Southern Tier Pumking Clone??

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Mine is ready to bottle/keg. It's good but I would skip the extract next year, leaves a coating on the roof of my mouth.
 
Mine's been in the fermenter (66F) exactly 7 days now, and it's STILL going strong, bubbling once per second. I wonder if this thing's ever gonna finish. Def a long ferm time.

I can't wait to sample it once it finishes and I xfer to keg to finish spicing.
 
Has anyone who has bottled this tried priming with brown sugar? Can anyone offer input or results?
 
hopbrad said:
cracked my first one after 12 days in the bottle. there was almost no carbonation, 2 weeks til the party. i hope it carbs up by then. otherwise it was pretty decent. a little forward on some of the flavor and alcohol taste but that should mellow with time.
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Which of the 3 secondary additions would you reduce if any? Racking to secondary on Monday...:)
 
It's been a little over a week since I added the graham cracker/vanilla/pumpkin spice tincture and it smells more like ginger snap cookies than pumpkin pie. It isn't a bad thing, it's just not what I was hoping for.
 
Here is the recipe:

Caramel_Pecan.jpg
 
Grabbed a growler of Pumking today and pulled a small sample out of the fermenter today. Color is very close, homebrew has a little more aroma and more vanilla notes as well as Graham cracker. It is starting to mellow out nicely and will be very close once carbonated. I will probably bottle tomorrow so will update again in a few weeks.

ForumRunner_20120915_153103.jpg
 
Any chance we can get a consensus on this thread? I've been following it forever and it's beginning to get a little difficult to find the pages with actual recipes. Basically, if you have brewed this can you list the recipe and your results? ...or link to where you've already done it? I hope that's not asking too much.

For instance. Skeezer, I like where you're going with that pic but have no idea what recipe you used.
 
I went with the recipe on pg20 with a couple little modifications. My advice is dont use a whole tsp or graham cracker extract at once, maybe .25 then add to taste.
 
skeezerpleezer said:
I went with the recipe on pg20 with a couple little modifications. My advice is dont use a whole tsp or graham cracker extract at once, maybe .25 then add to taste.
Click to expand...

This.
 
sivdrinks said:
This.
Click to expand...

Indeed. That graham cracker extract is nasty stuff. 0.25 tsp is a good start, but I'm not convinced that any amount of that stuff will be ok in beer.

And the spice levels in the p. 20 post seem way too high, as others commented. For sure nobody has figured out the right spices and amounts. For example, there's definitely no cinnamon in Pumking, yet all the recipes here call for it.

Without doubt, We have not yet cloned Pumking.
 
Galloway737 said:
Which of the 3 secondary additions would you reduce if any? Racking to secondary on Monday...:)
Click to expand...
i would reduce the vanilla, i cracked another one this weekend and it was still not carbed up but the vanilla was too overpowering. it tasted better before i added the vanilla and graham cracker extract. i think those 2 flavors are too forward and harsh and take away from the other spices. i would go very light on the vanilla and graham cracker. im hoping those 2 flavors mellow with time, and then when it carbs up, that should help out too, right now a flat, high gravity, sweet beer isnt to tastey.
 
i've been watching this thread for a while, and i am a little troubled by the huge differences between "this is almost an exact clone" and "this isnt even close."

i am thinking about working from the recipe from page 20, but instead using 1 can of the pumpkin sludge (perhaps coated with honey and baked?), 2 cinnamon sticks, 2 vanilla beans in unflavored vodka and .25 tsp of the graham cracker extract.

am i missing anything else here?
 
Why are you guys still screwing around with the graham cracker extract? That's not the stuff. I'm telling you, someone just try what I mentioned previously in the below quoted post and you will be there. Just remember to GO LIGHT"!

KingBrianI said:
After a bit of experimentation today, I'm pretty sure I've found the secret to Pumking. The graham cracker flavor many attribute to the beer has always sounded a bit off to me. While I can see how people could describe it that way, a much better descriptor for me would be cap'n crunch cereal, as I've mentioned before. But what flavor extract do you use to get that cap'n crunch flavor? That was the big question. I'd spotted a butter and nut flavoring on a website last year and thought that might be somewhat close, but I didn't want to order up a bottle just on that hunch. But that flavoring is exactly what I saw when walking around the grocery store today. It's called "Vanilla butter and nut" flavoring, so I picked up a bottle to experiment with since it was only a few bucks. Undiluted, it smells just like buttercream frosting. Like cupcakes or something, basically. But when diluted in a beer, it has that exact same aroma as pumking. And it does the same thing to the flavor.

This stuff is STRONG, though. Like 1 drop in 12 oz is too much, strong. I recommend some of you do what I did and pick up a bottle to experiment with. I added it to my cream ale at about a drop per 12 oz and it was too strong. When I had drunk that mostly down I topped it off again with cream ale and that's when it seemed just right. You basically want to dip the tip of a toothpick in the stuff and swirl that around in your glass to get the right amount. But when you hit the right amount, you'll see exactly what I'm talking about. I think this will get you closer to that Pumking flavor than anything else you can do.
Click to expand...
 
KingBrianI said:
Why are you guys still screwing around with the graham cracker extract? That's not the stuff. I'm telling you, someone just try what I mentioned previously in the below quoted post and you will be there. Just remember to GO LIGHT"!
Click to expand...

My main problem is that I haven't seen much confirmation, really on either method. I'm too poor to just wing it. Maybe I should cancel my graham cracker order and instead get the butter & nut and go with .25 tsp of that.

Edit..I don't actually see that exact flavoring, so scratch that.
 
KingBrianI said:
Why are you guys still screwing around with the graham cracker extract? That's not the stuff. I'm telling you, someone just try what I mentioned previously in the below quoted post and you will be there. Just remember to GO LIGHT"!
Click to expand...

So are you saying that you have made a clone using your method and it was spot on? Or are you still screwing around with whether or not to brew it and provide confirmation?
 
skeezerpleezer said:
So are you saying that you have made a clone using your method and it was spot on? Or are you still screwing around with whether or not to brew it and provide confirmation?
Click to expand...

The beer is brewed and set to be kegged this weekend. Not a pumking clone but an imperialized version of my samhain pumpkin ale recipe. I'll be adding 1/4 teaspoon of the vanilla butter and nut extract at kegging. I'll report back on those results in a couple weeks, but until then its no big thing for people to grab a couple dollar bottle of the stuff to test out themselves on their next trip to the grocery store. That should be all the confirmation they need if their palate is halfway decent.
 
Are you guys using McCormick's Imitation Butter and Nut flavoring? I'm trying to figure out which one. I don't see that Capella offers one.
 
KingBrianI said:
yep!
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Great, thanks for the reminder and clarification. i think I'll pick up some of that at the grocery store. Like I've been saying, the graham cracker extract is nasty, so this is worth a shot. My plan is to add a drop to a 1L pet bottle of my pumpkin beer, give it a couple weeks, then taste test.

Two other problems with the p. 20 recipe ... I've been drinking every pumpkin beer I can get my hands on, and Pumking seems unique in its lack of cinnamon. And imho the lactose is a mistake (it's a strange sweetness) even though I used just 0.25 lbs. Better idea would be more crystal malt and/ or mash over 158f.
 
I'll say the GC extract amount of 1 tsp is too much, maybe try half or even a quarter of that. My main issue isn't the flavor it's that it leaves a coating in my mouth. Get both extracts and experiment in bottles. Next year I'm just gonna add Graham crackers to the mash.
 
So here is a modified version of the recipe from page 20, trying to take into account the comments made.

Basically dropped Lactose to 2oz, changed grain to only 2 row and caramel 60 (seems to be what ST uses) with a 158+ mash.

Dropped GC extract to .25 tsp (still considering a mix of this and the vanilla butter & nut stuff, but we will see)

Dropped cinnamon to 1 stick, vanilla 2 beans in normal vodka.

Fermentables:
15 lbs 2-Row American Pale Malt
1 lb Caramel 60
2 lbs pumpkin (Canned)

3/4 lb Demerara Sugar (added to boil after hot break)
1/4 lb Light Brown Sugar (added to boil after hot break)

Hops:
3/4 oz Magnum Hops @ 60 min
1/4 oz Sterling @ 15 min

Additives:
2 oz Lactose @ 15 min
1/2 tsp Yeast Nutrient @ 10 min
1 Whirlfloc Tab @ 10 min
2 tbsp fine chopped candied ginger @ 5 min
1 Ceylon cinnamon sticks (real cinnamon sticks ordered online)
1/2 tsp whole cloves @ 5 min
1/2 tsp nutmeg @ 5 min
1/2 tsp Allspice @ 5 min

Added to Secondary:
2 Madagascar Vanilla Beans (2 fresh beans split down middle, scraped and soaked in 4 oz vodka for 2 weeks - Vodka added to secondary)
1 tsp. Pumpkin Pie Spice
.25 tsp. Capella water soluble Graham Cracker Extract (purchased online and added to secondary)

Yeast:
2 packs Safeale US-05

Mashed at ~160 degrees for 90 minutes
Boiled for 60 minutes.




Problems that I haven't thought of here?
 
sivdrinks said:
I wouldn't drop the Victory.
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So you'd leave the caramel 60 instead of the crystal and add back in what, 1lb of victory? Maybe drop the caramel 60 to 12oz?

Also, what is your reasoning for the victory? I am actually having trouble finding my source that said ST uses 2 row and caramel...so maybe I'm mistaken
 
Wow, had this yesterday for lunch... lol... Fantastic... thought it would taste strong, but it tasted like dessert... ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC!!!
 
cotillion said:
So you'd leave the caramel 60 instead of the crystal and add back in what, 1lb of victory? Maybe drop the caramel 60 to 12oz?

Also, what is your reasoning for the victory? I am actually having trouble finding my source that said ST uses 2 row and caramel...so maybe I'm mistaken
Click to expand...

Ok, didn't know they were giving exact ingredients (looking bottom of page 20). I really have no idea then!
 
sivdrinks said:
Ok, didn't know they were giving exact ingredients (looking bottom of page 20). I really have no idea then!
Click to expand...

Man, I am not even close to sure either way. I know the ST site says it uses only two types of grain, and somewhere I read that they use caramel and not crystal (not that I really know the difference).

But now I can't find that source on the caramel tidbit. Either way, the page 20 recipe does have 3 grains, which seems suspect.
 
cotillion said:
i've been watching this thread for a while, and i am a little troubled by the huge differences between "this is almost an exact clone" and "this isnt even close."

i am thinking about working from the recipe from page 20, but instead using 1 can of the pumpkin sludge (perhaps coated with honey and baked?), 2 cinnamon sticks, 2 vanilla beans in unflavored vodka and .25 tsp of the graham cracker extract.

am i missing anything else here?
Click to expand...

bake with some brown sugar, pumpkin pie spice and some honey. youll want to eat all of it right out of the tray.
go light on the vanilla. maybe use 2 oz of vodka/rum with 1 bean. thats my main complaint on mine, and the fact that its taking longer than normal to carb up. i only used 1 packet of us-05 tho. im guessing that might be the reason.
 
Has anyone considered yeast character for getting the graham cracker crust aroma? Just fermented mine with WY1469 Yorkshire and the aroma is indistinguishable from Pumking. The taste is darn close too. I think the ginger and the nutmeg with the yeast character drive that warm, bready crust flavor & aroma. The oats help for the mouthfeel too.

Here's what I did and it's a close enough clone for me. The only thing that's different is the bitterness/hop character. And mine doesn't have that subtle artificial aroma either.

TyTanium's Pumpkin King
1.084 // 1.020
10 lbs Pale Ale
1 lb Munich
1 lb Victory
0.75 C60
1 lb Flaked Oats
1.75 Pumpkin puree, baked, dissolved into strike water

Mash @156

1 oz Willamette @ 60
0.5 oz Willamette @ 20

Spices at flameout, once chilled to 160.

2 tsp Ginger
1 tsp Cinnamon
1/2 nutmeg seed, freshly grated
0.5 tsp Allspice
0.25 tsp whole cloves

Fermented @ 64°F, ramped up to 72°F as fermentation slowed. Bottled at 2 weeks w/ 1 tbsp (0.5 oz) vanilla extract.
 
Interesting stuff. Have you done a side by side with them?

In reference to an earlier post of mine - I just bought a bottle, and it says the malts are 2 row and caramel. Hops are magnum (kettle) and sterling (aroma). So I do think I will be sticking to just the 2row and c60. The rest will just have to be a crapshoot.
 
No side by side, already drank my commercial version this year. And now that I have 5 gallons of mine that I love, I'm not gonna buy any more.

So it's not a triple-blind statistically-significant clone, it's just has all the things I remember loving about the original, for what that's worth.
 
Keep in mind too that much of what we use specialty malts for can be done by varying mash temperature. I've not used Victory specifically, but assuming the grain lists on the bottle are correct, the one thing (aside from their spice extracts) that we don't have is their mash procedure.

GREAT thoughts on the yeast profile, BTW. I think that might be the key to the crust flavor, just from thinking about it.
 
Well, I was going to do a side by side with the "clone" I made from page 20 and the real thing, but now I feel it would be a waste of time. It's nothing even remotely close to Pumking. I had one last night, been in bottles for over 7 weeks. Not good. The graham cracker extract ruined it, it's developed a strange metallic flavor and the vanilla is also over the top. I can't even get any pumpkin flavors out of it, just twangy, metallic, vanilla. :( Not very happy after sinking all that time and money into it. I do recall it tasting pretty good when I pulled samples before adding the secondary additions so I know the extract is mostly at fault here.
 
Yeah dont use graham cracker. And if you use the vanilla butter and nut flavoring, BE CAREFUL!

I added 1/4 tsp to a brown ale and it's heavy on the flavoring. I'd start with 1/16 of a tsp.
 
nickmv said:
Yeah dont use graham cracker. And if you use the vanilla butter and nut flavoring, BE CAREFUL!

I added 1/4 tsp to a brown ale and it's heavy on the flavoring. I'd start with 1/16 of a tsp.
Click to expand...

But the flavor from the vanilla butter nut is pretty reminiscent to the likes of Pumking?
 
I brewed this today, essentially the page 20 recipe. I screwed up with the cinnamon, though: my software doesn't let me enter "3 sticks" of cinnamon so I entered "3 oz" weeks ago assuming I'd double-check it before I brewed. I didn't, being stupid, and put 3 oz of cinnamon in, which is a lot of cinnamon!

Surprisingly, it doesn't smell like there's too much cinnamon, most was left in the kettle. It tastes fantastic too. Looking forward to this in late October.

Ended up with an OG of 1.083.
 
I'm giving this a go today. Kind of using my own recipe based of the sum of these. 95% two row and 5% ctystal 50/60* L, because that's what I have. The worst part is out of the 10 pounds or so of hops I have I don't have the ones listed in this thread. So not sure what I'm going to use yet. Any thoughts for a substitute for magnum and sterling? I don't have saaz either.
 

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