Results from juice, yeast and sugar experiments

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I'm not sure what you meant by get stupid quick but I wanted to clarify that I wasn't implying that you were stupid. This brewing thing we do requires constant experimentation or else we wouldn't ever find new things or what we like best. Don't know much about aging cider under 5.5% but I think I remember reading somewhere that you were alright for at least 6-9 months.

No offense taken. What I meant was that I was not looking to increase the ABV in order to get drunk/tipsy/"stupid" with the least amount of drinking possible. I'm sure there are a number of people that try home brewing with those intentions and you've probably read their questions on this site. I assumed you thought I was one of them and that is why I responded that I'm not trying to "get stupid quickly."

I enjoy a good cider and am hear to learn the craft and enjoy the results. Unfortunately, I have few funds right now so I am trying to understand as much as possible before I do something that may severely alter my cider.

I appreciate your quick responses to my questions.
 
One of the challenges of stopping the cider with some residual apple sweetness is knowing when to start checking the SG.

On this last batch, I tried out a new method – using some brew balls to monitor the progress. There is a company that makes these for beer, and they were good enough to make me a custom set for cider. So far, they seem pretty useful for cider and I’ll probably be getting some more of these for the next round of batches. Here’s the website: http://www.brewballstore.com/

Hi CvilleKevin,
I would like to thank you for starting this thread, I used your methods to do my own 5 gallon/5 yeasts test with some good results. Thank you!

On the subject of brew balls I emailed Tom at the Brew Ball site and told him your comments on numbering them as well as getting my own custom set and he said
"We are looking at future sets with numbers laser-engraved."

I can see where the numbers would be much better then the colored dots if you get a lot of custom balls.

Thanks again for all the great information in this thread!

Mcduff
 
No offense taken. What I meant was that I was not looking to increase the ABV in order to get drunk/tipsy/"stupid" with the least amount of drinking possible. I'm sure there are a number of people that try home brewing with those intentions and you've probably read their questions on this site. I assumed you thought I was one of them and that is why I responded that I'm not trying to "get stupid quickly."

I enjoy a good cider and am hear to learn the craft and enjoy the results. Unfortunately, I have few funds right now so I am trying to understand as much as possible before I do something that may severely alter my cider.

I appreciate your quick responses to my questions.

I assume nothing and after your explanation, your comments make perfect sense but I wanted to make sure things were clear before something stupid happen. I don't need to make any enemies here and have no reason to treat anyone on any online forum like an idiot. There are no stupid questions, just stupid answers. reading this sticky on this forum is a great start on making some great cider. Have you ever homebrewed before?
 
Not sure if this is the best place to ask but instead of yet another thread it seems like a good idea to ask here...

Got 3 gallons of pure (no preservitives, non pasturized etc) apple cider and added 3 campden pills, let it sit over night, added 1 lb of light brown sugar (after boiling for 15 mins), sprinkled some Star wine yeast and it's bubbling away in the fermenter. At this point I am not sure what to expect

-How long will it take to ferment?
-How long should I let it age in the bottle?
-Should I carbonate? (and how would I properly do it, priming sugar just like ales?)
-How long is this type of bottled cider good for, typically?
-Is that stinky odor normal while fermenting?
-anything else I should expect?
 
CvilleKevin, i can't thank you enough. I am very new to homebrewing and I went out to Nelson County this weekend and picked up 6 gallons of cider from Dickie Bros (UV pas., no preserv.) with not much more of a plan then throw it in a carboy and pitch some champagne yeast. After reading I have changed that more than a bit.

I am planning on using the 2/3 turbinado to 1/3 dextros split to up it to 1.060 and pitch with either Coopers or US05 after I re-taste the cider to see if I think it's got enough bite as is. You have also convinced me to get the rest of the stuff I need to keg, as i know the girlfriend will want it bubbly even if i don't.

A few questions though. Has anyone played with adding spices during fermentation? Like mulling but not after it's done? How about mulling after the fact, I'm sure you couldn't really go wrong with that.

Also, I'm in Richmond, any recommendations for cider supply, the closer the better. I went to Nelson County simply because i know the area from camping at crabtree, and it's not that bad a drive. I plan on getting at least one more batch going this year, so anyone putting out a particularly good cider right now?

There is no way to guess how much money, time, and horrible cider you have saved me, kudos!
 
There's lots of recipes with spices - if you search the main forum, you'll find a ton of them. I havent done anything with spices yet

I've been getting my cider from Showalter's, which is near Harrisonburg. They make great cider. They're even further from you than Dickies, but they sell a lot in Central VA - you might want to check with their Cville distributer and see if there is a place that is closer to you. The distributer is: http://www.cavalierproduce.com/

I'll be going to the press again in mid-Nov and will post something on HBT before I go. I usually pick up for a half dozen friends when I go.

If you're thinking about a kegging setup and up for a trip to the DC area, you might want to check out this craiglist ad - seems like a pretty good deal for everything you need to start kegging: http://martinsburg.craigslist.org/for/1408987960.html
 
BTW - On Sunday, Nov 8th, I'm having some friends over to check out the some of the experimental batches from this season - the better of the DME batches and wheat yeast batches. If you're close to C'ville and want to drop by, PM me and I'll send you the details - cheers!
 
Above and beyond, thanks again! I actually had two tanks and a regulator from serving standard retail kegs, so i only needed the corny and quick connects, which i picked up yesterday from Weekend Brewer in Chester. Now just need to convert the extra mini fridge i got sitting around.

I started that batch of cider last night as well. The cider i got from dickie bros was labeled as Millers Orchard, so i guess that is their supplier. But for those curious the OG was 1.052, adding 10oz turbinado (sugar in the raw) and 5 oz dextrose upped that to 1.060, adding another 6oz turb & 3 oz dex took it up to 1.064, so your 18/9 split would have pretty much hit the money for 1.065, but i wanted to play it safe. This is a 5 gallon batch btw. I pitched one packet of coopers (dry, no starter) when the cider was around 63F before i went to bed. It is bubbling very slowly but steadily this morning, hope that continues and i didn't pitch too cold, i got another packet in case.

I noticed the temp range of coopers is 69-79F (weekend brewer site), have you had any problems since you seem to ferment at temps lower than that? I think this may actually help me have a slower ferment since mine will be kept at around 70.

Will update with results.
 
I assume nothing and after your explanation, your comments make perfect sense but I wanted to make sure things were clear before something stupid happen. I don't need to make any enemies here and have no reason to treat anyone on any online forum like an idiot. There are no stupid questions, just stupid answers. reading this sticky on this forum is a great start on making some great cider. Have you ever homebrewed before?

I'm brand new to home brewing though many friends and family have been into it for a while. I enjoy the process of creating something yourself so this seems like a logical hobby for me.
 
Once the weather gets cool, my basement is usually around 55-60F and I've never had a problem with any of the yeasts at that temp, although they will take a lot longer to ferment out - which I view as a plus. I'm pretty sure that the recommend range is for fermenting a regular ale in a short (week or less) amount of time. Coopers will go pretty fast at 70F, so you'll need to keep an eye on it.
 
Hey there, I'm also a first time cider guy... I'm gonna get 5 gallons of unpasturized cider in a couple days from Michigan. I think that I'll just try the S04 with honey as that seemed to work well for you. I read through this entire thread (phew!) and I just wanted to see if I got something right.

I know that I could add the campden tabs to kill of wild yeasts prior to pitching the yeast, but were you saying that you didn't think that that was necessary? I'm planning on cold crashing it at 1.008 or so and then force carbonating.

Thanks for all the info!
 
Right - If the unpasteurized juice you get is fresh, and the press has good sanitation practices, then you dont need to add campden before the ferment. You will get more apple taste and be able to drink it sooner.

If you want to save it for more than 6 months or so, then you will want to add a little bit at the end, after fermentation - however most of the time it gets consumed way before long term storage becomes an issue
 
Yeah, it's bubbling away pretty fast now, got home yesterday and was very thankful i used a blow off tube instead of an airlock. The sanitation water now looks like cider... (the current temp is 73 or so) I'm going to check sg tonight.
 
If you can lower your temps, it will do better at 60-65. At 73 Coopers will ferment out in no time - like 3 or 4 days. Even when temps are cool, Coopers goes pretty fast.

If you use a deeper container for your blow-off vessel, you will keep more of the cider in your carboy - a taller water column will take more pressure to bubble and that will keep the foam down so it doesnt get into the blowoff tube. Empty wine bottles are good for this
 
I'm in an apartment, so the carboy just sits in my closet. I may eventually modify a mini fridge for lagering, etc. but for now it's not really an option. Just gonna have to deal with a quick ferment. Well, i might have an option. Does light adversely effect cider like it does beer? or can i leave it near a shaded window?
 
Yeah, try to keep the light off it. you can always wrap a towel around it. This time of the year, I just set the thermostat as low as SWMBO can stand it and layer up.
 
haha, swmbo is already complaining, and i'm still sweating... sg is at 1.040 or there abouts, whole lot of bubbles, shaking/twisting moved it from 1.050 to 1.040 so it might be a bit lower. Temp on carboy therm. is now 75/77, in room is @ 73 :-/
 
Been reading through this thread for the past couple of days as I get ready to pick up some cider from an orchard north of Atlanta. I've got a fair amount of experience on the beer side, but the cider homebrew world is new to me. I know I like the Normandy styles of ciders, and for still I prefer it dryer. I dropped off 6 carboys last week and am picking them up today. Any thoughts on the following setup would be helpful, particularly things like goal ranges for SG & FG or if some of my suggestions on yeasts look like poor choices.

All are in 5 or 6 gallon carboys. I'm planning on cold crashing all, blending after secondary, kegging & using carbonation stone on 2, bottling the others. On the 4 I'm bottling, I wouldn't mind it if some were sparkling.

Thanks a bunch.
Ivano

Batch # Yeast SG after goal FG goal for cold crash
Granny #1 Wyeast 1968 1.06-1.065 ?
Granny #2 US-05 1.06-1.065 ?
Pink Lady #1 Wyeast 3068 1.06-1.065 ?
Pink Lady #2 S04 - Sarfale 1.06-1.065 1.01
Gold Rush #1 N/A - Wild 1.06-1.065 1.02-1.025
Gold Rush #2 S04 - Sarfale 1.06-1.065 1.01
 
Crap. My girlfriend just got back from Michigan with 5 freshly filled gallons of cider. Unfortunately, it has been UV filtered, but worse yet it has 0.1% potassium sorbate added. Am I screwed? Will this just kill the yeast that I put in?

Not that drinking 5 gal of fresh cider is necessarily a bad thing, but I wanted hard cider!
 
Ivano - looks good! You might want to consider mixing a couple of those Granny smith and pink lady batches. Granny smith juice is crazy sour by itself - not just "sour apple finish" sour, more like "makes your jaw lock up" sour. A couple of years ago I did some batches with 50/50 Granny smith and Pink lady and they came out really good. OTOH, I have a few friends who have been trying to talk me into doing a batch of all Granny smith because they like the crazy sour. I'm not familiar with Gold Rush. Once you get your ciders, I would suggest tasting and maybe mixing some of these together so that you get a good balance of taste in the juice.

I like all of the ale yeasts finished out at around 1.006 to 1.010. Exactly where in this spectrum is a matter of personal taste and the acid balance in the cider, so maybe try to start checking for taste around 1.015 and make the decision of where to crash then. Wheat yeasts are good for a sweeter cider - I usually crash these around 1.020 - 1.025 as they are more juicy and not as sticky sweet as an ale yeast in this range. You can go lower on the wheats if you want, but they seem to be real popular at 1.020 or so.

If you like the normandy ciders, you might want to do another 3068 batch, or another wheat batch like 1010 or 3056. All three of these are slow fermenters, which gives the wild yeast a little more time to do its thing before the wheat yeast dominates and they are easier to manage than wild yeast batches.

Pavelump - the sorbate wont kill the yeast, but will keep them from reproducing. I've got a few batches to ferment out with sorbate but they never tasted very good. I think the key for success may be to keep pitching new yeast every few days and you'll probably want to go with starters when you pitch
 
NatureNurd - I havent used candi yet, dont know how it would turn out. Havent used clarifiers either. Usually if the cold crash doesnt get them crystal clear, a couple weeks in a secondary does the trick. Thats for unpasteurized juice - pasteurized is harder to clear. If you use honey, they will aways get crystal clear on the crash. The only batch that gave me trouble was a Stayman/Rome batch last year. Romes are a popular applesause apple, probably because of the pectin properties. Tasted great cloudy though. I've got a friend who swears by bentonite because it has the least effect on taste, although I've never used it.
 
CK,

I've read through 1/2 of this thread (you should consider doing a book) and have seen a lot of questions brought up about carbonating cider while still maintaining a sweet - apple taste.

Last year a made a three gallon blueberry cider w/ 4lbs dextrose sugar (needless to say it was pretty strong). It was in the primary for about 3-1/2 weeks and the secondary for +/- 4 weeks. From there I bottled into 1/2 gallon & 1 gallon growlers. The yeast continued to work and carbonated the cider nicely. I've managed to keep one 1/2 gallon growler for about a year and luckily haven't had any problems with exploding bottles.

So I was wondering if one way to get a sweet-carbonated cider would be to rack the cider before it completely dries out, bottle & condition for a few days to carbonate, and then store in a very cool place. I realize this might be risky, because there's no way to judge how much the fermentation has been slowed and there's still a chance for exploding bottles.

Your thoughts?
 
Yes - racking is a form of nutrient reduction. If you use a yeast that consumes a lot of nitrogen during fermentation (most ale and wheat yeasts), you can induce a stuck fermentation by racking. If you bottle right after the rack, you could get a bit of carbonation before the ferment completely sticks.

You're right that this would be risky, because you usually dont get rid of all the nutrient with a single rack. I've used racking to stop ferments instead of cold crashing before. Sometimes it takes only one, but usually it takes three or four to get the ferment to stop with some sweetness. This is using juice from an orchard that does not use nitrogen fertilizers and no nutrient added. Its somewhat yeast dependent - 3068 usually sticks with a single rack regardless of juice. I've also done this with S04 and Notty, which sometimes take a single rack and sometimes more.

I think it might be possible to bottle carbonate a sweet cider somewhat reliably by racking enough times that the ferment completely sticks - and leaving it in the secondary long enough to verify that it is indeed stable - and then pitch a little more yeast on it. Theoretically, the yeast should last just long enough in a low nitrogen environment to get just a bit of carbonation. I havent tried this yet and probably wont get around to it this season, as keg conditioning is a lot easier, but if someone is dead set on bottle conditioning a sweet cider, it might be a little more reliable - just be prepared to crack a few bottles while working out how much yeast to add at the end

One of these days I need to go back and re-write this thread so that all of the info is consolidated. When I go back and read the first post, I'm struck by how much I've learned in just a year - a lot of stuff I thought I knew a year ago was wrong. Probably wont be till after cider season. That'll give me something to do in the Spring besides drink this season's cider
 
One of these days I need to go back and re-write this thread so that all of the info is consolidated. When I go back and read the first post, I'm struck by how much I've learned in just a year - a lot of stuff I thought I knew a year ago was wrong. Probably wont be till after cider season. That'll give me something to do in the Spring besides drink this season's cider
That would be amazing for new cidermakers! This thread already cuts the learning curve by, oh, maybe five years? It's a couple-days project to read through, though. It's been said many times, but again, Thank You!

Now, a quick question: I have two batches in primary, right now. These are 6 1/2 gal brewing buckets. One is an apfelwein variation that is at 1.000 SG, right now. Just to ensure it doesn't drop any more (unlikely, it's been at 1.000 for a while) and also to clear it a bit more to prepare for aging in bottles, I've put it in the fridge for a cold crash. In its original primary bucket.

I know you recommend racking to cold crash, then racking back. I don't have a secondary, right now. I figured crashing in the primary is still worth the effort, if only for the clarity. Is that accurate?

Edit: incidentally, the other batch is juice, S-04, and a touch of sugar, with the intent to crash at 1.010. You haven't really published a "recipe," but that seems to match your general guidelines. We'll see! It started at 1.060, last night was at 1.044.
 
Since you're already at 1.000, you dont have too much to worry about in terms of a ferment starting back up, so you could just chill to get the clarity

Generally speaking - If you just chill the primary, that will clear it, but you will still have all that yeast and nutrient on the bottom of the primary, so the yeast will start back up if it gets warm. If you siphon off the top of the primary, you will leave most of the yeast behind, but its not as reliable. I've tried different methods to try to save steps, but the only thing that really seems to stop the fermentation reliably is rack, chill, and rack again.
 
The taste of sorbate is hard to describe - its like a medicinal version of vanilla - maybe vanilla mixed with baby aspirin. If you have some, or next time you're at your LHBS, put a small bit on your tongue. Thats the taste - it doesnt dissipate in the cider. The recommended dose is 1/2 tsp per gallon, which is a lot. I've tried using less, but you need the full dose to stop the ferment. Also, you need to add k-meta first or it will taste even worse - like geraniums. If you wanted to do a spiced cider, you might be able to build a drinkable tasting mix by adding other spices to complement it, but if you want a clean apple taste it doesnt work.
 
Kevin,

Can i start a five gallon batch in a 6.5 gallon carboy and then when it reaches the gravity im looking for, can i rack these into 1 gallon jugs? i dont have the space to cold crash a carboy but could fit at least 5 1 gallon jugs in the regular fridge and my beer fridge. also im looking to get my cider close to jk scrumpy cider, what fg should i be aiming for? i love scrumpy and i probably drink about 3 cases a month but at 5 dollars a bomber its raping my wallet.
 
Going from a 6 gal carboy to 1 gallon jugs is a little unconventional, but I dont see why it wouldnt work. If you have the gallon jugs and havent pitched the yeast yet, you might want to just start with gallons - that way you can experiment a bit with different yeasts, sugar, sgs etc.

As far as getting close to a JK Scrumpy - thats a tough one. Here's a thread on doing a clone https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f32/anyone-sucessfully-done-jk-scrumpys-clone-125852/

JKS is not easily replicated. Its a natural ferment done at lager temps with a great apple mix (Northern Spy, Cortland and Jonathan) that has been intentionally nitrogen limited and probably sweated to increase sugar content. SG is 1.024 but it doesnt taste all that sweet because the flavor from the natural yeast is so intense that it balances the sugar.

The closest I've had to a JKS was made by the guy who runs the cider mill I use. He used unpasteurized Stayman juice and left it in a 50 gallon barrel in an unheated shed over the winter.

I've had mixed results with natural ferments. I've had some really good ones, but they are a lot of work to keep stable and then crash unless you have a lagering setup. At this point, I've pretty much made up my mind only to do gallon batches for natural ferments from now on, because doing keg batches is so much work. Besides which, I only have a handful of friends who really appreciate a natural ferment. For most folks, a keg of S04, US05, Notty or 3068 really hits the spot, and these are much, much less work.

If you can get good unpasteurized juice, then I'd recommend experimenting around with some ale and wheat yeasts to see what you like. Dont add campden because the natural yeast is what gives JKS and similar farmhouse ciders the distinctive taste.

Wheat yeasts are probably the best for getting the wild flavor because they ferment so slow that the wild yeast leaves a pretty good imprint before the cultured yeast takes over. And the cultured yeast is a lot easier to crash, so you sort of get the best of both worlds. 3068 is more like a Normandy cider. JKS is a little heaver tasting, and I would say the heaviest tasting of the wheat yeasts is the WLP380, bumped up with a little sugar.

Personally, I like something a little lighter - for all the authenticity of a JKS or Normandy cider, its hard to beat S04 crashed at about 1.010 or so. You cant crash the ale yeasts too high though. Above 1.012 or so, they get a sort of sticky sweet taste. Wheat and natural yeasts you can crash at 1.020 or even 1.030 without them tasting overly sticky
 
CK,
thanks for all the info. Got 4 out of 6 batches mentioned previously in primary, with the Granny's (or maybe I'll switch that to something more balanced) coming in this week. Everything's chugging along, they've all dropped from the 1.06/1.065 to 1.045-1.04 levels after 3 full days.

On the topic of blending, I'm used to the wine world where I do this on the tail end (just prior to bottling). Are you suggesting you prefer to do it in cider prior to ferment? If so, what do you find you gain?

Also, I'm thinking of racking to a secondary even if I'm not near my finishing level around day 5. This should slow the rate and spread out to the finish times. Any concerns with this? I'd love to use the 1 avail slot in my kegerator to cold crash all 6 eventual batches, so anything I can do to slow the fermentation I'm game for. Not sure what off flavors and aromas might be induced from a too-fast or hot ferment with cider, fusel alcohols?

Lastly, I haven't seen much on this thread on ML (malo-lactic) fermentation. Is this b/c most here aren't aging their ciders sufficiently long enough? Have you played with this much?

Thanks for all the sage advice. Cheers.
Ivano
 
Ivano - Yes, I prefer to blend the juice prior to fermenting so that I know I have a good balanced juice mix to start with.

Sure - you could blend afterward if you wanted to. The main thing I gain from blending beforehand is confidence that I have a good juice mix. I'd be a little nervous about fermenting out batches that I knew were lacking in balance and trusting that I could pull it all together at the end with mixing. But that's just the way that I've always done it. I know that there are cider houses that wait til the end of the ferment to mix and that seems to work OK for them. I suppose it does give you some more creative control over the final product. Also potentially more variety in the final product, as you could change the mix around for different tastes.

My guess is that the taste probably would be a little different if you fermented the juices out separately and mixed rather than mixed beforehand, because the yeasts will be doing their things in different pH environments - but I've never experimented to confirm this and dont know if the results would be better or worse.

I have mixed batches post-ferment, but not for a while. Usually I do it with my one gallon experimental batches. There have been plenty that didnt taste all that great when they fermented out, and when that happens I'll often try to mix them together so that I can get a keg of something that tastes decent by mixing batches that have complimentary defects (mixing too tart with not tart enough, etc)

For my main keg batches, I'm usually going after a mix of styles using the same juice, and I'm not sure how well they would blend. For example the wheat yeast batches are very different from ale yeast blends, which are different from cysers, etc. But again, there are all sorts of ways to make cider and as long as they give good results, then there is no right or wrong way to do it. If you ferment the varieties separately and then mix, I'll be interested to know how it comes out.

Yes - racking helps to slow the ciders down. I had to do this with my first round of the season because the temps were so warm and I only have room for one at a time in the fridge. Often, with ale and wheat yeasts, you can stop them just by racking a few times. Sometimes they will stop with a single rack, so you probably want to be careful about racking them too early. I find that under normal temps, I can stagger them well enough just by mixing up the styles. S04 with no sugar ferments out first, then US05, Notty and S04 with sugar usually finish out next and a few days apart, batches with honey take a little longer and 3068 takes the longest. YMMV.

I've found that if a batch finishes sour, it will usually do an MLF by itself just sitting in a secondary for a couple months. Again, YMMV. I recently got a couple of ML cultures, to test out the next time that I get a gallon batch that finishes sour, but I havent had a good test case to try them out on yet.
 
I see from the first page that you're fermenting at ~60F. I'm happy to see that, because that's just where my basement is getting to, and it's going to stay at that temp until spring. Did you have a hard time getting anything started? I know with making beer with some ale yeasts, they start VERY slowly, and I've had to carry them upstairs to get things rolling.

Did the Nottingham behave well at that temperature?
 
I pitch the yeast in the kitchen, where the temp is usually around 70, then carry the carboys to the basement, so it starts a little warmer. Nottingham is a little slower than some of the other ale yeasts to get going - sometimes takes up to 24 hours, but it likes fermenting at 60.
 
Kevin,
Thanks for all the great info.
Some comments/questions:
CO2 inhibits fermentation (I'm not sure of the complete mechanism, but carbonic acid probably plays a role). I've done batches where I bottled some still and some carbed. All the stills continued fermenting. The carbed bottles didn't change. Since I like them sweet and carbed, this happily seems to work out.
But I did have one batch (out of many) continue fermenting, even when carbed. No bottles blew, it was just too dry and champagney. I've never cold crashed, so I'll start trying that.

I've also had gallons ferment totally dry in the fridge. They started in the fridge so the yeast must have been able to handle the cold. Cold crashing wasn't an option. :)
JK Scrumpy obviously is doing something than just cold..

I've had no issue with aging ciders. I have several that are 4-5 years old. Several clearly improved with age, esp the molasses cyser.

How are you taking your SG readings? A thief and a refractometer?

Thanks again!
 
Hi Kurt - thanks for the info!

Interesting that CO2 would inhibit fermentation - If I understand you correctly, you are saying that you can keg a batch before it is done fermenting but without cold crashing and after some amount of time at pressure, you can pull bottles from the keg without them re fermenting? Obviously, there must be a time element at work and not just the CO2 level, otherwise you could just bottle carb and the CO2 would stop the ferment before blowing the bottle. I wonder if perhaps what is happening is that the C02 is causing the yeast to settle so that when you pull a bottle from a keg you are leaving the yeast behind - which is similar to mechanism at work with cold crashing?

I almost always cold crash and so far the only batches that I've bottled still which started back up have been wild yeast batches. Ale and wheat yeast batches are the easiest to crash. I've never noticed sg dropping on a bottle that was pulled from a crashed and carbonated keg. What yeast were you using when you got a referment after the carb?

Yes - there are some yeasts that can handle the cold. S23 and 4184 for starters. For the S23, I have to rack a time or two after the crash to get it to stop fermenting and the 4184 seems to get pretty dry no matter what I do. When I cold crash, the goal is to get the yeast to floculate so that it stays behind on the subsequent rack. It doesnt surprise me that some would be able to continue to work at low temps if you dont rack them off. What yeasts did you use that went dry in the fridge?

Do you add k-meta either before or after the ferment? The only issues I've had with aging ciders is for the ones that I didnt add any k-meta. These tend to get vinegary after 6-9 months. I've found that half a dose of k-meta after the ferment will keep that from happening and the taste is almost impossible to detect a month later (as opposed to adding it before the ferment, where it is very noticeable for several months). So far the longest I've saved anything with k-meta added is about a year and a half and those were fine. I've thought about going to a closed racking system to avoid introducing any air while racking, which ought to extend the lifetime of batches with no k-meta, but this seems like a PIA. If there is an easier/better way to extend shelf life without k-meta, I would be very interested to know.

I mostly take SG readings with a thief. The refractometer only works pre-fermentation. I've also started using some modified brew-balls so I can tell roughly where the ferment is and plan to cold crash without having to take a lot of sg readings. This cuts down a lot on the need to open the carboy, sanitize the thief, etc.
 
Well, my planned batch of "CK style," S-04, slightly fortified, cold crashed cider is coming along very well. It's been stuck at 1.020 for four days, twice as long as it took to go from 1.040 to 1.020. And with the airlock bubbling happily the whole time. Weird.

However, I tasted the sample I used to measure the SG, today (still 1.020), and, wow! It's excellent! I could go a hair dryer, myself, but my drinking partner is also my girlfriend, who I suspect will love this wet/dry balance. Naturally, I want this first batch to appeal to her... hobbies are so much easier that way, yeah? ;)

It doesn't taste sweet, really. I mean, as a seasoned drinker, I can tell it is... but it's not at the front of the palate. It just balances the other flavors. Very appealing! I tasted it at 1.040 and was worried cider wouldn't be for me... thankfully I was wrong! I am totally psyched!

Anyway, I did have a question. I went ahead and racked the batch and put it in the fridge. CK, you've said you replace the airlocks with solid stoppers. Why is that? I just resanitized and reused the airlock. I don't have solid stoppers, but also, it seems like it'll probably continue to ferment in the fridge until the temperature drops enough... so wouldn't the stopper just pop out? I mean, I assume not. Just curious why you don't use an airlock, just to be safe.
 
Hi Gilrain - I'm glad everything is working out.

Yeah, I often see a few bubbles after the crash, with the SG staying constant. I'm pretty sure that is malolactic fermentation, as the cider tends to smooth out a bit after the crash as well as sometimes gets a bit more body. It probably wouldnt hurt to keep an eye on it a while longer, just to make sure the sg doesnt drop

I use a solid stopper during the crash for a couple of reasons - mainly because when the cider cools there will be negative pressure in the carboy. With a one piece airlock, this will suck in fridge air, with a two piece it will suck back whatever is in the airlock. Also, I use better bottles and you cant really move these around without the airlock blowing and sucking. The gum stoppers fit really tight in the BBs so I dont have a problem with them popping out, although when I crash a carboy, I try to remember to loosen the bung very slightly a few hours later after it first goes in the fridge to relieve any pressure and then jam it down really tight. The only times I've had them pop loose is with wild yeast batches - those can be a ***** to crash. When that happens, I replace the bung with an airlock. This current season I did a wild batch that had blown the bung off when I checked it a couple hours later - I replaced it with an airlock and it took over 24 hours at near freezing temp for it to stop bubbling. But usually with an ale or wheat yeast, if you jam the gum stopper on real good, it wont be a problem. The stoppers dont seem to stick quite as well to glass tho, so if you are using glass, it might be better to keep the airlock on. Just dont use a 2 piece one or you could suck back some water.
 
the temp change causes the volume of liquid to shrink, and can therefore cause suckback of water from your airlock into your beverage
 
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