dead yeast, what now?

i also have a similar thread on the nb forum, but their forum seems to not get a ton of traffic and any advice i have gotten does not seem to be from the most experienced brewers so i bring this here.
i brewed the nb extract bavarian heffeveissen kit on the 30th using the appropriate wyeast liguid pack. this is my second ever brew and my first one turned out fine, but i am onto 36+ hours in the fermentor at this time and my yeast had fallen to form a yeast cake since the first time i checked it 12 hours in with zero airlock activity at that time. that is the point i started to get slightly worried. i then had a short period where my airlock was actually drawing air into the carboy for awhile and then it stopped again. i just now took a hydrometer reading, my og after boil and aeration was 1.048 right on the money for what the directions said, but now after 36+ hours my reading is coming out to 1.055. i am going to go ahead and assume that my yeast is dead.
i have only 3 theories that i can think of that caused this.
1. i had my yeast pack sanitizing in too warm of water, ~115f for 10-20 minutes
2. i used a slightly different process to top off my carboy. after i cooled my wort in an ice bath to being only warm to the touch, i poured in. i then boiled 3 gallons of tap water and also cooled much slower in my sink to slightly warmer than what the wort was bc at this point my wort had 30-40 minutes to further cool. when done and topped off i was at a nice warm temp for my hydro reading maybe 80-90.
3. the yeast was dead before i even got it.

anyways i now have some questions about where to go from here.
how long will my wort hold for without repitching?
should i remove my wort off the old yeast cake? maybe boil it again if necessary?

Repitch the yeast, I think you killed it in the water bath @ 115 for 20mins.

72 hours. wait that long before worrying. don't sanitize your yeast at extreme temps for extended periods of time. don't assume posters at another site are inexperienced if you don't give them 1/2 a chance. I happen to know quite a few of the regular posters on NB are quite experienced and could give you a universe of advice.

Get one of these: Digital Thermometer. They are calibrated and come with a calibration sheet, don't guess on temps.

Sanitize the yeast pack with liquid sanitizer, not heat.

Remember to adjust your hydro readings for temp, most are calibrated at 60F.

advice to relax is kind of hard to handle when i knew something was wrong in the first place. my gravity readings proved me right on that one. my main concern being i have no idea how long unfermented wort will hold for, and didn't/don't want to risk a ruined batch because of infection.

carbonzx said:

i have only 3 theories that i can think of that caused this.
1. i had my yeast pack sanitizing in too warm of water, ~115f for 10-20 minutes

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I have to ask... Why did you do this?? What are you using for a sanitizer for everything else?? If you're not already using a no-rinse sanitizer, like Star San, change to it.

Most of us will either dunk the pouch of yeast in the Star San solution bucket, or spray the outside of the pouch before opening it up.

Pasteurization begins at 140F, so there's a chance your move only pissed the yeast off. As already mentioned, don't repitch until it's been 72 hours from when you originally pitched the yeast.

IF you practiced good sanitation methods, then the wort should be ok. If not, [chances are] it's buggered no matter what you do.

I doubt that 115 degrees would kill the yeast.
As to the gravity. It is impossible that your OG went up. Uneven mix of the wort or temperature difference would make that difference.

What temperature is the wort at now? Too low will make the yeast go dormant. That would take less than 60 degrees.

Raise the temperature to near 70 degrees and see what happens.

You should also look into making starters. That would tell you if your yeast is viable before you pitch and also ensure that you are pitching the proper amount of yeast. Pitching too little yeast will cause an increase in lag time before the fermentation gets started. Look for no change gravity to decide that there is no fermentation. Airlock activity is unreliable.

Check out mrmalty.com and yeastcalc.com.

If the yeast is dead I suspect you purchased it that way.

I would not re-pitch until you have no action for 72 hours.
If you do have to re-pitch, do it soon thereafter. You do not need to transfer off what is already there.

Good luck.

The wort was probably too warm when you checked it. It needs to be 60 degrees for an accurate hydrometer reading. Hotter wort is thinner. Your yeast is fine. There is nothing wrong with it at all. You haven't waited long enough to see that. In the future don't put your yeast in hot water.

carbonzx said:

advice to relax is kind of hard to handle when i knew something was wrong in the first place. my gravity readings proved me right on that one. my main concern being i have no idea how long unfermented wort will hold for, and didn't/don't want to risk a ruined batch because of infection.

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you are worrying too much. as been stated more than once, wait 72 hours. no activity? re-pitch. maybe the skilled brewers are trying to tell you something with this whole "relax" thing, eh?

I do hope you're not judging fermentation/yeast activity by airlock activity. There have been plenty of cases where the airlock hasn't done a damned thing, but the beer fermented fully anyway. Especially when buckets are used, since the lids can [sometimes] be a total PITA to get to seal fully.

i did not try to have my yeast in my sani bucket for that long i just forgot about it for a little bit. i fill my bottling bucket up to 5gal with warmest tap water i can get > then throw tubes and utensils in > then transfer into carboy > let sit > and then transfer back to bottling bucket. i did this with 30 minutes left in boil, by the time i threw my yeast in it was a bit warm but nothing scalding.
at 12 hours my fermentation temp was at 72f and i have been told that the actual temp inside the carboy is usually 4-5 degrees hotter, so i figured i was in too warm an area with carboy for proper fermentation and moved it to a colder part of my house and since then i have been around 62.
as i was trying to explain this to the nb forum, i just didn't feel like they were hearing me and the responses i have gotten here so far are much better and faster.

Well, yeah, it's 'cause we give a sheet...

I would hold off on putting yeast packs in the Star San solution until you're about to use them. Also get a fermometer onto the side of the fermenting vessel so you have a better idea of what's going on in there. If you're able to chill to the right pitching temp (I aim for at least the low end of a strain's range, if not below it) then the temperature will tell you a lot. You can have a temperature increase (above ambient) when the yeast are going at it. Even with cooler starting temps and low ambient temps. Right now my basement is at 46F on the unfinished side and 50F on the finished side (it goes no higher than 54F). At the most, I'll put the next fermenting vessel on the finished side. These temps are really good for the yeast strains I use (English strains).

With a thermowell going into the wort, I can get a temperature reading that's as good as you can get. I used that to determine when my big English barleywine was done fermenting. It was above ambient for about 2 months. Then it went to ambient. Guess what? It's done. :rockin: I need to pull a gravity sample at some point and get to aging it. The target was 15.3% ABV (used WLP099)...

I read the posts over there, son. same advice on both boards. if you're not hearing what you want to hear, then all advice will fall on deaf ears. if you're so worried, re-pitch.

helibrewer said:

Remember to adjust your hydro readings for temp, most are calibrated at 60F.

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I love the way you said this.

bottlebomber said:

In the future don't put your yeast in hot water.

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This.

Golddiggie said:

I do hope you're not judging fermentation/yeast activity by airlock activity. There have been plenty of cases where the airlock hasn't done a damned thing, but the beer fermented fully anyway. Especially when buckets are used, since the lids can [sometimes] be a total PITA to get to seal fully.

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And this. And you'd have to watch an airlock 24/7 to know it's not bubbling. But I hear ya. Not seeing vigorous activity makes me wonder too. After a few brews, you'll feel better about it.

i did a search on this board about dead yeast and it seems i am not the only one to have ever done this. i also found some good relevant info.
yes it sounds like my og was taken at a diff temp than my gravity today so yea that accounts for the difference i suppose.
sorry i don't consider rdwhahb a very thought out informative answer to the questions i was asking.
end of story, i think it's dead from sani bath but nothing i can do today anyways, tomorrow i will hit that 72 hour mark and i will see what is going on with it then, if i have to go spend 20 bucks on gas to buy another pack of yeast so be it.

carbonzx said:

i did a search on this board about dead yeast and it seems i am not the only one to have ever done this. i also found some good relevant info.
yes it sounds like my og was taken at a diff temp than my gravity today so yea that accounts for the difference i suppose.
sorry i don't consider rdwhahb a very thought out informative answer to the questions i was asking.
end of story, i think it's dead from sani bath but nothing i can do today anyways, tomorrow i will hit that 72 hour mark and i will see what is going on with it then, if i have to go spend 20 bucks on gas to buy another pack of yeast so be it.

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I still hope you're not judging just off of airlock activity. It's NOT a 'magical fermentation meter'... LOOK at the surface of the wort/beer. Shine a light across it (on an angle). If you see tiny bubbles there, guess what... You've got live yeast. Just give them some more TIME to do what they need to. Also, if you didn't oxygenate the wort well, that would/could account for the extended lag phase. Putting stressed yeast into a low O2 environment means they're going to have a longer lag phase.

carbonzx said:

sorry i don't consider rdwhahb a very thought out informative answer to the questions i was asking.
end of story, i think it's dead from sani bath but nothing i can do today anyways

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Well forgive us if we aren't freaking out over your beer, but there are only about 5000 noob posts a day asking questions similar to this. At the beginning it seems so tricky to make beer, but you will understand very quickly that it's nearly impossible to NOT make beer. I'm glad the HBS is closed today, because I'll bet you a beer that by this time tomorrow your beer is fermenting on it's own.

carbonzx said:

sorry i don't consider rdwhahb a very thought out informative answer to the questions i was asking.

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that is THE thought out informative answer. stop & listen. 72 hours before worrying.

Billy-Klubb said:

that is THE thought out informative answer. stop & listen. 72 hours before worrying.

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In the eternal words of the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy...

DON'T PANIC!

bottlebomber said:

Well forgive us if we aren't freaking out over your beer, but there are only about 5000 noob posts a day asking questions similar to this. At the beginning it seems so tricky to make beer, but you will understand very quickly that it's nearly impossible to NOT make beer. I'm glad the HBS is closed today, because I'll bet you a beer that by this time tomorrow your beer is fermenting on it's own.

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Ill take that bet.

carbonzx said:

Ill take that bet.

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you just enjoy your quaint adventure in home brewing. ask away with any questions on your process. I just hope that you'll calm down & take the advice given, tulip. keeping a level head is one of the most important things in home brewing. or you can just join another board and bash the other 2 for trying to help. there are plenty other great brewers willing to help. lord knows I'm done with you.

Billy-Klubb said:

you just enjoy your quaint adventure in home brewing. ask away with any questions on your process. I just hope that you'll calm down & take the advice given, tulip. keeping a level head is one of the most important things in home brewing. or you can just join another board and bash the other 2 for trying to help. there are plenty other great brewers willing to help. lord knows I'm done with you.

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Idk why you are so hostile. All i ever said is that nb forum seems to get low traffick and most the answers i was getting weren't thought out or informative. I am a mechanical thinker and if someone who doesn't know about cars hears a different noise in thier car and they think something might be wrong when they tell me about it i dont tell them to relax until something breaks. I inquire back to give them back any useful knowledge i might have. I see the two as very similar so if you want to take anything i said as bad mouthing feel free because thats not the case.

How're the dead yeast doing today?

Ok i will admit egg on my face at this point. At 72 hours and after i bought another pack of 3068 wyeast just today, i am finally getting some activity. Its not much but enough to make me want to hold off on adding yeast... So i will see what happens. I possibly killed a good amount of it but its coming back after some serious lag.
Do yeast reproduce while in beer? i may have had a low cell count due to that sani bath and now they are reproducing and cominy back?....

@bottle bomber-if it ends up turning out i will hold up my end abd send a bottle. Let me give it another day and i will update.

Absolutely yeast reproduce in beer. That's what they do. That's what a yeast starter is is a very small batch of highly oxygenated beer that the yeast thrive in, doubling, tripling their numbers. By the time a 5 gallon batch of beer is fermented out you have grown a couple pounds of yeast cells. Glad you're starting to see some action.

Its a beautiful thing isnt it

So since the yeast died is this some zombie beer?

bottlebomber said:

So since the yeast died is this some zombie beer?

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Either that or they were just hiding the evidence to see how bad carbonzx would freak out.

BTW, carbonzx, I believe I see a bunch of yeast giving you the bird in that carboy. That's for not believing in them. :cross:

Glad to see the beer fermented.

derbycitybrewer said:

Glad to see the beer fermented.

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Not so fast! It hasn't even gotten infected, or not carbonated yet.

Ya ya ya lol. I just need to figure out what kit to buy next to use my wyeast pack on. I was thinking nb's cream ale kit might be good with heffeveissen yeast.

Actually man, don't feel pressured to use that smack pack, it will last for months. Also, you've got tons of hef zombie yeast you can pitch straight from your fermenter once that batch is done I'll bet if you did a cream ale on the cold end of the yeasts tolerance it would do just find though.

bottlebomber said:

Actually man, don't feel pressured to use that smack pack, it will last for months. Also, you've got tons of hef zombie yeast you can pitch straight from your fermenter once that batch is done I'll bet if you did a cream ale on the cold end of the yeasts tolerance it would do just find though.

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I've used smack packs that were several months old before. Just make a starter, or two (or three) stepped starter and use that bad boy when you brew something that will work with the yeast.