Efficiency

It has been a while since i have posted on this site, but I find there is a good bit of knowledge hanging around here, and I have been getting pretty frustrated with my brewing.

I have been brewing for about 2 years now and have been brewing all grain for about 1.5 years. I like to think I have a pretty good understanding of what is going on throughout the processes involved, i.e. mashing, sparging, and the actual brewing. I use beersmith to build my recipes and my beers usually taste pretty good. I use a standard 48 quart ice chest for a mash/lauter tun and a 30 quart stainless steel turkey fryer for a brew kettle. I buy my grain from my local homebrew supply shop and he crushes the grain for me. I always brew within a day or two of crushing. I think my longest has been maybe 4 days from crush to brew.

My problem is I can't get decent efficiency...Wait, correction, I can't get consistent efficiency. It is really mind boggling to me. I use the same process, I don't adjust the software, yet, my effeciencies run from 50-80%. Its really not that big of a deal when I do larger beers, because I tend to stay in the style, but session beers are tough. And, how am I supposed to get any consistent recipes when my beers come out different every time?

I realize I am not using a top of the line system, but I would think I could get some consistency with my system.

Please, any advice would help.

Thanks,
J

Do you ever change your process or tweak it from one brew to the next? I repeat the exact same steps for every brew regardless of the style or size. I also found a great sway on efficiency when I was getting my grain milled at the LHBS, after getting a mill I am rock solid in consistency with my brews.

Thanks. Yeah, I'm working on convincing the wife that I need my own mill. Its tough with the new baby and all, but that is definitely something I've been looking into and its good to know that is something i can look at for some hope.

Have you compared your thermometer with a lab grade one? It's possible that you are mashing one at 145 and the next at 158 while your thermometer is reading 152. That alone would get you lots of variation in efficiency.

My thesis on efficiency problems is as follows:

1) are you completely sure your ingredients are properly weighed?
2) are you completely sure your volumes are incredibly accurate (aka, don't use the ale pail factory markings)
3) are you completely sure your temperatures are accurate (aka, calibrated thermometers)
4) are you completely sure your gravity readings are accurate (aka, calibrated & temp corrected numbers from your hydrometer and/or refractometer)

If any of the above are off - all of the water profiles, crushes, process', water volume adjustments for temp, etc. won't matter...

I'm convinced that mis-meaurement (temp, volume, weight, gravity) is the cause of "help, my efficiency sucks" 90% of the time...

In my experience, no part of the process (outside calculating errors [i.e. mis-weighing grains]) effects efficiency calculations more than your crush. I had the worst efficiency numbers until I broke down and built a pasta roller grain mill (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/using-pasta-maker-mill-grain-75784/). I've hit 80-82% on all 5 brews since I started using it. My total investment (not counting the drill I use to grind) was less than $50.

How do you guys accurately measure the volumes of liquid you are putting in the kettle for mash and sparge?

MikeRoBrew1 said:

How do you guys accurately measure the volumes of liquid you are putting in the kettle for mash and sparge?

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calibrated sight glass on the kettle, calibrated ale pails (I use a known gallon amount of water, then mark with a sharpie on the pail)

There really aren't many factors contributing to efficiency. Here is my list for batch sparging.

1. Crush - access to starches has the biggest impact.
2. Draining the tun completely - dead space will take points away.
3. Stir the sparge completely - all runnings should be of consistent gravity.
4. pH during conversion - ph during lauter is not going to have much effect on BHE but proper pH will make higher quality wort.
   
   

Wow, thanks everyone.

1. Thermometers - I usually use either a clip on dial thermometer and/or my digital meat thermometer in my kettle, then I use a mercury type floating thermometer in my mash tun. They seem to all read around the same, so I have to assume they are accurate.

2. Weights and volumes - I'm pretty sure all ingredients are weighed properly. I usually pull and weigh my own grains at the shop. Of course, thats assuming his scale is accurate. Its a nice digital scale. I feel comfortable with it. As far as volumes of water, I heat up the volume of water in my kettle and then just pour it in the mash tun on the grain. I usually go a little over to make up for any evaporation. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see how the volume of water is that important (in the mash). I mean, the important thing is to 1) hold the grain at a certain temperature to activate the enzymes, and 2) hold it for a certain amount of time so that most sugars are converted. It seems to me that if you were short on water in the mash/lauter tun, you would just get a more concentrated wort, which you can correct with top up. Of course, that is assuming you get decent wash with your sparge. (which I actually think might be my biggest problem)

3. Gravity - I use a standard hydrometer and use the converter in beersmith to adjust for temperature.

Man, I certainly appreciate the insight. Keep it coming, please.

The volume that counts for BHE is what is left in the kettle.

With batch sparging washing your grain (launtering) is as simple as stiring it. If your fly sparging you could have channeling problems.

Read Kia's website at braukiser.com. You wont find more information about BHE anywhere else.

jamen46 said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see how the volume of water is that important (in the mash).

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Your volumes are extremely important, especially in troubleshooting efficiency.

If your efficiency sucks, you are likely either losing it through conversion (% of potential sugars actually converted during the mash) or through lauter (% of actual converted sugars captured in the kettle).

So, if you don't know your mash ratio (lb/qt usually), you can't possibly know your conversion efficiency; which IMO opinion is the first step in troubleshooting efficiency problems...

Do you use a braid as a manifold?

AZ- Let me phrase that differently, I don't see why the volume of water that you add into the mash tun for the mash has to be very precise. I mean, the key is to get the sugars converted, out of the mash tun and into the brew kettle. Whether you used 9 gallons or 12 gallons to get that out shouldn't make any difference. You may just have to boil for longer once in the kettle if you are over, or top up if you are under, but as long as you removed all the converted sugars, you are all good. I mean, am I way off?

Bendbrewer- No, I use cpvc with holes drilled in it. That is probably a trouble spot also. I'm probably losing a lot of wort in the tun because of dead space in the bottom.

But, this is all low efficiency problems, not erratic efficiency problems.

I used the braid and ran into consistency problems after about 5 brews with it as you described. They all went away when I got rid of that thing and went to a manifold.

Guess I can't be of any help then.

But you do say losing a lot of wort in the tun???? My manifold lays on the bottom of my cooler and it sucks the MLT dry. Are you siphoning out? You shouldn't be leaving much wort behind at all.

You know, I say I'm losing some in the mash tun, but I really don't know. I probably get a good bit out the way i have it. I just say that because, I know the spout in an ice chest is not all the way on the bottom and I'm not sure how much of a siphon it creates to actually draw the liquid out that can't gravity flow out.

If you leave wort back in the tun, you're leaving potential efficiency in the tun as well.

Two things that I always keep in mind while brewing - 1. I want a fine crush. 2. Drain that tun dry.

You do those two things and you should be in pretty good shape. There are certainly other factors that can effect efficiency, but those two are most important imo.

One other thought, your best efficiency on a batch sparge typically comes from half your boil volume coming from the mash and the other half coming from the sparge. Make sure you have your brew program setup to plan like this. If not, feel free to download my Brew Chart located in my signature below as it will help you as well. It also is set up to help trouble shoot efficiency as well during your brewday which I find quite useful.

Good luck.

cp

jamen46 said:

You know, I say I'm losing some in the mash tun, but I really don't know. I probably get a good bit out the way i have it. I just say that because, I know the spout in an ice chest is not all the way on the bottom and I'm not sure how much of a siphon it creates to actually draw the liquid out that can't gravity flow out.

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Test it with just water. If your manifold rests on the bottom of the cooler and you siphon, it will draw out that extra water that a simple gravity feed won't.

jamen46 said:

AZ- Let me phrase that differently, I don't see why the volume of water that you add into the mash tun for the mash has to be very precise. I mean, the key is to get the sugars converted, out of the mash tun and into the brew kettle. Whether you used 9 gallons or 12 gallons to get that out shouldn't make any difference. You may just have to boil for longer once in the kettle if you are over, or top up if you are under, but as long as you removed all the converted sugars, you are all good. I mean, am I way off?

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Yes - volume is needed to calculate efficiency, but more importantly to trouble shoot efficiency problems.

Give this a read:

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Understanding_Efficiency

and this:

http://www.howtobrew.com/section2/chapter12-5.html

Awesome. Thanks again!!

As Conroe asked, are you fly sparging, or batch sparging?
If you are fly sparging in a large rectangular cooler, you will have a very shallow grain bed depth (especially with session beers). This shallow depth will encourage channeling and could cause your efficiencies to vary considerably from batch to batch.
This is not an issue with batch sparging providing you stir really well after each addition of sparge water, but even with a batch sparge, a shallow grain bed depth could result in uneven efficiency if you don't stir well before draining.

That's all I can think of.

-a.

jamen46 said:

3. Gravity - I use a standard hydrometer and use the converter in beersmith to adjust for temperature.

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The charts used to correct gravity are unreliable above about 90F. Cool the sample to below that, preferably all the way to 60F (or to whatever your hydrometer is calibrated at - usually 60F). Your erratic efficiencies could simply be from the temp correction...

EDIT: a cheap refractometer is invaluable IMO, so you can fairly quickly determine the SG of wort on the brewday. They don't require temp correction, and the sample drops cool really quickly so they're in the temp range of an auto temp compensating refractometer. The cheap ones from hong kong are like $20. Make sure you get one for brewing sugars (think they're 0 to 32 brix).

Yes - volume is needed to calculate efficiency, but more importantly to trouble shoot efficiency problems.

Give this a read:

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Understanding_Efficiency

and this:

http://www.howtobrew.com/section2/chapter12-5.html

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I can not tell you how helpful these links were. Thanks again.

As Conroe asked, are you fly sparging, or batch sparging?

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I batch sparge. I usually do 2 sparges with 168F water, stir it really well and let it soak for 10 minutes each.

a cheap refractometer is invaluable IMO

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Yes. This is another one of those gadgets that I intend to purchase. Its just that there are a bunch of other things I felt like I needed to get first. Maybe I'll have to push it closer to the front of the list.

I don't feel a refractometer is all that important. It's a luxury. A hydrometer works fine. I pull a sample in a coffee cup and put it in the freezer. In about 20 minutes I have a accurate reading. It's fast enough I can make adjustment if I have too. Fortunately I have consistency down to the point where I don't really need the reading anyway. It is more important when using new base malts.

MikeRoBrew1 said:

How do you guys accurately measure the volumes of liquid you are putting in the kettle for mash and sparge?

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I weigh everything. I have a good digital scale and I work in SI units, so it's easy - 1l of water weighs 1kg. If you're using imperial units it's not quite that simple, but still easy to calculate the weight of the water you need.