batch sparge

So today is brew day and I am going to be batch spargeing. After all the reading on I the one inconsistencie I Coe. Across is whether there should be a rest between first running sparge and second running. Any thought?

I stir every running very well but I don't rest. I just did a big beer last night (1.082) and my efficiency was spot on as usual. In my system, it's actually a better/faster/less_compact lauter if I don't allow the grains to settle down prior to opening the valve.

Any time you add batch sparge water you'll need to let it rest for 10 minutes or so, because the grain bed will need to settle again. You'll obviously have to vorlauf again after that 10 minutes.

I add the water to the mash tun, stir, let set 10 to 15 minutes, quick vorlauf, and drain. Works great every time.

stpug said:

I stir every running very well but I don't rest. I just did a big beer last night (1.082) and my efficiency was spot on as usual. In my system, it's actually a better/faster/less_compact lauter if I don't allow the grains to settle down prior to opening the valve.

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How do you get it to run clear after that?

FastTalker said:

Any time you add batch sparge water you'll need to let it rest for 10 minutes or so, because the grain bed will need to settle again. You'll obviously have to vorlauf again after that 10 minutes.

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I've read many times no rest is needed when spargimg. What I have read, and do, is stir, stir and stir some more, then vorlouf.

FastTalker said:

Any time you add batch sparge water you'll need to let it rest for 10 minutes or so, because the grain bed will need to settle again. You'll obviously have to vorlauf again after that 10 minutes.

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No, there's no requirement that dictates you must let it rest. You can let it rest if you like, if that helps your system. It actually makes my system more prone to a compact grainbed so I do not let it rest. The benefits for me are less compact grainbed and time savings.

FastTalker said:

How do you get it to run clear after that?

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Vorlauf.

See the disagreement here shows what I keep running into. And I can see both sides. Lol.

exc503 said:

See the disagreement here shows what I keep running into. And I can see both sides. Lol.

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Then the answer to your question is that it doesn't matter. What ever works better for you.

FastTalker said:

Then the answer to your question is that it doesn't matter. What ever works better for you.

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^^What FastTalker said.

Everyone's system has its own nuances that you must figure out and work with. The only way to know which works better for you is to try both ways and make a decision. That's part of the fun of this hobby, IMO.

arborman said:

I've read many times no rest is needed when spargimg. What I have read, and do, is stir, stir and stir some more, then vorlouf.

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Same here. I figure the vorlauf speeds up the clearing. As in starts pulling water out and drawing the particles into the grain bed, which is the end goal

I ended up going with a 10 minute rest. Thanks for the input.

exc503 said:

So today is brew day and I am going to be batch spargeing. After all the reading on I the one inconsistencie I Coe. Across is whether there should be a rest between first running sparge and second running. Any thought?

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No need. I've experimented with this dozens and dozens of tomes. Conversion is finished at that point, so you gain nothing by letting it sit. See www.dennybrew.com for details.

FastTalker said:

Any time you add batch sparge water you'll need to let it rest for 10 minutes or so, because the grain bed will need to settle again. You'll obviously have to vorlauf again after that 10 minutes.

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Sorry, not so. The grain bed will set during vorlauf.

OK, mea culpa...my original batch sparging article seems to be source of much of this confusion. FTR, here's the story..

I learned batch sparging from the original Ken Schwartz NHC paper 15+ years ago. Ken advocated letting the mash sit for 10 min, after adding the sparge water, and since I didn't know any better, I repeated that when I set up my web page and wrote about batch sparging for BYO. Over the years, I started thinking about it and decided I couldn't see why it would be necessary. I started doing some testing and over the course of maybe 30 batches done each way, I concluded that there was absolutely nothing to be gained by letting the sparge water sit. It effected neither my OG or runoff. I hate wasting time, so I stopped letting the sparge water sit and rewrote my web page. Unfortunately, by that time "let the sparge water sit for 10 min." had entered brewing lore.

The bottom line is that unless you have lautering issues that make that 10 min. rest necessary (and if you do, I'd suggest attacking that problem instead!), just stir in the sparge water, vorlauf, and run off. For more detail, see www.dennybrew.com .

Denny said:

OK, mea culpa...my original batch sparging article seems to be source of much of this confusion. FTR, here's the story.. I learned batch sparging from the original Ken Schwartz NHC paper 15+ years ago. Ken advocated letting the mash sit for 10 min, after adding the sparge water, and since I didn't know any better, I repeated that when I set up my web page and wrote about batch sparging for BYO. Over the years, I started thinking about it and decided I couldn't see why it would be necessary. I started doing some testing and over the course of maybe 30 batches done each way, I concluded that there was absolutely nothing to be gained by letting the sparge water sit. It effected neither my OG or runoff. I hate wasting time, so I stopped letting the sparge water sit and rewrote my web page. Unfortunately, by that time "let the sparge water sit for 10 min." had entered brewing lore. The bottom line is that unless you have lautering issues that make that 10 min. rest necessary (and if you do, I'd suggest attacking that problem instead!), just stir in the sparge water, vorlauf, and run off. For more detail, see www.dennybrew.com .

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Just started all grain my self. Thanks for that!

Denny said:

Sorry, not so. The grain bed will set during vorlauf.

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I'm going to go out on limb and say that you have to vorlauf for a longer period of time if you don't let it settle first. I've tried to rush a batch sparge and had significantly cloudier wort than if I had let it set the ten minutes like I usually do.

When you dump water in the mash and stir there is no longer a grain bed to filter the wort. At that point you are just depending on your false bottom, manifold, bazooka screen, etc.

Again, it will probably just depend on the system.

FastTalker said:

I'm going to go out on limb and say that you have to vorlauf for a longer period of time if you don't let it settle first. I've tried to rush a batch sparge and had significantly cloudier wort than if I had let it set the ten minutes like I usually do.

When you dump water in the mash and stir there is no longer a grain bed to filter the wort. At that point you are just depending on your false bottom, manifold, bazooka screen, etc.

Again, it will probably just depend on the system.

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I vorlauf 1-2 qt. Never takes more than 2 min. I almost always get crystal clear wort that you could read a newspaper through. Even if I don't, it has no impact in the finished beer.

I was going to say, I wonder how we might all judge clarity a little differently. I've used a braid for a number of years now and I always feel like it takes me quite a bit more than a quart or two to clear. Perhaps differences between the braids and crush might account for that as well.

jsguitar said:

I was going to say, I wonder how we might all judge clarity a little differently. I've used a braid for a number of years now and I always feel like it takes me quite a bit more than a quart or two to clear. Perhaps differences between the braids and crush might account for that as well.

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I use a standard faucet supply line braid. Lasco part # 10-0121. The me, clear means free of chunks. It doesn't have to be clear enough to read a paper through, although it usually is. Cloudy runoff makes no difference in the taste or appearance of the finished beer.

Denny said:

I use a standard faucet supply line braid. Lasco part # 10-0121. The me, clear means free of chunks. It doesn't have to be clear enough to read a paper through, although it usually is. Cloudy runoff makes no difference in the taste or appearance of the finished beer.

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I suppose then that I've probably been shooting for more clarity than I really need. Good to know.

Denny said:

I use a standard faucet supply line braid. Lasco part # 10-0121. The me, clear means free of chunks. It doesn't have to be clear enough to read a paper through, although it usually is. Cloudy runoff makes no difference in the taste or appearance of the finished beer.

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I recently moved to batch sparging and also don't waste my time with the rest. Heck, I haven't even bothered to vorlauf either. My false bottom works so well, I still don't get any grain in the kettle. Yeah the runoff is cloudy, but with the Irish moss and 1 week cold crash before kegging, I get crystal clear beer in my glass with no issues.

Cheers!

I've received an amazing gift today. The gift of time.

I've been doing a two-part batch sparge and letting the sparge rest for 15 minutes each time. I always thought this was necessary to let all the sugar get in solution. After reading this, I'm going to just stir and vorlauf and get a half hour back on my brew day.

Thanks, Denny.

exc503 said:

So today is brew day and I am going to be batch spargeing. After all the reading on I the one inconsistencie I Coe. Across is whether there should be a rest between first running sparge and second running. Any thought?

Click to expand...

I'd say let it rest at least 10 minutes to let the grain be settle back down. I don't mix it up during the batch sparge. Just pour it in and let it settle for 10 minutes.

jrc64 said:

I don't mix it up during the batch sparge. Just pour it in and let it settle for 10 minutes.

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Please tell me you're trolling?

jrc64 said:

I'd say let it rest at least 10 minutes to let the grain be settle back down. I don't mix it up during the batch sparge. Just pour it in and let it settle for 10 minutes.

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I'd say if your not mixing at all while batch spraging then your missing out on some of the converted sugars. Just a thought though....

And BTW, I've read your write up Denny on batch sparging a number of times. Seeing that you actually post on here, I must say it took me by surprise. Almost like being in the presents of one of the greats

shawnbou said:

I've received an amazing gift today. The gift of time.

I've been doing a two-part batch sparge and letting the sparge rest for 15 minutes each time. I always thought this was necessary to let all the sugar get in solution. After reading this, I'm going to just stir and vorlauf and get a half hour back on my brew day.

Thanks, Denny.

Click to expand...

Save yourself even more time...there's no need to do 2 sparges if you can fit in all the water at once.

rgauthier20420 said:

I'd say if your not mixing at all while batch spraging then your missing out on some of the converted sugars. Just a thought though....

And BTW, I've read your write up Denny on batch sparging a number of times. Seeing that you actually post on here, I must say it took me by surprise. Almost like being in the presents of one of the greats

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Uh, thanks for the kind words, but I'm just a home brewer like everybody else here. Maybe I've brewed more batches and done more experiments, but we're all in this together.

Does letting it rest increase efficiency of sugar and protein extraction? Cuz I would definitely shorten my rest period (10-15min now) to save some more time if it doesn't matter.

arborman said:

I've read many times no rest is needed when spargimg. What I have read, and do, is stir, stir and stir some more, then vorlouf.

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That's what I do.

FastTalker said:

I'm going to go out on limb and say that you have to vorlauf for a longer period of time if you don't let it settle first. I've tried to rush a batch sparge and had significantly cloudier wort than if I had let it set the ten minutes like I usually do.

When you dump water in the mash and stir there is no longer a grain bed to filter the wort. At that point you are just depending on your false bottom, manifold, bazooka screen, etc.

Again, it will probably just depend on the system.

Click to expand...

If you need to vorlauf more than a couple of quarts, there is something not right with the false bottom/braid/whatever separation medium. I do 10 gallon batches, and never need to vorlauf more than two quarts, even with a very fine crush.

Speedbird said:

Does letting it rest increase efficiency of sugar and protein extraction? Cuz I would definitely shorten my rest period (10-15min now) to save some more time if it doesn't matter.

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No.

You want to convert the starches to fermentable sugars, and that happens during the mash. During the sparge, you rinse those sugars away from the grain. If there is any efficiency gain by resting during the sparge, then there is a problem somewhere (and not with the sparge).

what if you don't vorlauf? i am going to try using a paint strainer bag to clear out my trub and hops and really don't see the need to vorlauf with it?

Yooper said:

No. You want to convert the starches to fermentable sugars, and that happens during the mash. During the sparge, you rinse those sugars away from the grain. If there is any efficiency gain by resting during the sparge, then there is a problem somewhere (and not with the sparge).

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Thanks for the info! That will save me some time. Sounds like i just need to stir for a few minutes when i sparge then vorlauf and drain.

From what I've read on this forum and from my own experience I doubt it really matters all that much. I drain off my first runnings, add the sparge water, stir and let it set for 15 minutes, vorlouf and drain it off. Efficiency is good, beer is good. Happy camper.

Didn't read any responses. Here's what you do.

Add sparge water.
Stir 80 times. No more, no less.
Start draining in to a pitcher.
Pour 1 or 2 pitchers back in to fermenter. Same as you did for first runnings.
It'll be clear now. Use that.

I've been drinking. Cheers.

Speedbird said:

Does letting it rest increase efficiency of sugar and protein extraction? Cuz I would definitely shorten my rest period (10-15min now) to save some more time if it doesn't matter.

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Nope, it doesn't. By the time you sparge, all of that should have already happened. I've tested it dozens of times and seen no difference.

Puddlethumper said:

From what I've read on this forum and from my own experience I doubt it really matters all that much. I drain off my first runnings, add the sparge water, stir and let it set for 15 minutes, vorlouf and drain it off. Efficiency is good, beer is good. Happy camper.

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Your method is certainly not hurting anything. You're just spending time that you don't need to spend.

Conflict, conflict, conflict. J/K. My mash tun is a 22 qt pot, my lauter tun is a Zapap bucket system to lauter/ sparge. I am stiill a new brewer with less than 20 batches under my belt, and am I still my own worst critic. For my pieced together system, I didn't start getting good O.G. numbers, until I took more time to vorlaugh, and addition of sparge water let go for 10 minutes.

MindenMan said:

Conflict, conflict, conflict. J/K. My mash tun is a 22 qt pot, my lauter tun is a Zapap bucket system to lauter/ sparge. I am stiill a new brewer with less than 20 batches under my belt, and am I still my own worst critic. For my pieced together system, I didn't start getting good O.G. numbers, until I took more time to vorlaugh, and addition of sparge water let go for 10 minutes.

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My guess is that you weren't getting full conversion in the mash. Otherwise, you would not see an increase in efficiency with an increased sparge time. You can check that by using this...

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.ph..._Efficiency#Determining_Conversion_Efficiency

Yooper said:

If you need to vorlauf more than a couple of quarts, there is something not right with the false bottom/braid/whatever separation medium. I do 10 gallon batches, and never need to vorlauf more than two quarts, even with a very fine crush.

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I never said I vorlauf more than a couple quarts. There is nothing wrong with my system. I vorlauf with a pump at a very slow rate for probably no more than a minute until I get the clarity I want. A settled grain bed gives me the clarify I want with will little effort. Just because I don't do it like you doesn't mean it's wrong.

Well in the end I ended up doing a ten minute rest, don't think it had any impact on efficiency, but did give me a few minutes to clear my head and pour another beer (which probably decreased my personal efficiency). By batch spargeing I significantly increased my efficiency over my last go-round. Also made the jump from partial mash to all grain. Between the more accurate temps, etc and some additional reading, including denny's guide and ray daniels book, and adjustment to my techniques finish with my O.G. within 2 points of target.