mash/ferment temp for ESB?

I am making my first SMaSH ESB tomorrow grain bill is

Est. OG 1.053
Est. IBU 42

11lbs. MO
1.5oz EKG @FWH
1oz @15
1oz @5
.5oz @0
Whilrfloc @15
WLP007

Looking for a good mash and fermentation temp from anyone who has brewed something similar?

Thanks

id add some color, maybe a dash of patent? anyways mash around 154. still sorta dry but not super dry

I think 154F is fine for the mash. Fermentation temps depends on the strain and how much character you want from it.

tre9er said:

id add some color, maybe a dash of patent? anyways mash around 154. still sorta dry but not super dry

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It is a little on the light side of color but I wanted to do a SMASH.. would toasting maybe 2 pounds of the MO darken it? also thanks for the tip on 154F im thinking I will ferment at 68.

The MO SMaSH I made, and is on tap, was mashed at 150F for an hour. For 'color' I use 11oz of Crystal Maris Otter (makes it still a SMaSH). I also did 1.5oz of EKG (7.20% AA) at 60, 15, 10, and 5 minutes (1.5oz at each step) in a 10.5 gallon batch size into fermenter. IBU's came out to 39.5, with 6.0% ABV. Damned fine drinker.

I fermented it in the low to mid 60's (used Wyeast 1882-PC). I have an IPA version about to go into serving kegs. That one was about 6.75 gallons into primary. Used 14# MO and 8oz of Crystal MO, mashed at 152F for an hour. I decided to hop burst this time and went with 2oz at 20 minutes, 1.5oz at 15, 1oz at 10, 1oz at 5 and 2oz at 1 minute. Used 1882-PC again and kept it closer to 60F for the fermentation. It's been sitting in the cooler side of the basement for a few weeks (52-56F range). I need to keg it so that iI can carbonate it for when the current keg of MO SMaSH kicks. It's a recipe I do my best to always have available for drinking.

100% crowd pleaser. :rockin:

Add 1/2# of Crystal 15L and 1/4# of Crystal 120L

Mash at 152

You could also use WLP002

cwilliamsccn said:

It is a little on the light side of color but I wanted to do a SMASH.. would toasting maybe 2 pounds of the MO darken it? also thanks for the tip on 154F im thinking I will ferment at 68.

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Rebel Brewer has Crystal MO, which is 55L.

helibrewer and tre9er, the OP wants to do a Maris Otter SMaSH ESB... As such, your comments won't fly...

Golddiggie said:

Rebel Brewer has Crystal MO, which is 55L.

helibrewer and tre9er, the OP wants to do a Maris Otter SMaSH ESB... As such, your comments won't fly...

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Thanks. I'll drop by morebeer tomorrow since they are down the street and see if they have a crystal MO otherwise im just gonna stick with my SMaSH

Golddiggie said:

Rebel Brewer has Crystal MO, which is 55L.

helibrewer and tre9er, the OP wants to do a Maris Otter SMaSH ESB... As such, your comments won't fly...

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Without some caramel malt sweetness it isn't an ESB. It's maybe a SMaSH Light Hydrid or Blonde Ale

Yes, actually it is.

"... Judges should not judge all beers in this style as if they were Fuller’s ESB clones. Some modern English variants are brewed exclusively with pale malt and are known as golden or summer bitters. ..."

A higher mash temp around 154 will ensure enough body in the absense of any crystal malts. Fermenting a bit warm, around 68 will produce some esters will be very pleasant with no clashing caramel flavors.

Also, I would add the whirlfloc @ 5 minutes. It starts to denature after ~10 mins of boiling.

The Crystal MO will add a little color and some caramel malt hints while maintaining the SMaSH recipe. It also allows you to mash lower so that it finishes a bit cleaner. Using a solid English yeast strain, fermented at the right temp range also helps. I would use Wyeast 1335 (1318 in a pinch) for this, when I don't have 1882 available.

BTW, an ESB is [really] an English Pale Ale, and is open to interpretation on points. IMO, you still need to use as many ingredients from England as possible. Fortunately, these days, that's not difficult to do. Or rather isn't if YOU want to.

I will concede on the modern variants but mash temps cannot adjust for a lack of crystal malt. Crystal adds color and caramelized sugars. The higher temp could replace some Carapils-type character.

IME, about 3-3.5% Crystal Maris Otter takes care of what you'll want in an ESB while maintaining the SMaSH integrity.

Golddiggie said:

IME, about 3-3.5% Crystal Maris Otter takes care of what you'll want in an ESB while maintaining the SMaSH integrity.

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I'll have to track some of that down and try it. I see the Simpson's on Rebel Brewer's site is 55L.....seems about right, a happy medium between the 15L and 120L

i believe i toasted some pale ale malt for my SMaSH ESB, just enough to cover a cookie sheet and just until it got to a brown color. it finished fairly dark but dry. i will look up my mash temp. it was all EKG, which is my fav english hop ATM

helibrewer said:

I'll have to track some of that down and try it. I see the Simpson's on Rebel Brewer's site is 55L.....seems about right, a happy medium between the 15L and 120L

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I'm sure some other HBS have it. If not, then just place an order with Rebel. :rockin:

I keep a supply of Crystal MO on hand at all times. When I get down to my last pound (or so) I make sure to order more.

Looks like I used 9oz. of toasted barley in a 5g batch and mashed at 155. It did finish somewhat dry, not super dry though and the british or pale malts plus the toasted grain brings a malty flavor nonetheless.

Why do you want to do a SMASH?
If you want to do it to get a better knowledge of the flavors of the malt and hops, then I wouldn't use crystal malt as even a small amount makes a big difference to the flavor, but if you try it with and without the crystal malt, I think you would prefer the version with the crystal over the version without.

As regards mash temps, both Ray Daniels (Designing Great Beers) and Greg Noonan (New Brewing Lager Beer) state that British Pale Ales are traditionally mashed at 148 - 150F and with a thick mash of about 1 US qt per lb grain. That is what I do, and it works very well for me. I find that mashing thinner with M.O. gives a thinner tasting beer. Fermentation temperatures, I just keep at 68F using WLP002.

I think the FWH would give a beer with more hop flavors than the normal British brews (which compared to many American brews have a rather subdued hop presence). However, I think I may try it, because I think I would like the result.

Good luck.

-a.

ajf said:

Why do you want to do a SMASH?
If you want to do it to get a better knowledge of the flavors of the malt and hops, then I wouldn't use crystal malt as even a small amount makes a big difference to the flavor, but if you try it with and without the crystal malt, I think you would prefer the version with the crystal over the version without.

As regards mash temps, both Ray Daniels (Designing Great Beers) and Greg Noonan (New Brewing Lager Beer) state that British Pale Ales are traditionally mashed at 148 - 150F and with a thick mash of about 1 US qt per lb grain. That is what I do, and it works very well for me. I find that mashing thinner with M.O. gives a thinner tasting beer. Fermentation temperatures, I just keep at 68F using WLP002.

I think the FWH would give a beer with more hop flavors than the normal British brews (which compared to many American brews have a rather subdued hop presence). However, I think I may try it, because I think I would like the result.

Good luck.

-a.

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A MO/EKG SMaSH, done well, is like ambrosia. Do as much late addition hops as you can, or hop burst it to epic results (in a great way). Combine it with a great English yeast strain and you cannot fail. I do like mashing my MO SMaSH recipes at either 150F or 152F. I mash at my normal ratio range (1.25-1.35/#) for this recipe.

Crystal MO will allow you to add a little more special 'sumpthin sumpthin' to the batch. :rockin: I do plan on making a batch without the crystal MO in it, at some point. But with the version I've been brewing coming out as epic as it has, that's on the back burner. Using Crystal MO means it's STILL a SMaSH recipe.

I've also found that fermenting as close to the low end of the yeast strains listed range gives best results too.

For the OP, brew it up either with, or without, the Crystal MO. Just make sure you brew enough of it since I suspect it will go FAST. I'm finding that I have to brew it at least every 3-4 times (or no more than 3 months apart) so that I can keep enough on hand. I'm also forced to ration it to myself. I can't kick a keg until another keg of it is chilled and carbonated already. :fro:

Golddiggie said:

A MO/EKG SMaSH, done well, is like ambrosia.

Well, Ambrosia (in England) is a thoroughly disgusting rice pudding. I don't think I would like an ESB that tasted like that.

Do as much late addition hops as you can, or hop burst it to epic results (in a great way). Combine it with a great English yeast strain and you cannot fail.

This would not be typical of an English Pale Ale, but I agree that it could be interesting. That's how I do my English IPA's, but they are nothing like any commercial English IPA.

I do like mashing my MO SMaSH recipes at either 150F or 152F. I mash at my normal ratio range (1.25-1.35/#) for this recipe.

Have you ever tried a thick mash? I find it gives a completely different character to the beer.


Crystal MO will allow you to add a little more special 'sumpthin sumpthin' to the batch. :rockin: I do plan on making a batch without the crystal MO in it, at some point. But with the version I've been brewing coming out as epic as it has, that's on the back burner. Using Crystal MO means it's STILL a SMaSH recipe.

I agree, but the crystal would interfere with the taste if you wanted to do a SMaSH to understand the difference between M.O. and another base malt.


I've also found that fermenting as close to the low end of the yeast strains listed range gives best results too.

Probably because you learned to drink in America. I prefer fermenting at a higher temperature, because I learned to drink in England.

For the OP, brew it up either with, or without, the Crystal MO. Just make sure you brew enough of it since I suspect it will go FAST. I'm finding that I have to brew it at least every 3-4 times (or no more than 3 months apart) so that I can keep enough on hand. I'm also forced to ration it to myself. I can't kick a keg until another keg of it is chilled and carbonated already. :fro:

No more than 3 months apart? I have to brew it no more than 3 weeks apart.
Chilled and carbonated? Should be warm and flat.

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-a.

Chilled for me is 40F in the brew fridge and just enough carbonation to get it to taste great. I aim for the style parameters there. NOT like your typical American beer (crap)...

Just because I live over here doesn't mean I drink beer from here. I've actually never really been happy with American beers. I've been brewing British Isle styles since I started making my own recipes (batch #4). I use as much UK ingredients as possible (only one or two malts are not from the UK, and the hop strains and yeast strains are all UK).

BTW, never really had ambrosia, so I'm going off of the social context here.

I can go further apart since I keg in 3 gallon corny kegs. Since I get 6 gallons out of fermenter, I fill two of those. By the time I'm tapping the second (or last if I did a bigger batch size) I'm either brewing it again, or planning to very soon.

I might try the lower ratio for the next batch. Maybe even 100% MO too. But for the yeast, I'll keep fermenting in the basement here (mid to low 50's). I really like what the yeast strains give me at the lower temperatures. The yeast typically warms the batch up enough over ambient to get the job done right. So, I have zero need for a fermentation chamber. :rockin:

Golddiggie said:

BTW, never really had ambrosia, so I'm going off of the social context here.

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Food of the gods in Greek mythology, so I knew exactly what you meant in the original post.

tre9er said:

Food of the gods in Greek mythology, so I knew exactly what you meant in the original post.

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Was hoping so... Besides, leave it to the Brit's to F up something like that...

Didn't get anything else for this brew it's boiling away as I type this. Mashed at 152. Will post results in a few weeks. Thanks for all the tips everyone.

Its been 4 days now and it seems like its done but gravity is still 1.022 started at 1.062 which was higher than expected though. Fermented at 64F gonna raise it up to 68-70 to see if it starts back up otherwise the hydro sample taste awesome.

At MOST, I would let it go to about 67-68F. I would seriously advise just giving it another week, or two, and then pull a sample.

I never pull a sample at less than 2-3 weeks from pitching time. Taking more samples/readings is only making you nervous and opening up the brew to possible contamination/infection sources. None of that is a good thing. Leave it along, let the yeast do what it will at it's own rate and don't worry.

Why is everybody mashing so low? I mash ESB at 156F for a maltier finish.
Brewed a Red Hook ESB clone this weekend as a matter of fact.
Wyeast 1098 at about 68F for this one.

Golddiggie said:

At MOST, I would let it go to about 67-68F. I would seriously advise just giving it another week, or two, and then pull a sample.

I never pull a sample at less than 2-3 weeks from pitching time. Taking more samples/readings is only making you nervous and opening up the brew to possible contamination/infection sources. None of that is a good thing. Leave it along, let the yeast do what it will at it's own rate and don't worry.

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Funny I read this when I was going to pull a sample.. I'm impatient I know.. its at 68 in my closet i will let it sit for another week or two

Golddiggie said:

I never pull a sample at less than 2-3 weeks from pitching time.

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Most of my basic ales I take samples starting around day 5-7. Many times they're done by then and I want to get to the warming stage to clean them up, that way I can have them kegged inside of two weeks. Of course, waiting is best, but if it tastes good and it's finished, I drink it.

tre9er said:

Most of my basic ales I take samples starting around day 5-7. Many times they're done by then and I want to get to the warming stage to clean them up, that way I can have them kegged inside of two weeks. Of course, waiting is best, but if it tastes good and it's finished, I drink it.

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I'm patient and my pipeline is solid... So, I can afford to wait.

This thread turned into great lulz.

Golddiggie said:

I'm patient and my pipeline is solid... So, I can afford to wait.

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Yep. I must drink too much 9g of beer tends to last just a few weeks to a month around here. I brew 27g in 3 weeks then try to take a few weeks off...I do have a case or so of bottled beer still carbing due to lack of enough kegs...but beyond that I have just 3 kegs, 2 of which are the same beer. See, this is how you go broke brewing...needing more equipment...

tre9er said:

Yep. I must drink too much 9g of beer tends to last just a few weeks to a month around here. I brew 27g in 3 weeks then try to take a few weeks off...I do have a case or so of bottled beer still carbing due to lack of enough kegs...but beyond that I have just 3 kegs, 2 of which are the same beer. See, this is how you go broke brewing...needing more equipment...

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How many people do you have drinking your homebrew??

This beer has completely cleared and still at 1.022 it taste good though so i'll prob wait a week and keg it.

cwilliamsccn said:

This beer has completely cleared and still at 1.022 it taste good though so i'll prob wait a week and keg it.

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You're at 5.3% ABV there... Not bad at all. Should be a pretty easy drinking brew. :rockin: Just be prepared to brew it again soon.

Golddiggie said:

How many people do you have drinking your homebrew??

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Self, mostly, wife might have a glass a night, sometimes none at all, and occasionally there is a party or friends come over, rather rare though. I just love to drink beer.

tre9er said:

Self, mostly, wife might have a glass a night, sometimes none at all, and occasionally there is a party or friends come over, rather rare though. I just love to drink beer.

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I don't think I could go through 9 gallons of brew in under a month. I have one to three pints a night (most nights, although there are days when I don't have any). Even when I'm giving brew to others (mom mostly, she loves my IPA's and pale ales) I don't go through it that fast.

At least you can brew enough to keep a decent flow of beer going. I normally try to brew every 2-4 weeks. Sometimes more often, sometimes less often. Depends on what else is going on.

Golddiggie said:

You're at 5.3% ABV there... Not bad at all. Should be a pretty easy drinking brew. :rockin: Just be prepared to brew it again soon.

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My thoughts exactly the OG was 10 points higher than expected so I was going for a mid 5% beer anyway and looks like I got it.. I want to keg it now it taste so good.

You might want to double check the accuracy of the thermometer you used.

Golddiggie said:

You might want to double check the accuracy of the thermometer you used.

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That's a good idea I will . the last 2 brews I had stock got stuck at 1.022 also had to add sugar to those to get them to start back up.