Exploring "no chill" brewing

chefchris said:

You know, I've been wondering ... wonder what the outcome would be if I added hops after the wort had cooled, say an hour after flameout. Seems like you could keep most of your aromatic oils that way. I don't know what the temperature is where you stop extracting bitterness, but it would be neat to know.

This might not make sense, but it does in my head.

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If you go back to BYO March '09 edition they had a chart published that showed hop isomerization at certain temps. It was what I loosely based my chart on. Above about 170F there is pretty noticeable isomerization taking place. This is why I am reluctant to place aroma hops in the hot wort, I am afraid that I would get more bitterness when in fact all I want is aroma.

Hey all I'm taking the plunge into No Chill. I just upgraded my 5 gallon kettle w/ a ball valve and a bazooka screen and I got the high temp. tubing (up to 275*). I also got two 2.5 gallon cubes from US plastics as mentioned by the OP. I will be doing partial boils and won't up the volume to 5 gallons till I pitch the yeast many days later.

Is there anything I missed? I know the hop schedule is different. I'll be reading through the rest of this thread as time allows. Has anyone come up with the longest you should let the unfermented wort sit?

i still dont get how adjust the hops if the orginal recipe calls for FWH. following this theory, i think you would get more bitterness with FWH regular verus FWH no-chill since fwh hops still get boiled for 60mins

bkov said:

i still dont get how adjust the hops if the orginal recipe calls for FWH. following this theory, i think you would get more bitterness with FWH regular verus FWH no-chill since fwh hops still get boiled for 60mins

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I dont know how you would get more bitterness in a regular FWH than you would in a NC FWH addition. Id think, it would be the other way around. That said, we are talking hops that are already being boiled for 60-90 minutes... what is the level of utilization above 60-90 minutes in the boil? Pretty small... so small that I have not adjusted my FWHing to make up for the extended time in the HOT wort. Also, since this is MY chart and it is only what "I" do... I boil for 90 minutes, always... so then the question is what is the additional utilization when you exceed 90 minutes? Nil.

I dunno, we have been using this chart for a while, try it out, any suggestions based on actual results that have been verified by several NC'ers will be incorporated.

I think that people forget, this is MY chart, this is what "I" do. The ONLY reason it is posted here is because people wanted to see how I was setting up MY hop additions. I suggest, if you have something that works for you, post it here and by all means keep doing it.

My chart has changed over time to a small degree. The results that others have posted while using are always taken into consideration. So, if you guys are using this chart, and it is NOT working for you, TELL ME... I will take it down and only use it for my own personal use.

The Pol said:

I think that people forget, this is MY chart, this is what "I" do. The ONLY reason it is posted here is because people wanted to see how I was setting up MY hop additions. I suggest, if you have something that works for you, post it here and by all means keep doing it.

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And I, for one, appreciate it. I still cube hop, but use the chart as a reference. I very rarely brew recipes exactly as printed anyway (variations in the malts, hops, yeast, etc, I have). Great resource, IMO.

Don't let the b*stards grind you down...

I use your chart and find it to be effective.

To change the subject slightly- I signed up at BeerSmith’s forum and asked if “no-chill” could be added as an option to the software. http://www.beersmith.com/forum/index.php?topic=2685.0

It’s been two days-nada- no comment. It’s unclear if the person who would answer isn’t around, or if they just don’t see the value of no-chill. If someone here is also on BeerSmith’s forum, perhaps you’ll want to chime in.

Chucke-

Just PM him here on the board... he is under the handle BeerSmith It might be good to start another thread and see what the response is on it.

Ah- good thinking.

It seems like BeerSmith could really simplify the no-chill process, perhaps make it more efficient. For example, couldn't the bittering hops be decreased in QTY rather than time?

chucke said:

Ah- good thinking.

It seems like BeerSmith could really simplify the no-chill process, perhaps make it more efficient. For example, couldn't the bittering hops be decreased in QTY rather than time?

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Yes and no... because as you move hops, you arent doing so to simply adjust the # of IBUs, but to retain the qualities that the hop addition provides. I am not so much concerned about the # IBUs, as I am about retaining the properties of the hop addition itself.

Sure you can use fewer hops in a 60 minute addition to get the same IBUs as you do in a 40 minute addition, but a 40 minute addition isnt only giving you bitterness, like a 60 minute addition will. Does that make sense?

If you are talking about bittering hops only... certainly. Again though, I built this chart based on how I brew, and I always boil for 90 minutes, meaning that I am already extracting as much bitterness as I can from my bittering additions. It would be cool to see this included in a software application, but I dont know if that will ever happen. There is A LOT of push back when it comes to no chill.

The Pol said:

If you are talking about bittering hops only... certainly. Again though, I built this chart based on how I brew, and I always boil for 90 minutes, meaning that I am already extracting as much bitterness as I can from my bittering additions. It would be cool to see this included in a software application, but I dont know if that will ever happen. There is A LOT of push back when it comes to no chill.

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This wasn't meant to diss your chart. I use it, it works... all good.

But regarding *just bittering hops*, for someone doing a 60 minute boil- instead of deducting 20 minutes from the boil time, why not add 20 minutes (in theory- just within one's brewing software) to the time one boils the bittering hops to arrive at the correct AAs? Then, boil for the correct time.

OK, granted, I'm a cheap bastard and will try to save a nickel where possible.

Anyone see a flaw?

chucke said:

This wasn't meant to diss your chart. I use it, it works... all good.

But regarding *just bittering hops*, for someone doing a 60 minute boil- instead of deducting 20 minutes from the boil time, why not add 20 minutes (in theory- just within one's brewing software) to the time one boils the bittering hops to arrive at the correct AAs? Then, boil for the correct time.

OK, granted, I'm a cheap bastard and will try to save a nickel where possible.

Anyone see a flaw?

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Like I said in my post... "If you are talking about bittering hops only... certainly. Again though, I built this chart based on how I brew, and I always boil for 90 minutes, meaning that I am already extracting as much bitterness as I can from my bittering additions. It would be cool to see this included in a software application, but I dont know if that will ever happen. There is A LOT of push back when it comes to no chill."

Yes, with purely bittering hops you can do that. You wont realize any appreciable difference in IBU utilization between say 60 and 80 minutes but there is no reason not to use that extra little bit of credit.

For example:
1oz of 12AA hops at 60 minutes is about 21.7 IBUs
1oz of 12AA hops at 80 minutes (no chill 60 min. addition) is about 22.9 IBUs

So, you effectively gained 1.2 IBUs, meaning that you could use .05oz less hops.

The Pol said:

Like I said in my post... "If you are talking about bittering hops only... certainly. Again though, I built this chart based on how I brew, and I always boil for 90 minutes, meaning that I am already extracting as much bitterness as I can from my bittering additions. It would be cool to see this included in a software application, but I dont know if that will ever happen. There is A LOT of push back when it comes to no chill."

Yes, with purely bittering hops you can do that. You wont realize any appreciable difference in IBU utilization between say 60 and 80 minutes but there is no reason not to use that extra little bit of credit.

For example:
1oz of 12AA hops at 60 minutes is about 21.7 IBUs
1oz of 12AA hops at 80 minutes (no chill 60 min. addition) is about 22.9 IBUs

So, you effectively gained 1.2 IBUs, meaning that you could use .05oz less hops.

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Makes sense, I noticed that late hop additions are moved to fWH. Do you really get any appreciable aromatics from a FWH? Do you use the 1/3 tech nique when FWH or do you put the entire bittering portion in FWH?

McCuckerson said:

Makes sense, I noticed that late hop additions are moved to fWH. Do you really get any appreciable aromatics from a FWH? Do you use the 1/3 tech nique when FWH or do you put the entire bittering portion in FWH?

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It is a little more complicated to explain, but I have ProMash set up to handle it for me.

You get flavor and some bittering with FWH... but if you look at the chart, the late hop additions(aroma) are moved to DRY HOP, for aroma purposes.

When I move things to FWH this is what happens.

I plug the addition into ProMash.
The earlier (bittering) additions are already installed into the ProMash recipe
ProMash credits FWH for a 30 mins of IBU utilization (this I set up in the software parameters)
I then install the FWH addition and adjust the qty so that I get the same # of IBUs in my recipe, that I would have originally.

Does that make sense? Basically I DO NOT use the 1/3 rule. When I move a late addition to FWH, I let ProMash tell me how much to move based on IBUs, and ProMash is giving me 30 mins. of utilization when I FWH.

The Pol said:

Like I said in my post... "If you are talking about bittering hops only... certainly. Again though, I built this chart based on how I brew, and I always boil for 90 minutes, meaning that I am already extracting as much bitterness as I can from my bittering additions. It would be cool to see this included in a software application, but I dont know if that will ever happen. There is A LOT of push back when it comes to no chill."

Yes, with purely bittering hops you can do that. You wont realize any appreciable difference in IBU utilization between say 60 and 80 minutes but there is no reason not to use that extra little bit of credit.

For example:
1oz of 12AA hops at 60 minutes is about 21.7 IBUs
1oz of 12AA hops at 80 minutes (no chill 60 min. addition) is about 22.9 IBUs

So, you effectively gained 1.2 IBUs, meaning that you could use .05oz less hops.

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Ah- looking at it 60-80 is flawed. Perhaps the key is looking at it 40-60?? I'll need to play with the numbers. There's probably not a lot of saving on a low IBU beer, but on an IIPA, one could save .25 ounce.

But this does bring up a point- it looks like you make an argument that for additions 60 minutes and longer, the difference is marginal. IOW, one needn't bother applying the chart.

chucke said:

Ah- looking at it 60-80 is flawed. Perhaps the key is looking at it 40-60?? I'll need to play with the numbers. There's probably not a lot of saving on a low IBU beer, but on an IIPA, one could save .25 ounce.

But this does bring up a point- it looks like you make an argument that for additions 60 minutes and longer, the difference is marginal. IOW, one needn't bother applying the chart.

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Exactly, but it makes it dummy proof. Some of this stuff is already hard enough to explain to those who didnt create it. KISS is my philosophy.

chucke said:

Ah- looking at it 60-80 is flawed. Perhaps the key is looking at it 40-60?? I'll need to play with the numbers. There's probably not a lot of saving on a low IBU beer, but on an IIPA, one could save .25 ounce.

But this does bring up a point- it looks like you make an argument that for additions 60 minutes and longer, the difference is marginal. IOW, one needn't bother applying the chart.

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The same hop addition above (1oz of 12AA) will provide a 1.9 IBU difference between 40 and 60 minutes. Keep in mind though that if you are boiling for 60 minutes and DO NOT move that addition (keep it at 60 and get credit for 80), you are only gaining 1.2 IBUs.

To clarify. If you have a recipe that calls for a 60 minute addition of 1oz of 12AA hops for 21.7 IBUs. By NOT moving the addition to 40 minutes in NC wort (according to chart) and keeping at 60 to gain the credit for 80 minutes you are gaining 1.2 IBUs.

To clarify. If you have a recipe that calls for a 40 minute addition of 1oz of 12AA hops for 19.0 IBUs. By NOT moving the addition to 20 minutes in NC wort (according to chart) and keeping at 40 to gain the credit for 60 minutes you are gaining 1.9 IBUs.

In either case you will save .1oz or less. But, if it is worth it to you... I say do it. This chart is just a guideline that I use. Also, as stated previously, these small changes make it almost useless to move move hop additions above 60 minutes in length... right, but it has proven difficult to explain this chart/process as it is... trying to keep it simple and to the point.

You are right though, on an IPA or something, you would save more ounces. But again, when I no chill, I boil for 90 minutes at a minimum, meaning that I extract no more regardless of what I do. This is my chart, depending on how you brew, you could probably make your own chart that fits your needs and works for you. This chart isnt here to be used as THE guidline, it is an example of MY guideline only, that fits how I brew. Someone who boils for 90 minutes at a min. will have a completely different view of bittering hop utilization than someone who boils for 60 min.

Added a small disclaimer to the hop adjustment chart.

Well, alright, but it looks like you’re taking discussions of no-chill techniques as attacks on your chart. Because someone says perhaps there’s another way to go about it doesn’t mean they’re attacking your work. As any good Chinese cook can attest; there’s more than one way to skin a cat.

If I'm mistaken, so be it. And this isn't written to cause offense.

I decided to give the no-chill thing a shot with a small batch of saison a while back. I tried to follow all the guidelines, etc. My wort was below 180F in no time, after which I transferred to the fermenter and let it sit overnight before checking the temp, and pitching the yeast to get it going.


I opened one last night to try, and it has horrible vegetable and sulfur aromas. It is a sulfur orgy in a bottle. I'm not sure exactly what the differences are between what I'm doing and what everyone else is doing, but there's no way I'm calling that experiment a success. This is the first time I've really had any problems with those types of aromas and flavors. In my previous experience judging beers, I have been wondering how brewers even managed to get their beers to taste like that because mine have never come close to that. Now I guess I know. Although I suppose it's possible my choice of yeast (WLP566 Saison II) may have played a role, I think I'm going to continue using my chiller when brewing, because it doesn't really save enough time for me to want to try it again. I have to spend an extra 15-20 minutes chilling, and maybe a few minutes setting up and cleaning the IC. So, my brewday takes 30 minutes longer than it potentially might. I can live with that.

Weirdboy, what was your grainbill?

Grain bill (3 gallon batch size)

3.00 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 50.00 %
1.00 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 16.67 %
1.00 lb Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM) Grain 16.67 %
0.50 lb Wheat, Raw, Winter Red (1.7 SRM) Grain 8.33 %

Just in case anyone is interested, I did a 90 minute boil.

Interesting results, though with all of the success that people have doing NC, I have a hard time chalking up a failed brew to the use of NC.

It isnt for everyone, but it is all that I have done this year and have had great success brewing beers that I have brewed multiple times in the past, coming out the same as they did when I used an IC.

I have a wheat beer on tap that was brewed with about 50% Pilsner malt that turned out fantastic. I have brewed this beer several times prior with an IC, but noticed no difference with the NC technique.

FWIW, there is a guy here that does A LOT of Pilsner based brews and has reported great success with his NC beers. He has posted here, maybe he will chime in.

I'm not definitively pointing the finger at NC, as there were other variables such as the fact that it was my first time doing a saison and the fermentation temps were out of my comfort zone, albeit appropriate for the style and yeast strain. What I would normally do is just redo the recipe without the no-chill to see if the results turn out similar. However, the yeast in question is a seasonal so I can't do the exact same recipe now. I might just try culturing a strain from the Saison Rue bottle in my fridge.

Did my first no chill today, it is sitting inside cooling, I will give it over night and drop it in the cooler to ferment.

Right now the surface of my 6 gallon winpak is about 110 degrees. The vessel seems to be slowly shrinking, as expected. If I didn't know better I would think it would explode/crack and leak everywhere, glad others did the leg work, I would probably have to open it and let the suction die down a little out of fear. How much can I expect the winpak to shrink?

Whatever the case, thanks to everyone who has done this before me! It went great and clean up was a breeze.

avaserfi said:

Did my first no chill today, it is sitting inside cooling, I will give it over night and drop it in the cooler to ferment.

Right now the surface of my 6 gallon winpak is about 110 degrees. The vessel seems to be slowly shrinking, as expected. If I didn't know better I would think it would explode/crack and leak everywhere, glad others did the leg work, I would probably have to open it and let the suction die down a little out of fear. How much can I expect the winpak to shrink?

Whatever the case, thanks to everyone who has done this before me! It went great and clean up was a breeze.

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About this much... congrats on your success!

Thanks for all the help, can't wait to pitch the yeast and get this thing going. It has been months since I have had a chance to brew. No chill really helped with the time issues. Now all I have left is unscrew a cap, toss in some yeast and put an airlock on. Easy.

weirdboy said:

I'm not definitively pointing the finger at NC, as there were other variables such as the fact that it was my first time doing a saison and the fermentation temps were out of my comfort zone, albeit appropriate for the style and yeast strain. What I would normally do is just redo the recipe without the no-chill to see if the results turn out similar. However, the yeast in question is a seasonal so I can't do the exact same recipe now. I might just try culturing a strain from the Saison Rue bottle in my fridge.

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You can definitely culture that yeast, but keep in mind there's Brett in those bottles. If you can still find Trade Winds (their summer seasonal), it's the same yeast sans Brett. I just did my first no chill last week. Did you taste your saison along the way and notice those flavors, or did that only begin to appear after it was bottled?

So I read through this entire thread last night...... yeah took forever. I was wondering if anyone had a link for the aussie homebrewing forum where they are discussing this. Everyone mentions the aussie forum but I don't remember seeing a link. Just researching this to possibly try it in the future but would like more info if possible.

Scut_Monkey said:

So I read through this entire thread last night...... yeah took forever. I was wondering if anyone had a link for the aussie homebrewing forum where they are discussing this. Everyone mentions the aussie forum but I don't remember seeing a link. Just researching this to possibly try it in the future but would like more info if possible.

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wiki

discussion

Thanks Chucke

weirdboy said:

I opened one last night to try, and it has horrible vegetable and sulfur aromas. It is a sulfur orgy in a bottle. I'm not sure exactly what the differences are between what I'm doing and what everyone else is doing, but there's no way I'm calling that experiment a success. This is the first time I've really had any problems with those types of aromas and flavors.

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Did you aerate your wort prior to pitching your yeast?

I brewed a NC Sunday night. I cut the flame and drained into my winpak right at 200F+. The winpak sucked in like a rotten pumpkin, but in the end all went well. Should I have waited until the wort was cooler? To me that cancels out the time savings of not chilling. If this works, then I am sold.

My experience is that draining the wort right after flameout is best. It provides the best sanitizing temperature, and is part of the purpose of No-Chill brewing.

Good luck! I have two no-chills under my belt. Just Waiting to drink one of them now!

Did you aerate your wort prior to pitching your yeast?

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Yes, I aerated for a few minutes with a whisk just before pitching. Same method I have used in the past on other batches, so I don't think it was an aeration problem. The fermenter had a nice head of foam develop during aeration, and the yeast took off within a couple of hours after pitching.

1. How are you aerating your wort after it cools before pitching your yeast?

2. I brew 10 or 20 gallons at a time, and ferment in a chest freezer at 67 degrees. My concern is getting 20 gallons down to temp in the hot Texas weather. Will adding that much heat load to the freezer all at once cause any problems?

3. As related to #2, I assume it would be a big mistake to put hot wort in a fermenter that contains active fermentations under way. I could see this causing the temperature of the freezer dipping quite cold while trying to bring down the hot wort, but I would like to have the benefit of your experience and thoughts on this matter.

BTW, kudo's on the good brews and open mind to try new things.

BigdogMark said:

1. How are you aerating your wort after it cools before pitching your yeast?

2. I brew 10 or 20 gallons at a time, and ferment in a chest freezer at 67 degrees. My concern is getting 20 gallons down to temp in the hot Texas weather. Will adding that much heat load to the freezer all at once cause any problems?

3. As related to #2, I assume it would be a big mistake to put hot wort in a fermenter that contains active fermentations under way. I could see this causing the temperature of the freezer dipping quite cold while trying to bring down the hot wort, but I would like to have the benefit of your experience and thoughts on this matter.

BTW, kudo's on the good brews and open mind to try new things.

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1. you can aerate in any fashion that you would use if you were to use a chiller once the wort has cooled.

2. I brew large batches as well. Instead of loading your freezer, just leave the cubes in the closet, or in the garage or whatever for a day or so until they are ambient temp. THEN you can throw them in your fermentation chiller/freezer/whatever. Remember, with no chill there is no rush in chilling the wort.

3. Yes, it is a big mistake to add any yeast to hot wort, wait until it has gotten to your fermentation temperature before pitching. EDIT: read the question wrong, long day and I started drinking refer back to #2 instead.

What he said.....

BigdogMark said:

1. How are you aerating your wort after it cools before pitching your yeast?

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If I’m fermenting in the cube/winpak, I open the lid and let in some air. Then close it back and roll it around a bit... then pitch.

If I’m fermenting in another container, I just up-end the cube into the bucket or carboy... then pitch.

So apparently I can get sufficient oxygen into the wort for the yeast without pouring into another fermemter. I don't really want to go back to an aeration stone if I can avoid it. I was just concerned there would be too little oxygen on the wort after it cooled down.

I understand I can't pitch hot. That wasn't the thought in #3. Rather I wondered about what happens if I placed a relatively warm container of wort into the fermentation chamber. That is likely to to cause the freezer to start cooling to counter the heat load, which could take another fermentation already in progress too cold.

BigdogMark said:

Rather I wondered about what happens if I placed a relatively warm container of wort into the fermentation chamber. That is likely to to cause the freezer to start cooling to counter the heat load, which could take another fermentation already in progress too cold.

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Sure, you could- but why rush it? Why not just sit the container in a shady spot and let it reach ambient temp- then put it into your fermentation chamber? IOW, let nature take care of most of the temp change.