Why doesn't everyone just BIAB?

I am in the late stages of putting my 3 vessel system together. I have experience with BIAB and AG, but mostly I've been an extract brewer. Here are some of the reasons that I decided to go 3 v:

1) Flexibility - as stated before, batch sizes and recipes are move varied with 3v
2) Knowledge base/Recipes - more information in general for 3v
3) Handling - bag is hot, heavy, sticky
4) Durability - i know that people are getting a ton of use out of those bags, but still...
5) I like to design and build stuff - not saying that you cant be creative with BIAB systems, but there are more opportunities with 3 v. (is that an argument for 4+v?
6) I try to limit use of synthetic polymers as much as possible. Don't ask me about my silicone tubing.

Response to the OP points

clarity - I've seen some crystal clear beers with BIAB
extra trub - Basic Brewing Radio did a podcast on trub in the fermenter. The gist: trub in the fermenter is not a bad thing, and some preferred the flavor of the finished beer.
tradition - only in the last couple 100 years
cost & storage - BIAB wins hands down, but I have seen some pretty costly BIAB systems
time - if time is an issue, why not extract brew? I've made plenty of good beers w/extract.

In my opinion, BIAB is not a 1 vessel system. I'm not sure if 1 vessel can actually exist because of the mash. I'm not convinced that cleaning out the bag is less work than cleaning out a MT. I think we all agree that dealing with that bag is more of a hassle than a MT. A buddy of mine uses a separate vessel for dunk sparge. There's a 3 vessel BIAB system.

A system is like a recipe. You can customize it to your own taste.

Great taste!

Less filling!

;-)

I'll never BIAB in the traditional sense of dropping a nylon bag into the boil kettle. If I ever do it, it's going to be a different take on the speidelwhatever using a mash basket rather than a bag which will be lifted with a power winch. The ultimate hurdle is to let go of efficiency expectations.

I do think winching up all the grain and flipping the basket over into a wheeled garbage can does sound better than scooping all the grain out and taking my false bottom apart.

In summary, I'm not fully on either side of this debate at the moment. If I can make 6-12 gallon batches of up to 1.100 wort, holding a solid mash temp, effectively separating the wort from the spent grist, and make cleanup easier, right... that's the system for me.

Sometimes BIAB, sometimes three vessel.

I only BIAB right now. When I made the switch from extract to all grain last summer it seemed the most logical root to go; I had all the equipment I needed sans a nylon bag.

I don't think clean up is bad, I just put the sack into several grocery bags, turn it upside down to empty the grain and toss the tied bags into the neighbors yard.

Holding mash temp isn't too tough either. I wrap the kettle in towels and ducting insulation. It can hold a steady temperature for up to 2 hours in my experience.

The major draw back I face on a regular basis is big beers. 10lbs of grain puts a lot of strain on that nylon sack when I left it soaking wet from the kettle. If I want to make a huge gravity beer with my current setup I need to go partial mash.

I think the main reason most people don't use the BIAB method is because you have to take in to consideration the amount of grains in your grain bag that takes away from the water in the pot which effects your efficiency. Plus I think it just another name for partial mash

Homercidal said:

Pretty hard to recirculate a BIAB system...

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I was just doing this in my last brew. As long as your bag is off the bottom, like in a basket. I drain out the diptube and out the ball valve into my pump, and run a hose back to the top. Worked out just fine. You can even direct fire during the recirc.

adixon3 said:

I think the main reason most people don't use the BIAB method is because you have to take in to consideration the amount of grains in your grain bag that takes away from the water in the pot which effects your efficiency. Plus I think it just another name for partial mash

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Grain absorption is accounted for on any all grain method. It's not any.different if you mash in at 2 quarts per lb than 1.25. You can sparge your grain bag if you want. Think of the bag as a different manifold/false bottom that you can lift out and drain.

It's certainly not a partial mash since BIAB, like any all grain method, attempts to obtain all of its gravity points via mashing grains. Partial mashing would require some liquid or dry malt extract to get your total gravity.

Bradinator said:

The major draw back I face on a regular basis is big beers. 10lbs of grain puts a lot of strain on that nylon sack when I left it soaking wet from the kettle. If I want to make a huge gravity beer with my current setup I need to go partial mash.

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I've done grain bills as big as 22#. I have a double layered bag which helps. What I struggle with is getting the wet bag out of my keggle opening. Switching to a straight side

Love BIAB.

I definitely see pros/cons to both sides, esp with the biggest con of BIAB being that anything much above 10 gal (ish) can get pretty heavy/dangerous filled with 150°+ water.

For me, I love brewing 2.5 gal batches. It's cheaper, lends itself to more creativity, and any batches that don't come out just right, it's a lot easier to just fix the issue and rebrew.

I am tired of the good old boys looking down on it though, esp w/ comments like, "It's a great way to get into AG brewing." From all of the research I've done and experience I've had with the many different types of systems, BIAB is just as good as anything else for anything (yes, ANYTHING) w/in a 5 gal batch size.

adixon3 said:

I think the main reason most people don't use the BIAB method is because you have to take in to consideration the amount of grains in your grain bag that takes away from the water in the pot which effects your efficiency. Plus I think it just another name for partial mash

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Somebody already rebuked your ridiculous comment on grain water absorption, and now I'll comment on your partial mash claim. What does the word partial mean? It means you only do a piece of something. So a partial mash means that you only mash a portion of the fermentables that will be used, and the rest comes from extract. BIAB is a full mash method, all fermentables come from mashing.

usfmikeb said:

Somebody already rebuked your ridiculous comment on grain water absorption, and now I'll comment on your partial mash claim. What does the word partial mean? It means you only do a piece of something. So a partial mash means that you only mash a portion of the fermentables that will be used, and the rest comes from extract. BIAB is a full mash method, all fermentables come from mashing.

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Partial is also a misnomer. You are mashing the entire amount of grains that need mashing, just a smaller amount of them. So, in essence, it is a mini-mash. I never understood the whole 'partial' name. That would mean you were only mashing a portion of the mashable grains. But I digress...

I've only BIABed once for a small batch. It is nice when making small batches. Otherwise I use the equipment I've had for years. Not to mention that I often brew double batches, or back to back, and it would not work FOR ME to use BIAB for that.

suprchunk said:

Partial is also a misnomer. You are mashing the entire amount of grains that need mashing, just a smaller amount of them. So, in essence, it is a mini-mash. I never understood the whole 'partial' name. That would mean you were only mashing a portion of the mashable grains. But I digress...

I've only BIABed once for a small batch. It is nice when making small batches. Otherwise I use the equipment I've had for years. Not to mention that I often brew double batches, or back to back, and it would not work FOR ME to use BIAB for that.

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IMO, you are not mashing a different amount of grain with BIAB. You use the same amount. The recipes for 5 gallon batches are valid whether you use a cooler/3 vessel system, a BIAB, or any other method for that matter.

I believe that the definition of a mini-mash is to increase the amount of grain used in an extract-only recipe while still including a few pounds of extract. Using BIAB doesn't automatically make it a mini-mash.

But you do have a valid point that BIAB isn't the best option for double batches or back to back batches.

Just to give a different perspective...
From my understanding BIAB was conceived here in Australia after home brewers first became aware of the Braumeister. They wanted a cheaper alternative of mashing in a similar fashion. A lot of the older brewers I've met here still prefer the traditional 3v system.
But for me BIAB was born out of necessity. When I was still living in the US, buying a 48 quart cooler and the bits needed for a ball valve and stainless steel braid was cheap. Also large pots and turkey fryers are dirt cheap in the US. But here, an equivalent sized cooler would sell for $200+ and similar propane burner costs $170. As a poor grad student, I can't afford a 3 vessel system here.
But now after I've seen how cheap and easy it is to make award winning beer with BIAB and no-chill, I don't know if I'll ever go back to a traditional system. One day when I do have a larger budget, I think I'd rather spend my money on other things (conicals, walk in cool room, etc.) rather than the method in which I make barley sugar-water.

And for the curious, no-chill was implemented because of the droughts and subsequent water restrictions we get here.

adixon3 said:

I think the main reason most people don't use the BIAB method is because you have to take in to consideration the amount of grains in your grain bag that takes away from the water in the pot which effects your efficiency. Plus I think it just another name for partial mash

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Efficiency in a no-sparge system (regardless of the use of a bag) is generally lower but it's not that much lower than a batch sparge system. It just has to be accounted for and accepted. In a true "bag" brew, the squeezing action of just lifting the bag actually drains more wort out than if it were in a static tun over a false bottom.

In my daydreaming about building a system like this, I'd have a heavy pressure plate that would be placed on the mash as I hoist the basket up.


The partial mash thing is just false. Partial mash means that your total fermentables only comes "partially" from a grain mash. This is no-sparge all grain brewing.

Bobby_M said:

In a true "bag" brew, the squeezing action of just lifting the bag actually drains more wort out than if it were in a static tun over a false bottom.

In my daydreaming about building a system like this, I'd have a heavy pressure plate that would be placed on the mash as I hoist the basket up.

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Bobby this is completely accurate. I have had to adjust Beer Smith to account for the squeezing action in order to hit my pre-boil volume mark. I found I ended up with almost a gallon extra wort after squeezing the bag using the default value. My Grain Absorption rate is currently set to 0.0150 in Beer Smith. Significatly lower then the default 0.5xx.

I have also started trying to come up with a solution to more easily press the grains. Currently a use a 4.5 gallon pot with steamer tray and a pot lid to squeeze the bag.

Bobby_M said:

In my daydreaming about building a system like this, I'd have a heavy pressure plate that would be placed on the mash as I hoist the basket up.

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i would have two giant logs swing together at the same time- just like the ewoks did to that walker in return of the jedi. messy- maybe- but super rad.

Ive seen recirculation of the wort mentioned in this thread several times .... is that done to somehow make better wort? Is it to increase efficiency? ... sorry for the ignorant question ... I'm still pretty new and I really don't know.

cadarnell said:

Ive seen recirculation of the wort mentioned in this thread several times .... is that done to somehow make better wort? Is it to increase efficiency? ... sorry for the ignorant question ... I'm still pretty new and I really don't know.

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Whirlpooling helps to cool, separate the solids left from the hops and hotbreak, and aerate(?).

The main reason out of those 3 is to separate the solids from the rest of your beer so your beer runs as clear as possible into your fermentor.

arg said:

All good points, and with that considered I only have one last thing to put into this conversation.

I do a full-volume BIAB. What does that do to the pH? I know that going out of the usual water to grist ratio should have an effect on the pH and thus tannin extraction, among other things. If I brew a beer with a typical 1.3 ratio and another with the BIAB full-volume method and they are perceivably the same after fermentation, where does that leave us?

At what point does the water to grist ratio become an essential factor in getting the mash just right? If on a low OG, 5 gallon batch the differences aren't noticable, that doesn't necessarily mean they aren't there.

Is it just a factor of scale that allows us not to worry so much about that issue?

Edit: I'm thinking about what was said in this thread, particularly: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/mash-ph-full-volume-no-sparge-mash-146961/

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I've also wondered about the effects of a thinner mash on pH and final product. Anyone have any thoughts or experience with this?

H-ost said:

Whirlpooling helps to cool, separate the solids left from the hops and hotbreak, and aerate(?).

The main reason out of those 3 is to separate the solids from the rest of your beer so your beer runs as clear as possible into your fermentor.

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When the previous poster asked about recirculation, I don't think you understood.
Recirculation is a process where the wort is pumped out of the kettle, usually through a valve near the bottom of the pot, and recirculated to the top of the kettle during the mash. I have not done this myself, but I believe it is done to improve the efficiency since the wort is continuously flowing through the wort. Makes sense, but you'd need a kettle with a valve and a pump.
And yes, it can be done with BIAB too.

chalkdust41485 said:

When the previous poster asked about recirculation, I don't think you understood.
Recirculation is a process where the wort is pumped out of the kettle, usually through a valve near the bottom of the pot, and recirculated to the top of the kettle during the mash. I have not done this myself, but I believe it is done to improve the efficiency since the wort is continuously flowing through the wort. Makes sense, but you'd need a kettle with a valve and a pump.
And yes, it can be done with BIAB too.

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So recirculating means moving the wort through the grains? Wouldn't that be similar to stirring the mash? I read that stirring during the mash doesn't really improve efficiency though? ....sorry still just trying to understand if all .... if it is just to improve efficiency then I don't really think I need to do it .... I am happy with what I am getting .... sorry to the OP ... I know I am off topic here .... but we are still talking about beer so cheers all

cadarnell said:

So recirculating means moving the wort through the grains? Wouldn't that be similar to stirring the mash? I read that stirring during the mash doesn't really improve efficiency though? ....sorry still just trying to understand if all .... if it is just to improve efficiency then I don't really think I need to do it .... I am happy with what I am getting .... sorry to the OP ... I know I am off topic here .... but we are still talking about beer so cheers all

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Perfectly fine with me. To answer your question: yes, it basically is the same. But with the pump, it's the hands-off, automated way of doing it. There's other things that can be added to it also like a way to heat the mash that you are extracting to keep the wort a constant temperature, but that basically turns the setup into a HERMs system. Personally, I like the idea of a HERMs setup if I had to go bigger. But for now, BIAB works for me and I don't think I need the extra efficiency from a recirculating system -- I'll just sparge a little...

The only reason to recirculate a mash for the entire rest period is if you're applying heat somewhere and want to keep the whole mash homogeneous. Sure, there are side benefits like really really clear wort, but it wouldn't be a reason to run a pump for 60 minutes.

I'd called a HERMS/RIMS BIAB and "evolved" system but certainly not necessary.

Bobby_M said:

I really do like the idea of a single vessel electric BIAB with an overhead winch to lift the basket.

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A winch? A winch is really easier than just making a cooler out of a $20 mash tun? Not for me, man. I have no doubt that BIAB works. I also have no doubt that I have no interest in it.

Home brewing is a hobby, right? Hobbies are for fun. It's the process, and the doing, and the learning, and the experimentation, and the amusement. It's not necessarily about the end result. If we just wanted to have a bunch of beer on hand, we could drive down to BevMo and get a bunch of bottles or kegs filled with whatever beer we desire.

Whatever method of making beer is fun for you, whether it's 3-stage or BIAB , that's the best method.

Currently, I BIAB because I'm a cheap bastard. Making tasty beer with whatever equipment is on hand just kind of hits the pleasure centers of my brain.

chalkdust41485 said:

"If it's so easy, why doesn't everyone just BIAB?"

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I guess the main reason why I don't is because BIAB isn't easy. I did a few BIAB batches when I first moved to all grain, and I could not keep the mash temperature close to the target for the life of me. I hated sitting there fiddling with the stove every couple of minutes for the hour mash because the mash temp would drop so fast, and having pull the pot off the coil every now and then if it got too hot. Maybe it's easier on a gas stove, but to me it just isn't worth it on an electric stove.

Now that I use a mash tun, I heat my water, throw it in with the grain, and go have a beer and read HBT or BA forums for an hour. Life is so much better

I don't BIAB because I already make good beer with my 10 gallon cooler MLT set up. Why try to "fix" something that ain't broken?

I feel like we get one of these soapbox BIAB threads every few months or so. If you make good beer, whatever the process, who gives two craps on how it was made? Just enjoy what's in your glass and be done with it. My friend brews with extract and he makes excellent beer. Do I look down on his beer just because I brew all grain and my beer should be inherently "better?" Should that even be a question?

Should you even be asking why people do what they do on brew day? I'd rather be asking if they want to sit down and try each others homebrews one afternoon. If you make good beer, there shouldn't be any reason to justify what you do on brew day.

arg said:

Hah. Distort reality? Sorry if that doesn't meet your expectations. I'm just speaking from personal experience. I've had 8 hour brew days using my mash tun / turkey fryer combo. That means setting up, gathering materials, cooling, pitching, oxygenation, washing, drying and storing. These things add up, especially if you are doing a recipe with an extended mash, longer boil, etc.

In fact, that's why I used to started at 9AM every time I brewed. So that I might have time to do something else with my day. Can you bring that time down? Sure, but I don't like stopping half way through anything (clean up) nor do I like rushing around like a mad man trying to keep on top of everything. Mistakes get made, especially if I'm trying to enjoy my brew day.

BIAB allows for a quick, relaxed brew day. The "traditional method" involves far more equipment that all needs to be washed before and after use, extending the time from start to finish. That's my experience, and I reported as such.

I roll my eyes back at you, sir.

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I think many and most AG brewers on three pot systems can crank out brew days between 4-5 hours tops depending on boil and mash time, if they are doing a decoction, etc. I think the only thing that made your brew day 8 hours was you, not the equipment.

phenry said:

I feel like we get one of these soapbox BIAB threads every few months or so. If you make good beer, whatever the process, who gives two craps on how it was made? Just enjoy what's in your glass and be done with it.

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+1, including my statement below...

I consider BIAB a gateway brewing technique. Sooner or later it will lead to a 3 pot rig

BIAB is a great way to get started with AG with a minimal investment in additional equipment for most. I tried it. I made a couple good batches of beer then moved on and built a mashtun and bought a turkey fryer. I prefer my current set up. It allows me to make higher gravity beers without having to lift a heavy bag of wet grains and worry about the bag splitting (yes I had a bag split on me......it was a serious mess). As an added bonus I go from the mashtun to boil in less than 10 minutes on the turkey fryer VS 40+ minutes on my electric stove. Turkey fryer with pot plus a 10 gallon mashtun cost me around $100. Both have paid for themselves 10x over when factoring in the amount of time I have saved. From start to finish including clean up If I am organized I am able to brew a batch in 3.5 hours.

What?!?! Did I read that correctly? 8 hour brew day? Biab usually took me around 3-4 hours. Mash tun AG day takes about an hour longer but I can do more grains. Biab bag gets a little heavy and need a larger boil kettle.
I used biab to get into AG.

BIAB got me into AG but I'll never go back. It's a royal pain unless you do a lift/winch system, and I always had a bit of trouble with my temperatures also. If I was going to incorporate a lift mechanism and pump into a BIAB rig I'd rather just ditch BIAB altogether and go to a 2 or 3 vessel system.

phenry said:

I don't BIAB because I already make good beer with my 10 gallon cooler MLT set up. Why try to "fix" something that ain't broken?

I feel like we get one of these soapbox BIAB threads every few months or so. If you make good beer, whatever the process, who gives two craps on how it was made? Just enjoy what's in your glass and be done with it. My friend brews with extract and he makes excellent beer. Do I look down on his beer just because I brew all grain and my beer should be inherently "better?" Should that even be a question?

Should you even be asking why people do what they do on brew day? I'd rather be asking if they want to sit down and try each others homebrews one afternoon. If you make good beer, there shouldn't be any reason to justify what you do on brew day.

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+1

Totally agree. Both ways take grain, extract sugar from them and are used in making wort, then finally delicious beer. Everyone has their own setup they developed that works for their situation.

And anyways, we could totally be devoting thread posts to something way more constructive, such as ragging on extract brewers. THE TRUE ENEMY.

Denny said:

A winch? A winch is really easier than just making a cooler out of a $20 mash tun? Not for me, man. I have no doubt that BIAB works. I also have no doubt that I have no interest in it.

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No, for sure just about every brewing setup is more complicated and therefore not as easy and simple as pouring into a cooler mash tun. There is no doubt that amazing beer can be crafted with a single pot and a cooler mash tun but there are plenty of reasons to depart from simple. It's probably just the tinkerer in me. It's just as important to me in the hobby as the beer is.

When I compared a single vessel with a mash basket winch as simple setup, it was in contrast to a two vessel system with a HERMS coil, etc. not in comparison to all possible brewing configurations.

Got it, Bobby, and I hope it didn't sound like I was hassling you. Personally, I hate the equipment building process and feel it just takes time away from brewing. But I'm glad there are people like you who don't feel that way....otherwise I couldn't use the killer sight glass you build.

Bradinator said:

+1

Totally agree. Both ways take grain, extract sugar from them and are used in making wort, then finally delicious beer. Everyone has their own setup they developed that works for their situation.

And anyways, we could totally be devoting thread posts to something way more constructive, such as ragging on extract brewers. THE TRUE ENEMY.

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Agree 150% there... Especially about extract brewers... I know you have to start someplace, but come on people... heh I went all grain within about two months of starting to brew...

If I'm not brewing, thinking about brewing (either a past batch, or coming one), working on a recipe, or coming up with some new hardware (or altering something that already exists) then I'm either drinking, or sleeping... Even then, I'm probably dreaming about brewing related things... :rockin: Obsessed?? Nahhhhhh

I've been brewing for 17 years and used to fly sparge. Now, I only do BIAB exclusively. It's easier and faster and produces great tasting beer. It's all personal preference though. Some people just don't like it. I begrudge no one.

Domes said:

I've been brewing for 17 years and used to fly sparge. Now, I only do BIAB exclusively. It's easier and faster and produces great tasting beer. It's all personal preference though. Some people just don't like it. I begrudge no one.

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Agreement.

Bobby_M said:

No, for sure just about every brewing setup is more complicated and therefore not as easy and simple as pouring into a cooler mash tun. There is no doubt that amazing beer can be crafted with a single pot and a cooler mash tun but there are plenty of reasons to depart from simple. It's probably just the tinkerer in me. It's just as important to me in the hobby as the beer is.

When I compared a single vessel with a mash basket winch as simple setup, it was in contrast to a two vessel system with a HERMS coil, etc. not in comparison to all possible brewing configurations.

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i feel the exact same way. i am a 3 vessel brewer with pump and whatbot.

because i love the equipment/tinkering aspect of this hobby, i may even try BIAB to see what all the fuss is about. Manual comealong winches are relatively cheap at harbor freight, i already have some so all i need is a bag lol.

i read thru this thread, and my response is that i think new all grain brewers are going to be doing BIAB more and more. In the meantime you wont see many existin 3 vessel brewers converting, because most of those brewers have invested a lot of time, money, and confidence in their systems.

also - someone said something along the lines of "well thats not how the pro's do it". And when I read that i started day dreaming of ways to do large scale BIAB. it would be cool and look so ridiculous haha

As I was brewing my last beer I thought of another reason I went from a cooler mash tun back to a bag .... I nail and hold my temps much better in my BK .... the cooler I had held temps pretty well but I did always lose a couple degrees over an hour ..... in the bag however I just set the whole thing in my oven set on keep warm and I never lose or gain anything ..... I'm always right where I started .... that's just my personal experience ...... I'm sure my cooler could have been a little better quality and held the temps better .... it was an igloo cube style 48 qt.