Extract Addition Timing

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Flatspin

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OK, so I made an extract kit today. Everything went well, but I was left with a question. The recipe for the kit called for 3 lbs of LME at the beginning of the beginning of the boil and 6 lbs of LME with 15 minutes left in the boil.

What advantages/disadvantages are there to adding extract at different times during the boil?
 
Advantages:

Reduce kettle wort density (gravity), which improves hops utilization
Reduce color darkening

Disadvantages:

If you add before the end of the boil time, you run into a Catch-22: in order to safely add LME and prevent scorching, you must switch off the heat. When you do that, the boil stops. Which means your 60-minute hops addition just became 45 minutes (or whatever), which screws up your IBU calculations.
It's a PITA to add late.

Solution:

Add your extra extract at flameout. The wort is at that point still hot enough to kill any possible nasties in the syrup (which is highly unlikely).

That's what I do. By the time my chiller brings the bitter wort below pasteurization temperatures, the kettle has sat long enough that anything I put in at flameout is pasteurized. ;)

Cheers,

Bob
 
Hop utilization, less extract tends toward more hop utilization
Color, lighter beer with later extract addition
Flavor, less caramelized flavors with late addition

Those are the three I know of.
 
Thanks for all the quick responses. It does make sense that having a thinner wort would promote a higher hop acid extraction. But, if anyone wants to get more technical, I am always up for learning something new!
 
While it's (fairly) accepted that late extract additions improve hop utilization, I personally haven't noticed a huge difference with it.

That said the difference in the color of the finished beer is quite noticeable. I also notice a cleaner flavor (ie: no extract twang), which I'd imagine is the lack of (or reduction of) wort caramelization.
 
Flatspin,

Hop utilization means your beer will be much more bitter (more hoppy) if you use the same amount of hops and split the extract.

TF
 
The very reasons I started doing late malt additions & hop bursting. Lighter color,better hop utilization,cleaner flavor,more hop flavor than bittering. No caramel flavors,just better flavor complexity of the malts involved in the extract used.
 
That's really interesting, I was thinking about making a RIS with extract as the main fermentable, so now I'm thinking that I will put most of it in at the end of the boil. Has anyone here tried something like that before?
 
Allow me to digress more fully. I typically use 3lbs of plain DME with 3.75lbs of LME in my ales. The LME being pre hopped with some bittering only. I use half the DME.or 1.5lbs in the 2.5G boil for hop bursting (late hop additions). Then,before I turn off the burner,I add the remaining DME & stir to fully incorporate.
Then take it off the heat to add the LME,stiring till no more can be scraped off the bottom. Then chill before topping off in the fermenter. The quicker it chills down to pitch temp,the better. Less chill haze later...
 
Bob said:
While true, this is an over-simplification. ;) I can expand on this if you want, OP.

Bob
Click to expand...

I'll ask, would you mind expanding :) The more the better for me, I'm trying to learn everything I can!
 
Okay, here it is in semi-technical brewer-speak.

There are a variety of points during the brewing cycle that gravities are taken. Usually homebrewers only worry about two: OG and FG. There are more, and they tie in with how and why things happen the way they do in the brewing process.

There are "kettle gravities", which allow us to observe - and therefore tweak if we need to - what's going on in kettle. The pre-boil gravity helps us to predict if we're going to hit our post-boil gravity. Kettle gravity determines hops alpha-acid utilization, or the degree to which the alpha acids isomerize into solution in the wort.

It is a rule of thumb that the lower the kettle gravity, the better the utilization, though there is a lower limit to that rule. It appears that below a certain gravity utilization starts to drop off, indicating that the hops seem to want a certain amount of malt in solution. No one knows exactly why.

Here's a practical example:

Let's imagine a 5 gallons (US) batch of homebrew with a desired of OG 1.048 (12°P). We want that beer to have IBU of ~30.*

When you boil the entire volume of wort, plus an amount to account for losses during the boil, the IBU calculation does not change. Many homebrewers practice a smaller boil volume than the entire brew length, however, say 3 gallons for a 5 gallon batch. If you put all your extract in at the beginning, that can present utilization problems, because the kettle gravity will change if you keep the same amount of fermentables and reduce the volume.

In our example, I'm using 6 lbs of dry malt extract plus some specialty grain. If I add all my extract to a 3-gallon boil, my kettle gravity is 1.095 and the IBU imparted at the end of the boil will be ~19. If I keep 3 lbs of DME back to add late, my kettle gravity is reduced to 1.052 and the IBU will be ~30, right where I want it.

Here's a halfway decent visual reference:

wp4ce47774.png


As you can see, the Utilization % is influenced by two factors: Kettle gravity and time in boil. The higher the kettle gravity (represented by the numbers on the right of the chart marking lines), the lower the utilization %, and therefore the less bitterness gets in your wort.

Make sense?

Cheers,

Bob

* IBU prediction, even with an immense weight of brewing science behind it, is not a foolproof, absolutely accurate process. But since neither you nor I can taste the difference between 30 and 34 IBU, practically speaking it doesn't matter much. ;)
 
unionrdr said:
Then,before I turn off the burner,I add the remaining DME & stir to fully incorporate.
Then take it off the heat to add the LME,stiring till no more can be scraped off the bottom. Then chill before topping off in the fermenter. The quicker it chills down to pitch temp,the better. Less chill haze later...
Click to expand...

Have you ever had DMS problem with this method ?!

Hector
 
Why would he? Every extract manufacturer of which I am aware has a procedure specifically designed to remove DMS precursors as part of the extract manufacturing process.

DMS is not something extract brewers need worry about.

Bob
 
Bob said:
DMS is not something extract brewers need worry about.
Click to expand...

As far as I know , Extract is commercially made by boiling the Wort , but in lower pressures which leads to lower boiling points . Therefore , there are still some precursors , due to their half lives which should be boiled off .

John Palmer said once in a Podcast that a 60-minute-boil is enough for extract batches ( comparing with 90 minutes for AG ) .

Hector
 
Okay, you're right, there are DMS precursors. Happy now? :rolleyes:

The point is, the vanishingly small amount of DMS precursors is nothing to worry about.

A 60-minute boil is sufficient for AG batches of flavorful beer, too; homebrewers prove that thousands of gallons worth per day.

DMS is one of those bugbears that, like hot-side aeration, homebrewers only need to worry much about if they use a large proportion of Pils malt in an all-grain beer with low hopping rates, few specialty grains and a yeast with a transparent flavor profile.

In terms of possible DMS precursors, adding extract late isn't going to cause any issues whatever.

Practically speaking, if you're brewing an all-grain Pils or American Lager, keep up a vigorous, rolling boil for 90 minutes. If you're not, don't worry about it. Simple as that.

I really wish people would stop idly tossing around less-than-accurate information.

Bob
 
I've never had DMS issues with my process,for the reasons already stated. Not even in light pale ales. The fact that I used late additions for the remaining DME, & all the LME isn't going to automatically cause DMS to rear it's ugly head. I also forgot to mention that I leave it to steep with a lid on for 15mins or so after the late additions are stirred in. OH,THE HORROR!!! No,didn't get anything off from that either. I also use o2 barrier caps,They work so well,I'm sold on them. They def seem to keep the beer fit to drink after long periods. Moreso then the regular caps did in this regard.
 
Bob said:
Okay, here it is in semi-technical brewer-speak.

There are a variety of points during the brewing cycle that gravities are taken. Usually homebrewers only worry about two: OG and FG. There are more, and they tie in with how and why things happen the way they do in the brewing process.

There are "kettle gravities", which allow us to observe - and therefore tweak if we need to - what's going on in kettle. The pre-boil gravity helps us to predict if we're going to hit our post-boil gravity. Kettle gravity determines hops alpha-acid utilization, or the degree to which the alpha acids isomerize into solution in the wort.

It is a rule of thumb that the lower the kettle gravity, the better the utilization, though there is a lower limit to that rule. It appears that below a certain gravity utilization starts to drop off, indicating that the hops seem to want a certain amount of malt in solution. No one knows exactly why.

Here's a practical example:

Let's imagine a 5 gallons (US) batch of homebrew with a desired of OG 1.048 (12°P). We want that beer to have IBU of ~30.*

When you boil the entire volume of wort, plus an amount to account for losses during the boil, the IBU calculation does not change. Many homebrewers practice a smaller boil volume than the entire brew length, however, say 3 gallons for a 5 gallon batch. If you put all your extract in at the beginning, that can present utilization problems, because the kettle gravity will change if you keep the same amount of fermentables and reduce the volume.

In our example, I'm using 6 lbs of dry malt extract plus some specialty grain. If I add all my extract to a 3-gallon boil, my kettle gravity is 1.095 and the IBU imparted at the end of the boil will be ~19. If I keep 3 lbs of DME back to add late, my kettle gravity is reduced to 1.052 and the IBU will be ~30, right where I want it.

Here's a halfway decent visual reference:

As you can see, the Utilization % is influenced by two factors: Kettle gravity and time in boil. The higher the kettle gravity (represented by the numbers on the right of the chart marking lines), the lower the utilization %, and therefore the less bitterness gets in your wort.

Make sense?

Cheers,

Bob

* IBU prediction, even with an immense weight of brewing science behind it, is not a foolproof, absolutely accurate process. But since neither you nor I can taste the difference between 30 and 34 IBU, practically speaking it doesn't matter much. ;)
Click to expand...

That makes a lot of sense! Thank you!
 
Bob said:
If you add before the end of the boil time, you run into a Catch-22: in order to safely add LME and prevent scorching, you must switch off the heat. When you do that, the boil stops. Which means your 60-minute hops addition just became 45 minutes (or whatever), which screws up your IBU calculations.
It's a PITA to add late.
Click to expand...

I think you are over thinking it. Even if you turn off the heat to get the LME/DME into solution you ramp it back up to a boil for at least another 15 minutes. If anything, you might extract a bit more bitterness from the hops than if you did a 60 minute continuous boil and as you already mentioned you can't detect a difference of fewer than 5 IBUs or so... pretty much a non issue IMO.
 
IffyG said:
I think you are over thinking it. Even if you turn off the heat to get the LME/DME into solution you ramp it back up to a boil for at least another 15 minutes. If anything, you might extract a bit more bitterness from the hops than if you did a 60 minute continuous boil and as you already mentioned you can't detect a difference of fewer than 5 IBUs or so... pretty much a non issue IMO.
Click to expand...

My concern would be over-boiling the flavoring and aroma hops and completely knocking them out of the picture. I like the idea of extract addition at flameout- he's right that it will be well above pasteurizing temperatures for enough time to make sure the wort is appropriately sanitary.
 
This is why this site is so great! I had one question, that I thought was pretty simple, and have learned more then I would have ever though about asking. Thanks all for the insight.
 
daksin said:
My concern would be over-boiling the flavoring and aroma hops and completely knocking them out of the picture. I like the idea of extract addition at flameout- he's right that it will be well above pasteurizing temperatures for enough time to make sure the wort is appropriately sanitary.
Click to expand...

I guess it all depends on how your formulate your hop additions. For me, it's never a concern since I bitter at 60 minutes and then add flavor and aroma hops after the late extract addition.
 
I also notice a cleaner flavor (ie: no extract twang) said:
Sorry if this is slightly OT, but I've been wondering for a while. Is "twang" more noticeable in lighter bodied beers? I get a slightly off taste in the middle of my palate from my IPA/PA/wheat beers that I don't notice from my porters or stouts.
Click to expand...
 
To my palate, yes.

More flavorful beers tend to have more complicated ingredients lists, which tends to mask individual flavors. Darker beers like porter and stout also have ingredients which can have flavors similar to "twang".

But I wouldn't use "lighter-bodied" to describe what you mean. Not sure what I'd say, but "body" is only glancingly involved...Hmm.

Bob
 
OK from what I have gathered, here are the advantages to late addition of extract.

Improves hops utilization - Bob, Post #2
Reduce color darkening - Bob, Post #2
Cleaner flavor (ie: no extract twang) - CrookedTail, post #6

Now I'm going to throw the monkey wrench. (If this is off topic, I will gladly make it another thread)

I have heard that full boils also produce less twang, so which is it, or am I completely off base with this?

I'm not too concerned with hop utilization (I can always add more, I'm not brewing 10,000 gallons with a 3% margin on my profits) :)
And the truth is not too concerned with color, if it taste great, I'll drink it.:cross:
 
Another advantage (IMO particularly for those who are brewing on a stove top), is less sugary wort being evaporated and then condensing on the walls of your kitchen. Before I switched to late extract additions, I was wiping off thick syrup from my walls after a brew day with soapy water. Using late extract additions all it takes is a quick wipe down with a dry rag to clean it up.
 
IffyG said:
Another advantage (IMO particularly for those who are brewing on a stove top), is less sugary wort being evaporated and then condensing on the walls of your kitchen.
Click to expand...

What ?!!!

When you boil a sugar solution , what evaporates is H2O and volatile compounds .

Sugar does NOT evaporate !

Hector
 
Then explain the sugary substance that condenses on my walls only while I'm brewing...

Whatever it is, there is less of it when I do late extract additions.
 
My brewing buddies and I tried to do a late LME addition this weekend. It didn't go as we expected.

We were brewing a 10 gallon batch from two identical kits (NB Honey Brown Ale) and the kits came with 2 containers of LME (1 for each kit). We added the first container at beginning of boil and then added the second one at flameout, along with the 2 containers of honey for the batch. We stirred for a while and then added distilled water to bring the batch up to 10 gallons. Then we hooked up the CFC and hoses and opened up the spigot. What we thought was wort flowed through the clear hose to the chiller and then...nothing.

Minutes later, we finally figured out that it was mostly undissolved LME that was trying to get through my CFC. We closed the spigot, cleaned out the hoses and CFC, heated up the kettle for a few more minutes while stirring then tried again, with success.

After cleanup, we discovered that we had a goodly amount of scorching taking place under our built-in SS mesh screen that was fitted over our diptube.

So...two possibilities, I guess.

1) The LME just sank right down into our SS mesh screen and sat there, not being affected by the stirring taking place outside of the screen, waiting to be sucked up into the diptube.

2) We didn't stir long enough before adding the cold distilled water.

I think if we try this again, we'll probably add the last batch of LME 10-15 minutes before end of boil just to make sure the LME has had time to dissolve into the wort.
 
It'll still sink,that's the nature of the beast. It sounds like you're using an AG rig for extract. The screen can't hold it back,* it won't dissolve fast enough to keep it from doing it again.
 

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