Decoction Mash Video

Just for the heck of it yesterday I did a double decoction mash on my nut brown ale. I did a MUCH thicker decoction than I had any previous time and what do you know - I nailed my saccharification temperature perfectly! With all that extra grain in the decoction I also had a couple apartments around me come out and ask me what that amazing smell was.

Thanks Kaiser!

Did you tell them you were making magical marsh-mellow flavored rainbows and they couldn't come in to see? LOL, I tried a triple on my last ale, wow, very fragrant. I loved it, but I do wish I had a fume hood as the house smelled like it for two days. A double is probably all I will ever do again, but it was an experience.

Excellent videos, Kaiser. I saw this thread a few weeks ago, but was unable to view the videos. I'm glad that someone posted in this thread again and I was able to check it.

Great work as always - it has been added to my favorites.

instereo13 said:

One question: why do you do your iodine test on chalk?

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I find it easier to read, and it's not as messy as using a small dish. If you don't have chalk at hand, don't worry about it

bradsul said:

Thanks Kaiser!

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sweet video. i had done a single decoction about 2 years ago just to see what it was like and add some body to a porter, but after getting a refrigerator on craig's list for $40 bucks, i decided it was time to try the real thing.
gregory j. noonan's book brewing lager beer left me feeling adequately prepared, but the visual experience really drove it home for me. as a matter of fact, it made me so confident that i decided to jump in feet first and do two in one day. i was at it from 9am to 12:30am last night.
it was tough getting up for work this morning, but i forgot about it when i came home to a bohemian pilsner and a 100% munich southern german lager (octoberfest?) happily bubbling away at 52 deg. f.
i'm finally lagering!
thanks again.
by the way, your accent's fine.

Glad you liked it and welcome to the forum.

Kai

Now there is a trooper, two in one day. Man!!!!

I just picked up two upright freezers that can hold 6.5/7 gallon carboys one atop the other, or two buckets, or two 5gal carboys.

As soon as I can afford the dual stage controllers (it's in an uninsulated garage, so need it both ways, already have heat sources), I'll have lagering capability.

I can't wait to test it out this summer.



So, If I may ask, if you are using a system like a Brutus Ten type, or B3 sculpture, would it work to replace the normal boil kettle with another pot, and use that burner and pot for the decoction boils? You could then use the pumped temp-control for your mash tun and have one less thing to worry about. Except maybe that you'd return less of the hot decoction to raise temps (then adjust controller on mash sensor) and let more cool in the decoction kettle to return when it cools to the proper rest temp for that return. Does that make sense?

nathan said:

So, If I may ask, if you are using a system like a Brutus Ten type, or B3 sculpture, would it work to replace the normal boil kettle with another pot, and use that burner and pot for the decoction boils? You could then use the pumped temp-control for your mash tun and have one less thing to worry about. Except maybe that you'd return less of the hot decoction to raise temps (then adjust controller on mash sensor) and let more cool in the decoction kettle to return when it cools to the proper rest temp for that return. Does that make sense?

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Yes, that makes sense. You could also boil the decoction in the boil kettle, but it might be more awkward.

What does NOT work is running the liquid part (though the false bottom) into the boil kettle or a cooler, boiling what remains in the MLT and then returning the liquid path to the MLT. This will kill most (if not all) of the enzymes since you are lowering the temp of the decoction with the enzyme rich thin mash that you kept on the side as opposed to raising the temp of the enzyme rich mash with the decoction. You would have to scoop the decoction into the thin mash first to be able to use the fact that you can easily separate thin from thick with the false bottom.

Kai

Kai, So when a large German brewery does a mash in modern times and wants to make traditional Maibock with a decocted taste then what mash procedure do they use with the huge volumes of grain that they mash? It seems to me that it has to be a hands off type of mash.

If their brewhouse allows for decoction (separate mash boil kettle), they can easily do that. They let the mash settle and pump the desired volume of decoction from the bottom of the mash tun to the mash boil kettle.

Kai

Okay, so you have that layer of protein goo that settled on top of your mash in the video.

Would you sparge onto that? Spoon it off? Stir it up, then vorlauf and hope it all stayed behind?

Is it good to remove or do you lose something (FAN/lipids for yeast food, body, head retention?)

Nathan,

Don’t worry about that protein. I’ve just shown it as an FYI and there was even more after the first run-off. But that got mixed into the grains when I stirred in the sparge water. It’s the same stuff you leave behind in the boil kettle when you rack the wort into the fermenter.

Kai

I never realized there was so much of it.

nathan said:

I never realized there was so much of it.

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It's because you boil a part of the wort. The stuff you have in the lauter tun will be missing from the trub in your boil kettle.

Kai

Ich wollte nur sagen, danke schön für die ausgezeichnete Video! I have been wanting to make a classic Bamburg rauchbier for some time and the best recipe I found called for a double decoction. I read the steps in Palmer several times but watching you doing it made it crystal clear. And the accent and music were icing on the cake - took me back to my last Reise nach Bayern!

Bitte schoen.

Kai

damn.... lots of "love" goes into a decoction mash! Heh heh... start at 8am... hopefully finish before the sun goes down.

Don't know if it was mentioned already, but video 3 is saying it is no longer available.

It worked for me when I just tried it. Even after I logged out of Youtube. I'll check the links.

Kai

my decoction doesn't take all that much longer than a single infusion. I do double decoctions and push the whole mash time out to 90 minutes from the initial infusion. Cleanup is maybe a tad longer with the extra pots.

Anyway, an electrician finished wiring my smooth-top cooktop out in my garage (it was free, unused top of the line one also!). Now I'll infuse and decoct using that and then go to propane for the boil.

Just finished mashing my first Enhanced Triple Decoction... 104, (122,) 140, 158, 170. This video really helped. Hopefully the taste will be proportional to the time and effort put into this... my first Doppelbock.

Now that I know I can pull off a decoction mash, I know I will use it for my home-grown malt. Thanks Kaiser.

To do or not to do the decoction? Check this thread:

http://www.beertools.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=950

Back in 1989, I did a bunch of experiments with American and British fully modified malts in both infusion and decoction mash regemins as well as "fully modified" European malts (which are typically less modified than their British and American counterparts)and compared the results among 10 BJCP judges. All grists, hops and yeast used were the same with the exception being the base malts.

The concensus was that the technique was wasted on the British and American malts, but was noticable when used with the Euro. malts. We also mashed with undermodified malts: Budvar and Gamb. Czech Pilsen. Of course, these malts require decoction. The overall flavor favorites came from the Euro. and undermodified mashes.

Now the decision to decoct or not comes down to a law of diminishing returns.... were the favorites 50% better? NO ! More like 5-10% better. But the input labor and hassle was over 150% more! It is also messy and requires more equipment. Fun to play with, but not something I would do all the time !

Piotr said:

To do or not to do the decoction? Check this thread:

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You touched on one of the big debates in home brewing these days. Especially since the vast majority of German beers, that you can get here and are sold in Germany and not decocted anymore yet still ave that "German" taste.

My opinion is that every brewer should see for himself.

Kai

German beers take on a gourmet feeling and taste when decoction is used I think.

Do you sparge the decoction grists like any other AG method, using the ratio 2 quarters per pound ,or not?

DonArmando said:

Do you sparge the decoction grists like any other AG method, using the ratio 2 quarters per pound ,or not?

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The decoction process is separate from sparging so you would just use whatever your normal method is.

DonArmando said:

Do you sparge the decoction grists like any other AG method, using the ratio 2 quarters per pound ,or not?

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Yes, you sparge like any other AG method. Like Brad said, it is separate from the mashing itself. The amount of water needed for the sparge depends on your pre-boil volume target. Given than decoction mashes are generally thinner (3.5 - 4.5 l/kg or 1.75-2.25 qt/lb) I'd expect that you end up using less sparge water. One rule of thumb I read in an old German brewing text was that mashing uses 2/3 of the water needed for brewing and sparging the other 3rd.

Kai

Kaiser said:

Especially since the vast majority of German beers, that you can get here and are sold in Germany and not decocted anymore yet still ave that "German" taste.

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So what are they doing exactly? Plain ol' single infusion?... A step mash with roughly the same temperature schedules (to fit the malt, of course) as a decoction mash? Any special technique in the mash, lauter, or boil?

menschmaschine said:

So what are they doing exactly?

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This is the "workhorse" mash in German brewing today:

dough-in above 57C or directly at 62-63C
63C for 30 - 40 min (maltose rest)
(65 C for ~30 min if very high fermentability is desired)
68-72C for 20 - 60 min (dextrinization rest)
76-78C - mash-out.

The whole mash takes 90 - 120 min.

Kai

that protein sludge on top of the mash is freakin' crazy! I love the chalk/iodine test, what a great idea.

Kaiser said:

This is the "workhorse" mash in German brewing today:

dough-in above 57C or directly at 62-63C
63C for 30 - 40 min (maltose rest)
(65 C for ~30 min if very high fermentability is desired)
68-72C for 20 - 60 min (dextrinization rest)
76-78C - mash-out.

The whole mash takes 90 - 120 min.

Kai

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Thanks for that. In your experience, what is a typical water:grain ratio for a German brewery in a Pilsner or Helles?... and does it increase with the steps in the mash schedule?

menschmaschine said:

Thanks for that. In your experience, what is a typical water:grain ratio for a German brewery in a Pilsner or Helles?... and does it increase with the steps in the mash schedule?

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4-5 l/kg (2-2.5 qt/lb) and it doesn't change during mashing as direct heat is used to move between the rests.

Kai

Kaiser said:

4-5 l/kg (2-2.5 qt/lb) and it doesn't change during mashing as direct heat is used to move between the rests.

Kai

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Wow, that seems like a lot compared to what most homebrewers do, even when we do lagers. Is this common throughout German brewing, or do some regions/styles use a lower water:grain ratio?... like Alts or Bocks, for example.

menschmaschine said:

Wow, that seems like a lot compared to what most homebrewers do, even when we do lagers. Is this common throughout German brewing, or do some regions/styles use a lower water:grain ratio?... like Alts or Bocks, for example.

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Yes this is a common ratio for lighter beers. The lower amount of sparge water will also reduce the amount of tannins extracted during sparge. For dark beers the mash tickness may be as low as 3 - 3.5 l/kg (1.5 to 1.75 l/kg) but not thicker as they become difficult to pump and stir.

The latter is the main historical reson for thin mashes in German brewing. B/c of decoction, German brewhouses had to be able to pump the mash as opposed to British brewhouses which mashed and lautered in the same vessel.

Early American home brewing adopted that Britsh style of brewing as it is ideal for the approach of having a single unheated vessel for mashing and lautering. Then craftbrewers adoped this b/c it is easy to build and it is what they did as home brewers. And home brewers keep doing it (the thick mashes I mean) b/c craft brewers do it and many home brewing texts say that the ideal mash thickness is around 1.25 qt/lb.

I gave been saying for a while that, at least for German beers, you should get away from this one-mash-fits all approach that Jamil and Co. are teaching. A thin mash, up to 4.5 l/kg as long as it fits in your MLT and works for the size of beer your are making, may work much better. They are more easy to stir and may even improve efficiency if your efficiency is limited by conversion efficienct (i.e. the % of starch that is converted).

Kai

That's great info. Danke, Kai.

Kaiser said:

I gave been saying for a while that, at least for German beers, you should get away from this one-mash-fits all approach that Jamil and Co. are teaching. A thin mash, up to 4.5 l/kg as long as it fits in your MLT and works for the size of beer your are making, may work much better.

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I see one drawback: thin masch will produce less fermentable wort. I will be a problem in German Pils, which should be really dry.

Piotr said:

I see one drawback: thin masch will produce less fermentable wort. I will be a problem in German Pils, which should be really dry.

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Not in my experience. I get about 80-83% attenuation potential in my Pilsner mashes and could get more if I wanted to. In addition to that, in mash experiments I have not seen an attenuation difference between thick and thin mashes. A Pils should be mashed at 2 qt/lb or slightly above if you can.

Kai

Piotr said:

I see one drawback: thin masch will produce less fermentable wort. I will be a problem in German Pils, which should be really dry.

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Actually, I understand the opposite to be true. (Not necessarily from experience, but from text.) A thick mash is supposed to produce the best overall extraction, but a thin mash favors maltose, and therefore attenuation.

menschmaschine said:

A thick mash is supposed to produce the best overall extraction, but a thin mash favors maltose, and therefore attenuation.

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I heard different explanation - in thick mash b-amylase survives longer, so it can longer do the starch-cutting job.
This can be essential, my german pils I mashed 2.5 hours in 62-63*C, and didn't get full convertion, until I elevated temp to 68*C.