Is it true that dough-in procedure can affect FG?

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pherball

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I have always added grain first, then strike-water second to my mash tun. For various reasons I would like to start adding the water to the tun first. I have heard some speculation that doing this will lead to a higher finishing gravity. So I have some reservations about making the change.

Has anyone had this experience? And would someone please explain *how* this might result (denatured enzymes, perhaps).

Thanks
 
I always add the water first then stir in the grain. For me it’s easier and never had a problem with final gravities or efficiencies. I could see how adding grain to water over 160 degrees would denature some of the enzymes but I usually get fast conversion and never have issues with mashing.
 
I think a lot of people go water first then add the grain. The only way you will be able to tell is do a side by side test. Do it both ways and see if you notice a difference on Your system.
 
I use to add the water to the grain and found it to be a huge pain and much harder to control the temperature. When you add the water to the mash tun first you can add it a few temps warmer than needed, preheat the mash tun and when it comes down to your temp throw in the grain. Going the opposite way makes it harder to preheat the mash tun until you know exactly how much heat the mash tun itself is going to soak up.
 
I do water then grain and never have a problem with high FG. Latest beer I just bottled was 80% attenuated (with White Labs WLP022 Essex Ale) and I typically have beers attenuate a little more than the stated range for yeasts.
 
I think King of Cascade touched on it. If you dough-in grain-to-water to rest at say 152* F, then the water obv needs to be hotter than that, lets say 165* F. So when you add that first bit of grain to all that water it's getting quickly heated up to ~165* F which denatures some of the enzymes. After you've added all the grain and stirred the temp comes down to your rest temp.

If you dough-in water-to-grain, that first bit of water is quickly cooled by all that grain and the enzymes are not denatured. It is only after you've added all the water and stirred that temp finally comes up to your rest temp (neglecting any overshoot to account for tun heating).

So imo it's more like "if everything else is kept equal" then you may get a slightly higher FG doughing-in grain-to-water. But one could easily make a slight adjustment to account for this so it's no big deal.
 
SpanishCastleAle said:
I think King of Cascade touched on it. If you dough-in grain-to-water to rest at say 152* F, then the water obv needs to be hotter than that, lets say 165* F. So when you add that first bit of grain to all that water it's getting quickly heated up to ~165* F which denatures some of the enzymes. After you've added all the grain and stirred the temp comes down to your rest temp.

If you dough-in water-to-grain, that first bit of water is quickly cooled by all that grain and the enzymes are not denatured. It is only after you've added all the water and stirred that temp finally comes up to your rest temp (neglecting any overshoot to account for tun heating).

So imo it's more like "if everything else is kept equal" then you may get a slightly higher FG doughing-in grain-to-water. But one could easily make a slight adjustment to account for this so it's no big deal.
Click to expand...

Given that, I should clarify what I do. I dough in at room temp, then ramp up using my RIMS system. So my results may vary from what others are experiencing.
 
I tried adding water to grain once. It was the biggest frakking mess I have ever had brewing. It was one big dough ball and simply would not drain. I had to use an ale pail with a grain bag, and shovel it all over, then try to sparge.

That batch came out a starchy mess, that strangely fermented out to a very high ABV. But, it tasted like dirt. It went down the drain.

So, I add grain to water now.

;)
 
SpanishCastleAle said:
If you dough-in grain-to-water to rest at say 152* F, then the water obv needs to be hotter than that, lets say 165* F. So when you add that first bit of grain to all that water it's getting quickly heated up to ~165* F which denatures some of the enzymes.
Click to expand...
Is this speculation or proven fact? Can’t the enzymes survive when exposed to heat for a short amount of time? And even if “some” of the enzymes are denatured will their absence have any effect on the mash? By personal experience and from the number of brewers who go with grain to water this statement can probably be stamped as “myth.”
 
I really don't think this is true. I've never seen any study (although I've never looked) on whether adding water to grain or adding grain to water will effect fermentability of the wort. Unless it takes you 20 minutes to dough in, I really don't see it making any difference.
 
AnOldUR said:
Is this speculation or proven fact? Can’t the enzymes survive when exposed to heat for a short amount of time? And even if “some” of the enzymes are denatured will their absence have any effect on the mash? By personal experience and from the number of brewers who go with grain to water this statement can probably be stamped as “myth.”
Click to expand...
Pure speculation. I don't expect it to be much though and in many (maybe even most) cases to be negligible. When I said 'enzymes' I should have said 'beta-amylase enzyme' since it's the enzyme that affects fermentability most.

As far as 'stamped as myth' I guess I thought just the opposite; i.e. that it should be very apparent that this would be the case. Maybe not to a large degree in most cases but still seems extremely apparent.

Think about why a mash @ 152* F will yield a more fermentable wort than 154* F. Both temps are above the 'range' for beta-amylase and beta will become denatured at either temp over a certain period of time. But it denatures more slowly at 152* F so the beta has more time to act and you get a more fermentable wort. It seems that doughing-in high and letting the temp decrease (i.e. grain-to-water) vs. doughing-in low and letting the temp increase (i.e. water-to-grain) should be enough of a difference to have an effect on the beta and thus the fermentability.

But again it's not like it matters, we all adjust our process to achieve our goals and hitting your target FG should be no problem either way.
 

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