Citra Pellet 11 Boil 0 min
0.75 oz Columbus Pellet 15 Boil 0 min
0.5 oz Nelson Sauvin Pellet 12.5 Boil 0 min
0.125 oz Summit Pellet 18.5 Boil 0 min
0.75 oz Centennial Pellet 13 Dry Hop 7 days
1 oz Citra Pellet 11 Dry Hop 7 days
1 oz Nelson Sauvin Pellet 12.5 Dry Hop 7 days
0.5 oz Columbus Pellet 15 Dry Hop 7 days
0.25 oz Summit Pellet 18.5 Dry Hop 7 days

Mash Guidelines
Amount Description Type Temp Time
7 gal Mash Infusion 152 F 60 min
2 gal Sparge 160 F 10 min

Other Ingredients
Amount Name Type Use Time
0.5 tsp Yeast Nutrients Other Boil 10 min
1 tsp Irish Moss Fining Boil 10 min

Yeast
Fermentis / Safale - American Ale Yeast US-05
Attenuation (avg): 72% Flocculation: Medium
Optimum Temp: 59 - 75 °F Starter: No
Fermentation Temp: 65 °F Pitch Rate: 0.5 (M cells / ml / ° P)
Priming
Method: Corn Sugar Amount: 0.75oz/gallon

Notes
Even with just 0.5oz of Columbus at 60 min attempt#1 is too bitter. The floral notes are too strong for White Rajah and it lacks that slight dankness that Rajah has. The beer is also too dry and too boozy. To correct those issues I decreased Columbus at 60 and centennial & Summit at 20 and 0. Increased all Citra additions and Columbus at 0 and DH.
Mash temp increased to 152

I will be kegging attempt #2. Please feel free to critique guys I'm looking for advice as I want to produce something close to White Rajah.

Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?