Tannins a myth?

I know they exist, but what I am hearing lately suggests that grain sediment in the wort is not a significant factor for creating Tannins in beer.

Tannins are only a problem if the grain bed exceeds 170 degrees or if your pH is out of whack. Control temperature and pH and you won't have any problems with tannins.

My impression is that you are saying that carrying over grain bits into the boil kettle could add tannins to the beer?

I don't know if grain bits in your kettle will add tannins, but I do recognize that its more possible. Do properly lauter and clarify the runoff before running wort into the kettle to reduce that potential. The wort pH in the kettle is not likely to allow tannin extraction, but the temperatures are obviously going to be high. The potential would be there.

mabrungard said:

My impression is that you are saying that carrying over grain bits into the boil kettle could add tannins to the beer?

I don't know if grain bits in your kettle will add tannins, but I do recognize that its more possible. Do properly lauter and clarify the runoff before running wort into the kettle to reduce that potential. The wort pH in the kettle is not likely to allow tannin extraction, but the temperatures are obviously going to be high. The potential would be there.

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In another thread the OP stated using BIAB.

It seems to me that to have a problem with excess tannins almost takes work to make it happen. If I am not mistaken it takes both high temperatures and certain PH levels to cause a problem.

I would think that what little husk gets through the bag would not have enough mass to cause any significant amounts of tannin. It is usually a concern with boiling the entire grain bill.

I don't use BIAB, but I had always been told to recirculate until sediment is gone. I took that to an extreme, and now wonder if I am wasting time and effort.

Sounds like I am.

I'm sure you can extract tannins, but I don't know how. In my decoction mashes I BOIL two thirds of the grain and no tannins. I have also accidentally batch sparged at 190 for 10 minutes and also no trace of tannins in the finished beer. Maybe I have good water. It is probably more of a PH/ water chemistry issue.

Tannin extraction is minimally effected but temperature. Tannins will be extracted as your mashes pH rises (becomes more basic). Ideal mash pH is 5.1-5.5, the pH of water out of the tap is around 6.8-8 depending on where you are. So the problem of tannin extraction from the grain husks arises mostly if you are fly sparging or multiple batch sparging.If you are fly sparging, or if you do say a third batch sparge and your runnings get down to 1.020 and below the buffering capability of your mash has been diluted out and the pH can start to rise. Hi temps can enhance this problem, but the main culprit is high pH.

The easiest way to avoid this problem is to pad your grain bill a bit. but if you want to too you can use a phosphate buffer for your sparge water or acidify it.

cheezydemon3 said:

I don't use BIAB, but I had always been told to recirculate until sediment is gone. I took that to an extreme, and now wonder if I am wasting time and effort.

Sounds like I am.

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Sorry about saying BIAB. I must have confused with another that I read this morning, or - not enough coffee by then.

kh54s10 said:

Sorry about saying BIAB. I must have confused with another that I read this morning, or - not enough coffee by then.

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No! That is Ok. I did reference BIAB in a nother thread asking if the tiny bits that never get sparged through a grainbed make tannins.

I extracted tannins once. I won't do it again. I think it was my first all grain BIAB with my local tap water. No water chemistry. Turns out afterwards my tap water ph was approaching 9. Temps where ok but I can assume now the ph was HIGH. I would say it is more of a function of ph than temperature. Also with full volume BIAB your grains don't reduce the ph as much as with less water.

Now I use RO water and adjust with salts for different grain bills. Much happier.

As far as the stuff that gets through the bag....I haven't had any problem. Even a few husks make it through every now and then. EEK

Interesting.

Tannin tales were told by mods and old timers when I first joined.

But just so I'm clear:

If you had NO grain bits, but high PH, would you still get tannins?

I had a batch turn out astringent due to oversparging. The ph of your mash increases as you sparge and eventually I must have pushed the limit. I did a double batch sparge with a large volume and no water adjustment. It wasnt horrible; other people who tasted the batch said they didn't notice it but I definitely could. Now I err on the side of lower efficiency and smaller sparge volume.

cheezydemon3 said:

Interesting.

Tannin tales were told by mods and old timers when I first joined.

But just so I'm clear:

If you had NO grain bits, but high PH, would you still get tannins?

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Yes.

But I'm not sure what the magic ph is that extracts them to the point of taste threshold.