Can someone check my calculations for me?

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Bowtiebrewery

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Hey guys I'll be brewing Denny's BVIP this weekend and want to make sure I have my water measurements and adjustments correct... I've been using Palmers Residual alkalinity chart to get my additions but wanted some more experienced guys to check my numbers:

Here is my water

Ca: 13.5
Mg: 2.7
Na: 15
SO4: 26.4
Cl: 26.6
HCO3: 16

I am going for a london profile but adjusted based on what palmers spreadsheet says:

According to Palmer for 12 Gallons of My water my adjustments are:

7 Grams of Chalk
1 Gram of Gypsum
1 Gram of Calcium Chloride
3 Grams of Epsom Salt
2 Grams of Baking Soda
2 Gramas of Canning Salt

Giving me an adjusted Chemistry of

Ca: 86ppm
Mg: 6ppm
Na: 44ppm
SO4: 64ppm
Cl: 64ppm
HCO3: 118

According to the RA chart from Palmer I will have
Effective hardness of 65
Residual Alkalinity of 53
Balanced Chloride to Sulfate ratio

I'm not adding any acids or any Distilled Water

Thanks guys
 
That doesn't look right to me. You shouldn't be adding chalk and baking soda (which raise RA) when you're adding the other stuff that lowers it. Your water looks pretty good, so you shouldn't have to add too much of anything. In general, water additions should be kept to a bare minimum.

How much mash and sparge water? What does your grain bill look like? What's the SRM target?

I'll gladly plug them into EZ Water for you, but you can download the spreadsheet for free. There are links to it in one of the sticky threads on this board.
 
You definitely do not want to add the chalk and baking soda. It is likely that your mash pH will be too high without them and adding them will only raise it higher with a definite detrimental effect on the beer.

This spreadsheet does not calculate alkalinity (and, thus, residual alkalinity) properly accounting for only one half. Besides which the chalk will not dissolve and may very well carry over into the beer rendering it chalky tasting (no surprise there). You might want to look at the sticky at the top of the page.
 
Hey guys thanks for the replies... I re-read palmers RA and Water Chemistry sections again... I calculated completely wrong based on the recipe...

Although my porter has a SRM of 40.1 I decided that I will be calculating for 30 since this is inside the realm of measuring for his RA Chart here are the revised aditions:

Still its a ton of additions for 11 gallons... my profile is so soft that going this hard takes a lot...

14 grams of Chalk and 12 Grams of Baking Soda... This gives me an effective hardness of 107, a RA of 245, and a range of Est SRM of 25-30 while still maintaining a balanced Chloride to Sulfate ratio... This also gives me a Base malt mash PH of around 6-6.1ph...

Sound right now?
 
No, you're going in the wrong direction. You don't want any chalk or bicarbonate and you have even more in this new formulation.

If you only added only the bicarbonate you would have alkalinity of 185 and RA of 174. If you add the carbonate too without adding acid to dissolve it technically your alkalinity and RA both increase by 383 to, respectively, 568 and 557. If you dissolve the CaCO3 with carbonic acid then you would have an alkalinity of 515 and an RA of 407. These are insane numbers for a London ale - actually for any beer.

Color really has very little if anything to do with this.

You do not want a mash pH anywhere like 6 and assuming Kolbach's number is applicable here it would be more like 6.5 (remember that the spreadsheet you are using does not account for carbonate properly).

You may want to look at the sticky at the top of the Brew Science main page.
 
Again, I suggest downloading a free copy of the EZ Water spreadsheet. It allows you to input your water, grain bill, mash and sparge water, etc. and then play with the additions. My water is pretty soft, but not quite as soft as yours. When I make porters and stouts I have to do little if anything. One thing I absolutely try to do is avoid chalk. It doesn't dissolve in water and the chemistry pretty complicated.

Have you considered just using a pH stabilizer? The KISS principle strongly applies to water manipulation unless you're a chemist and really understand buffering.
 
Ok so am i wrong in trying to adjust my alkalinity to get it in the 150ppm-300ppm range? I thought for a beer that has an SRM of 40 you would need to get it in that range?

I used EZ Water and I come up with 5 grams each of Chalk and Baking soda for 243 Alkalinity and 171 RA... or 9-10 grams of just baking soda...Ill get 239 for alkalinity and 238 RA...

I've changed my total water to 10.25 gallons total.

Is this correct now?
 
Ok so am i wrong in trying to adjust my alkalinity to get it in the 150ppm-300ppm range? I thought for a beer that has an SRM of 40 you would need to get it in that range?

I used EZ Water and I come up with 5 grams each of Chalk and Baking soda for 243 Alkalinity and 171 RA... or 9-10 grams of just baking soda...Ill get 239 for alkalinity and 238 RA...

I've changed my total water to 10.25 gallons total.

Is this correct now?

Where is the mash pH?

I would not get so hung up on the RA. Just get the mash pH in range and then unclick the box for the sparge additions. RA be dammed!
 
^^^ See I don't understand this... I must have read over and over Palmer's water section of How to brew and it does seem that RA is pretty important...

I am just getting really confused... After reading what AJ posted as the top Sticky he says to basically only add 2 teaspoons of Calcium Chloride per 5 gallons... and since this is a british beer also add the 1 teaspoon of Gypsum per 5 gallons...

So thats 4 teaspoons of Calcium Chloride and 2 Teaspoons of Gypsum...

That is considering I have soft water...
 
^^^ See I don't understand this... I must have read over and over Palmer's water section of How to brew and it does seem that RA is pretty important...

I am just getting really confused... After reading what AJ posted as the top Sticky he says to basically only add 2 teaspoons of Calcium Chloride per 5 gallons... and since this is a british beer also add the 1 teaspoon of Gypsum per 5 gallons...

So thats 4 teaspoons of Calcium Chloride and 2 Teaspoons of Gypsum...

That is considering I have soft water...

There is a divide amongst brewers when it comes to the RA to SRM connection. Not everybody accepts what Palmer has written.

I'd suggest that you brew the beer both ways and compare the results. If you do please post your findings.
 
I don't get it if there is a divide... AJ who has posted here, isn't he the same person that is cited on Palmer's website under Residual Alkalinity?

How about this... I'll brew the beer base on the exact additions that are suggested here... So far people have told me to revisit my calculations but have yet to get a suggested chemistry for my brew day... So here it is in its entirety so that way i leave nothing out...

Denny Conn's BVIP
SRM 40.7
19.75lbs of grain total rounded to 20lbs

of this 1.5 is a crystal malt
1.25 is a roasted malt

My water Profile:
Ca: 13.5
Mg: 2.7
Na: 15
SO4: 26.4
Cl: 26.6
HCO3: 16
Ph is 7.1

I'm assuming that I should be aiming for a London Profile however I'll leave that to your better knowledge in this area.

So in order to appropriately brew this beer what additions should I make.

Thanks,

Jason
 
I don't get it if there is a divide... AJ who has posted here, isn't he the same person that is cited on Palmer's website under Residual Alkalinity?

Yes, I'm the same guy but I had nothing to do with the RA/SRM thing. Everthing I gave John when he was writing the book is available to you at www.wetnewf.org. You won't see any mention of SRM in the water chemistry stuff there (though there is lots on it in the beer color stuff). I never really took the time to understand what he was about with the color part of his nomogram. It wasn't until I started seeing threads like this one that I finally downloaded the spreadsheet and got a real surprise when I saw the numbers that come out for dark beer. I know that this is a complex subject but if you have any understanding of brewing chemistry or have someone who does that you can talk to he will tell you the same thing I have said. No beer was ever brewed with and RA over 500 (probably should never say never - I'm sure some people using John's spreadsheet have.)

The EZ spreadsheet has more or less fixed the chalk problem (and he warns you that the fix isn't good at higher pH) and toned the relationship between color and SRM way down but it is still there. He also handles acid additions better but still one should take anything that comes out of spreadsheet with a grain of salt.

[
of this 1.5 is a crystal malt
1.25 is a roasted malt

My water Profile:
Ca: 13.5
Mg: 2.7
Na: 15
SO4: 26.4
Cl: 26.6
HCO3: 16
Ph is 7.1

I'm assuming that I should be aiming for a London Profile however I'll leave that to your better knowledge in this area.

So in order to appropriately brew this beer what additions should I make.

Baseline: Add 1 tsp of calcium chloride dihydrate (what your LHBS sells) to each 5 gallons of water treated. Add 2% sauermalz to the grist.

Deviate from the baseline as follows:

For soft water beers (i.e Pils, Helles). Use half the baseline amount of calcium chloride and increase the sauermalz to 3%

For beers that use roast malt (Stout, porter): Skip the sauermalz.

For British beers: Add 1 tsp gypsum as well as 1 tsp calcium chloride

For very minerally beers (Export, Burton ale): Double the calcium chloride and the gypsum.
 
I plugged everything into EZ Water with estimated mash/sparge volumes and I may have to take back what I said about chalk. It looks like you might need some here. I use it on occasion, but I try to avoid it. You could probably leave the chalk out of the sparge and still be OK since the spreadsheet reduces the effectiveness to 50% and you might get better than that. Anyway, here's roughly what I would do:


Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 13.5
Mg: 2.7
Na: 15
Cl: 26.6
SO4: 26.4
HCO3: 16

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 6.5 / 9.5
RO or distilled %: 0% / 0%

Total Grain (lb): 19.75
Non-Roasted Spec. Grain: 1.5
Roasted Grain: 1.25
Beer Color (SRM): 30

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaSO4: 0 / 0
CaCl2: 0 / 0
MgSO4: 2.5 / 3.653846154
NaHCO3: 5 / 0
NaCl: 1 / 0
CaCO3: 5 / 7.307692308
Lactic Acid (ml): 0
Sauermalz (oz): 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 95 / 95
Mg: 12 / 12
Na: 87 / 44
Cl: 51 / 37
SO4: 66 / 66
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 0.78 / 0.55

Alkalinity (CaCO3): 234
RA: 159
Estimated pH: 5.22
 
I plugged everything into EZ Water with estimated mash/sparge volumes and I may have to take back what I said about chalk. It looks like you might need some here. I use it on occasion, but I try to avoid it. You could probably leave the chalk out of the sparge and still be OK since the spreadsheet reduces the effectiveness to 50% and you might get better than that.

Without any mineral additions the mash pH of this beer will probably be around 5.45- 5.55 (but I can't predict that anymore than a spreadsheet can.

Bicarbonate and carbonate should never be added to brewing water (except under special circumstances). The way to use them is to check the mash pH with a pH meter and if it is low, then add some to the mash. That is not likely here. Unfortunately, the strips don't seem to work very well. You really do need a meter (and the know how to use it).

The EZ spreadsheet has been corrected to correctly calculate the effects of alkalinity increase when chalk is added as long as the pH is below 8.3 or so.

You would never want to add chalk to sparge water. All it can do is react with acid in the mash to cause the runoff pH to rise faster to the point where phenol extraction becomes a concern.
 
Hmmm, I think I got a pH of about 5.05 without the additions. I'll have to double-check my spreadsheet. That's why I thought a bit of chalk might be a good idea.

AJ, why would you never add carbonate and bicarbonate at the same time? I'm not disagreeing with you, I've just never heard that one.

I don't add chalk to the sparge water either. If I were to add it I would add to the boil kettle and not the sparge. Actually, I add all of my "sparge" additions to the kettle if I do them. Most of the time I don't bother. I have pretty good water here in Chicago.
 
The pH observation is based on experience. Approximately 10% roast barley gives me pH of 5.5 or so. 30% takes me to 5.2 (Maris Otter base malt). Remember that the spreadsheet is based on a model and that models fit differing sets of circumstances differently. That is why it is so important to measure pH with a reliable instrument. That's the only way that you will really know what's happening.

I should have said neither bicarbonate nor carbonate should be added to brewing water except...

Just remember that if there is a rule of thumb that really works most of the time in brewing it would be "Alkalinity = bad". Both bicarbonate and carbonate are sources of alkalinity.
 
I plugged everything into EZ Water with estimated mash/sparge volumes and I may have to take back what I said about chalk. It looks like you might need some here. I use it on occasion, but I try to avoid it. You could probably leave the chalk out of the sparge and still be OK since the spreadsheet reduces the effectiveness to 50% and you might get better than that. Anyway, here's roughly what I would do:


Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 13.5
Mg: 2.7
Na: 15
Cl: 26.6
SO4: 26.4
HCO3: 16

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 6.5 / 9.5
RO or distilled %: 0% / 0%

Total Grain (lb): 19.75
Non-Roasted Spec. Grain: 1.5
Roasted Grain: 1.25
Beer Color (SRM): 30

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaSO4: 0 / 0
CaCl2: 0 / 0
MgSO4: 2.5 / 3.653846154
NaHCO3: 5 / 0
NaCl: 1 / 0
CaCO3: 5 / 7.307692308
Lactic Acid (ml): 0
Sauermalz (oz): 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 95 / 95
Mg: 12 / 12
Na: 87 / 44
Cl: 51 / 37
SO4: 66 / 66
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 0.78 / 0.55

Alkalinity (CaCO3): 234
RA: 159
Estimated pH: 5.22

Your using too much water. The OP stated that the recipe calls for 10.25 gallons of brewing water. You've also got the SRM wrong, it should be 40.7
 
DISCLAIMER: I'm just an average brewer who knows how to punch numbers into a spreadsheet. I don't know mush about chemistry. In spreadsheet we trust! ;)

Here is what I get using the EZ spreadsheet

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 13.5
Mg: 2.7
Na: 15
Cl: 26.6
SO4: 26.4
HCO3: 16

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 7.5 / 2.75
RO or distilled %: 0% / 0%

Total Grain (lb): 20
Non-Roasted Spec. Grain: 1.25
Roasted Grain: 1.5
Beer Color (SRM): 40.7

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaSO4: 0 / 0
CaCl2: 1 / 0.36
MgSO4: 0 / 0
NaHCO3: 8 / 0
NaCl: 0 / 0
CaCO3: 4 / 0
Lactic Acid (ml): 0
Sauermalz (oz): 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 80 / 64
Mg: 3 / 3
Na: 92 / 71
Cl: 44 / 44
SO4: 26 / 26
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 1.65 / 1.65

Alkalinity (CaCO3): 250
RA: 191
Estimated pH: 5.21

I've got you mashing with 7.5 gallons (1.5 qts/lb) and using the other 2.75 gallons in the sparge. You add the mash salts directly to the mash. Add the sparge salts to the wort in the boil kettle.

Really your water is good to brew this beer as is EXCEPT that there is an assumption that the dark malts will lower your pH out of range. So we are using chalk & baking soda to correct the pH. You may want to mash in WITHOUT the salts and check the pH. If it's in range (5.2 - 5.7) you could skip the baking soda and chalk and just add 5 grams of Calcium Chloride to the mash. Or you could just add the stuff in the spreadsheet and go with the flow. Please post your results.

It would be great if you brewed it my way and AJ's way and then compared the results. It may help close the divide.
 
Thanks for all the help guys... I will do this... Maida... I will brew it first your way and then I will brew a second batch same everything except AJ's way...

I am going to take the exact numbers you had and plug them into the EZ water spreadsheet and see if it comes out the same... I'm a batch sparge brewer... but I'm sure that it will work just fine... I currently only have one March pump as I run a single tier electric setup.
 
If I can brew both of them on the same day I will but its doubtful... I always have a ridiculous schedule

But I think that maybe for this to be an accurate test... I should brew them on the same day... that way there are no outside variables to influence perceptions on taste, color, clarity, or mouth feel...

This might just be my Saturday lol...
 
update... Well today was the brewday from Hell... I should tell you that I unfortunately had quite a problem with my mash... Somehow my falsebottom lifted and I had to drain the entire tun... As i went to go force the remaining grains through my pump and HERMS coil with a little compressed air... I had a line explode basically sending 153*f grains and liquor everywhere includeing my laptop...

Besides that, I had hit my efficiencies dead on (remarkable considering the loss) 75% BHE coming in with a final volume of 5.5 gallons of wort collected at 1.082 OG... Pitched at 64*f...

I am officially tired... my brew day started at 10am... It is now 6pm after cleanup...

I could not brew the second batch today I used AJ's water additions... so unfortunately this is not going to be a fair test... I'll have to do the with another batch to see which works... So I think my next brew will be 10-12 gallons of Kolsch
 
Update 5 days later...

Fermentation has slowed and did my first gravity reading. from 1.082 to 1.018... Two packets of US-05 were pitched with aeration for 30 minutes from a HEPA air pump.

Tasted the beer very very good so far. I didnt taste a lot as I have not been feeling all that well due to Lyme Disease and getting over Pneumonia, but still my taste buds are working well enough to detect a pretty good beer...

I'm going to warm this beer up for the next 4-7 days and then once it is completely settled I will be transfering to my secondary.
 
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