WLP644 -Brett B Trois

Tiroux said:

I tasted again.. and it's not that smoky after all.. it's more like a spicy phenolic with a dry woody finish. Combined to the alcool kick (9%), it might be percieved a bit solvent-like, at first... Do you know where it could come from? Too much oxygen? Fermented too hot? (from 72 to 77)

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I got the same thing in a double IPA that I did with Trois, I dont think its too much oxygen or temps since I didn't oxygenate and fermented at 65 rising to 72.

It also didn't show up until after being kegged and carbed for a week or two.

Have you guys been cold crashing before kegging? The 1st round of dry hops have been floating on the surface of the beer in the carboy. I'm ready to rack to a keg but it looks like the beer isn't ready.

What have ya'll found to be the best temps to ferment beer with 100% brett b trois and what are the different flavors that one might get low vs high temp ranges?

Matteo57 said:

What have ya'll found to be the best temps to ferment beer with 100% brett b trois and what are the different flavors that one might get low vs high temp ranges?

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You want 70ish, too low a temp and it'll stall out and can produce esters you may not like, don't remember off hand what the descriptors are.

What about higher temps? Like 75-80? WL site says optimal is 70-85... You going to get funky flavors in the high 70s and low 80s?

kaips1 said:

You want 70ish, too low a temp and it'll stall out and can produce esters you may not like, don't remember off hand what the descriptors are.

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I don't agree with this. I generally ferment brett at whatever is room temp (~70-75F), but when I've used it in the lower 60s there's never been a problem with attenuation or esters

It's the higher temps I'm worried about. Since it's been hotter lately where I live. I was away from my house for a couple days and fermenting something in my chest freezer and wanted to control that one a bit more than my 100% brett beer. So I left it out in my garage which usually is around 72-75 or lower. Well When I got back the beer was around 80-81F and I just am a bit worried it got too hot even though the WL site says 70-85F since most I see about all brett, including this strain, are fermented in around 65-70s range.

Matteo57 said:

It's the higher temps I'm worried about.

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I'm also in this same sort of scenario that mine is fermenting on the higher range.

Also, I just racked a Citra pale ale onto the yeast cake from my last Trois batch. Anyone had any experiences with a second generation? You find many differences in flavor?

dcp27 said:

I don't agree with this. I generally ferment brett at whatever is room temp (~70-75F), but when I've used it in the lower 60s there's never been a problem with attenuation or esters

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I use higher temps. I generally start fermentation around 70 and let it ramp up naturally. Though, I have only let it ramp up to a maximum of 78. I really like this ferment profile for Brett.

When I used this strain at 60, it fermented. The fermentation took forever. I experienced krausen and very slow bubbling for around 4 weeks straight. The flavor profile was not what I was looking for either. The intense fruitiness did not show up very well.

andrewcoopergt said:

I'm also in this same sort of scenario that mine is fermenting on the higher range.

Also, I just racked a Citra pale ale onto the yeast cake from my last Trois batch. Anyone had any experiences with a second generation? You find many differences in flavor?

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When this strain came out in 2012, I bought two vials and repitched probably 5 or 6 times (may have been more!) before I was able to find a new vial this year. It was a hardy yeast but I did notice that it shifted a little bit over time. With that said, I probably put it through some torturous experiments - everything from 60 to 78 fermentation temperature and gravities from 1.040 to 1.070. Still made some killer beer!

anyone used this strain as the primary strain for a berliner weisse? added any fruit?

1st attempt with be an XPA and would like to use it as the primary strain for a berliner as well (likely sour mash method but TBD), possibly with fruit added to some/all of the batch - will likely wait to taste to decide which fruit to add but curious if anyone has prior experiences

terrapinj said:

anyone used this strain as the primary strain for a berliner weisse? added any fruit?

1st attempt with be an XPA and would like to use it as the primary strain for a berliner as well (likely sour mash method but TBD), possibly with fruit added to some/all of the batch - will likely wait to taste to decide which fruit to add but curious if anyone has prior experiences

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I recently racked a sour beer fermented with Trois onto 4lbs of underripe plums to age for a bit. Final results aren't in but samples tasted good.

terrapinj said:

anyone used this strain as the primary strain for a berliner weisse? added any fruit?

1st attempt with be an XPA and would like to use it as the primary strain for a berliner as well (likely sour mash method but TBD), possibly with fruit added to some/all of the batch - will likely wait to taste to decide which fruit to add but curious if anyone has prior experiences

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I was just thinking this as I was reading through the thread. Although my previous BW batches have been almost too good to modify.

whatisboom said:

I was just thinking this as I was reading through the thread. Although my previous BW batches have been almost too good to modify.

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My buddy only does lacto/Brett bw's and they are phenomenal. With the right fruit additions its a whole new beast. Lactos better than sour mashing and Brett adds way more complexity than any sacch strain.

whatisboom said:

I was just thinking this as I was reading through the thread. Although my previous BW batches have been almost too good to modify.

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Recipe and process, por favor?

terrapinj said:

anyone used this strain as the primary strain for a berliner weisse? added any fruit?

1st attempt with be an XPA and would like to use it as the primary strain for a berliner as well (likely sour mash method but TBD), possibly with fruit added to some/all of the batch - will likely wait to taste to decide which fruit to add but curious if anyone has prior experiences

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I did with mulberries and home made lacto. The Brett helped carry the flavour a lot, but I feel the home cultured lacto may have been the down fall of the brew.

Brulosopher said:

Recipe and process, por favor?

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70/30 2-row/white wheat
~1.030
Mashed low
15 minute boil
No hops
Pitched a 2 liter Wyeast 5335 lacto starter (crashed and decanted)
2 weeks just lacto (I like it sour)
Pitched 1007 even though it was near terminal gravity

Was kind of bland so I pitched Brett Lambicus for ~3 months. 5 gallons plain, other 5 gallons got 9lbs of unpasteurized bing cherries

Both were/are absolutely amazing. The cherry half is INSANELY tart. I love it.

Just drank a cider that I made with this strain. Rather dry but with that slight sweetness that preserves the apple flavor. Flocc'ed 2 days after kreusen subsided. I am trying different yeasts for cider and so far, interestingly, Brett trois is my favorite.
I have so far used this strain in cider, a double IPA, and a strong dark mild ale (in conjunction with brett A from Mo Betta dregs).

loftybrewer said:

I have so far used this strain in cider, a double IPA, and a strong dark mild ale (in conjunction with brett A from Mo Betta dregs).

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This is actually a perfect spot for me to ask my question. For everyone who has successfully done an IPA or hoppy pale with this strain, how long are you letting it age before you keg/bottle?

I ask because I just did a hoppy citra pale ale with 100% Brett Trois. I let it sit for six weeks to make sure most/all fermentation had stopped. I kegged it yesterday, and after tasting a sample, am incredibly disappointed. At about 3 weeks it was incredible, with intense citrus and extremely clean. Now it seems to have lost almost all of it's hop flavor and really just isnt very good.

Any useful tips out there?

Dry hop it? Most ipas that I have seen recipes for with 100% Brett are dry hopped right before packaging. That's what I did for my ipa with Brett. Turned out awesome! Let it sit in primary for about 4 weeks. Cheers

andrewcoopergt said:

This is actually a perfect spot for me to ask my question. For everyone who has successfully done an IPA or hoppy pale with this strain, how long are you letting it age before you keg/bottle?

I ask because I just did a hoppy citra pale ale with 100% Brett Trois. I let it sit for six weeks to make sure most/all fermentation had stopped. I kegged it yesterday, and after tasting a sample, am incredibly disappointed. At about 3 weeks it was incredible, with intense citrus and extremely clean. Now it seems to have lost almost all of it's hop flavor and really just isnt very good.

Any useful tips out there?

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Give it another 2-3 wks, trois goes through phases and it should improve, it may not be what you expect but it will improve

I've done a few now and I let them sit for about 7 weeks in primary before bottling or kegging. 3 were dry hopped and 1 was not. 2 were kegged, 2 were bottled. The ones in the kegs were drank about 2 weeks after kegging at parties and were awesome. Those were dry hopped for a week before kegging. The non dry hopped one was bottled almost 4 months ago. It's been awesome the entire time and the hoppiness and fruitiness are not drying down. The latest one was bottled a few weeks ago and is drinking nicely now.

I followed Chad Yakobson's advice to give my brett trois starter 7+ days. About to use it this evening, and it has a distinct acetic acid/vinegary taste. I know brett will produce acetic acid, but I'm worried that acetobacter might also have taken off, since the starter was on the stir-plate for a week and had plenty of oxygen. Does anyone have any experience with vinegary starters from this yeast? I don't really want much sourness in the beer I'm pitching it into, so I'm considering racking another beer from secondary and using the cake from that instead.

metic said:

I followed Chad Yakobson's advice to give my brett trois starter 7+ days. About to use it this evening, and it has a distinct acetic acid/vinegary taste. I know brett will produce acetic acid, but I'm worried that acetobacter might also have taken off, since the starter was on the stir-plate for a week and had plenty of oxygen. Does anyone have any experience with vinegary starters from this yeast? I don't really want much sourness in the beer I'm pitching it into, so I'm considering racking another beer from secondary and using the cake from that instead.

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ouch. tough one.

on the one hand, many people say that brett can produce acetic acid. high levels of oxygen are required for this to happen, so a week on a stir plate is a good candidate for that.

on the other hand, it's not a common occurrence. you don't hear tons of reports of brett starters going all vinegar. i've now made 2 brett B starters, each left on the stir plate for over a week and neither had any vinegar smells (yes, anecdotal, i know).

i guess it comes down to: are you feeling lucky, punk?

Yeah, I don't think I'm going to risk it. Pitching on the yeast from this secondary fermenter isn't ideal either---I'm probably under-pitching, for one thing---but I really don't want to end up with 3 gallons of vinegary baltic porter! Thanks for the help.

i have had a distinctly acetic smelling starter, chilled decanted and pitched, beer came out exactly as i wanted it (ie nothing like salad dressing) i can't exactly remember if it was trois or brux

First, this is a really great thread especially now that it's a few years old and you can read about everyone's 644 brews from start to finish. I want to give this a shot and brew a 100% brett trois IPA but I have a few questions.

Some people in this thread suggest that brett trois can enhance bitternesss but I think a few posts said that's not the case, or only at very small levels. Can someone clarify that? If it does enhance bitterness what would a desired level of IBUs be and what amount of bittering hops for a 5 gallon/60 minute boil would be recommended? I was thinking about brewing a clean IPA next (Sculpin clone) but now I'm considering using WLP644 instead of a California ale yeast for this. However, the clone recipe I have does call for a high level of bittering hops. I want to make sure I have the right hop bill before I attempt this beer.

jrfehon said:

First, this is a really great thread especially now that it's a few years old and you can read about everyone's 644 brews from start to finish. I want to give this a shot and brew a 100% brett trois IPA but I have a few questions.

Some people in this thread suggest that brett trois can enhance bitternesss but I think a few posts said that's not the case, or only at very small levels. Can someone clarify that? If it does enhance bitterness what would a desired level of IBUs be and what amount of bittering hops for a 5 gallon/60 minute boil would be recommended? I was thinking about brewing a clean IPA next (Sculpin clone) but now I'm considering using WLP644 instead of a California ale yeast for this. However, the clone recipe I have does call for a high level of bittering hops. I want to make sure I have the right hop bill before I attempt this beer.

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I've done two beers with Brett B. Trois, a Belgian IPA and an ESB and both had a stronger lingering bittering finish than I expected. I'd cut my ibus by 10 to 20% next time.

I wouldn't worry about the acetic. I had a very acetic starter with Trois a few months back and the resulting beer was great.

My process with that starter was a bit weird. I made the starter, first two steps, but then something came up and I couldn't use it. It had been on a stirplate. Took it off the stirplate and it sat for a few weeks. When I came back to it, it had a pellicle. I stepped it up once more and it was quite acetic. I was a touch worried. Made a Brett Trois IPA with it and it came out great. Not sour, not acetic. Great beer.

Anyway, that's my experience with that. I don't worry about it anymore.

a theory just occurred to me, no guarantees that i'm correct tho: cold crash & decant the spent starter beer before pitching the yeast into the new batch and you'll probably be fine. the acetic acid is in the beer, not in the yeast. pour off the "beer" = getting rid of the acetic. as for future acetic production, the brett produced that acetic acid because of specific conditions (extended "over"-oxygenation). that won't be the case in your batch of beer, you'll only have initial oxygenation before the yeast switch to anaerobic fermentation. the yeast shouldn't produce more vinegar.

I've done 1 beer with brett so far, a grapefruit IPA. Unfortunately I think that the brett pulled out too much of the bitterness of the grapefruit and created a weird too bitter (not hop bitterness, but grapefruit bitterness) beer. The same exact beer brewed and fermented with 001 is absolutely amazing!
Really bummed. Will have to try it again sometime without grapefruit! Maybe I'll start building up the starter now for a month or two from now so it will be ready and plenty of time for the brett to multiply!

jrfehon said:

Some people in this thread suggest that brett trois can enhance bitternesss but I think a few posts said that's not the case, or only at very small levels. Can someone clarify that?

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IME, brett primary does not enhance bitterness. as secondary it does as it dries it out more. I've done >100 IBU beers with Trois and never thought it needed to be toned down. Wasn't Trois, but a friend has split an IPA on chico, lager & brett B&C twice now and the brett is def not any more bitter

sweetcell said:

a theory just occurred to me, no guarantees that i'm correct tho: cold crash & decant the spent starter beer before pitching the yeast into the new batch and you'll probably be fine. the acetic acid is in the beer, not in the yeast. pour off the "beer" = getting rid of the acetic. as for future acetic production, the brett produced that acetic acid because of specific conditions (extended "over"-oxygenation). that won't be the case in your batch of beer, you'll only have initial oxygenation before the yeast switch to anaerobic fermentation. the yeast shouldn't produce more vinegar.

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I decanted mine except for about 500 ml or something. I agree with what you're saying here. Keep the O2 away in the main beer and you shouldn't have much if any acetic.

I know it was probably discussed somewhere but I couldn't find it looking back

has anyone noticed some pretty gnarly smells from their starter?

i saved a bit of the starter from my last beer a few weeks ago and had it sitting in the flask with foil on at room temp for a few weeks - i went to step it up tonight and the smell was pretty wretched - a little rotten and perhaps a little rubbery but I only picked the rubbery smell up on one whiff

Yeah. I've had Trois starters smell like really rotting fruit and not in a pleasant way. And I've had them smell very sharp and sour. Neither carried over into the final beer.

Recently made a 100% Brett Brux beer. That starter had a touch of vomit smell in the aroma. Luckily, that did not carry over into the beer at all. And just last week made 100% Brett Claussenii beer. That starter smelled closer to Trois with some sharp fruit smells edging on rotting fruit, but a bit more pleasant than the Trois starter. Haven't tasted the resulting beer with that one yet, though.

Today I'm brewing a 6 gallon Sculpin IPA clone which I'm going to split three ways and use brett brux trois (snow in Philly means brew day!). 1/3 is going to be clean, 1/3 I'm going to add brett brux trois at bottling and the other 1/3 I'm going to add BBT in the secondary. A bit of an experiment with WLP644. Plus, this will be my first all grain brew (BIAB stovetop)! Here's my clone recipe:

13.2 LB Pale Malt (US 2 Row)
1.2 LB Caramel/Crystal 10L
14.4 oz Cara-Pils
9.6 oz Caravienne

1.2 oz Amarillo (Mash)
.6 oz Warrior (60 min)
.6 oz Magnum (60 min)
.6 oz Crystal (30 min)
.3 oz Centennial (30 min)
.3 oz Simcoe (30 min)
1.2 oz Amarillo (FO)

2 oz Simcoe (Dry Hop - 4 days)
2 oz Amarillo (Dry Hop - 4 Days)

With 70% efficiency (I'm not sure what to expect from my first all grain) I should get a OG of 1.067 and a FG around 1.013 for the "clean" Sculpin. That will get me just over 7% ABV which the real beer has. All six gallons will primary with WLP001 for three weeks which I'll make sure to warm up into the mid 70s towards the end to assure fermentation is complete. I'll transfer 2 gallons into a better bottle and add WLP644. The other 4 gallons will get transferred into a glass carboy for dry hopping. When the beer is clear I'll dry hop for four days and bottle. Half the bottles will get 10 drops of WLP644 in each and the other half will remain "clean". The 1/3 with brett as the secondary strain will age for at least three months until attenuation is complete - then I'll dry hop with Amarillo and Simcoe.

Here are my questions for you with experience using 644.

1. I've read on Oldsock's blog that adding brett at bottling to use 10 drops per 12oz bottle of brett slurry. Has anyone else had success doing this?
2. What temperature would be best to store the bottles I add brett at bottling in? I'm concerned about gushers and bottle bombs.
3. I already have a vial of 644 to add to the brett secondary 1/3 of my experiment. I'd rather not buy another vial of 644 to use with my bottle conditioned brett 1/3. Can I make a starter with 644, pitch part of it in my brett secondary 1/3 and save some of it in the vial to use later with my bottle conditioned brett 1/3? I apologize for the confusion - I couldn't figure out any other way to explain this.

jrfehon said:

2. What temperature would be best to store the bottles I add brett at bottling in? I'm concerned about gushers and bottle bombs.

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Leave them at room temp so the brett can work. The trick is to reduce (or eliminate) the priming sugar by the correct amount so you have carbonation without bombs. So you will need to start with an assumption, that the brett will take it down to _____ SG. For me, to avoid a messy and potentially dangerous situation, the first time around I'd just use it in secondary and see where it ends up. Then if you brew the same batch, you can use it at bottling with a bit more confidence.

jrfehon said:

3. I already have a vial of 644 to add to the brett secondary 1/3 of my experiment. I'd rather not buy another vial of 644 to use with my bottle conditioned brett 1/3. Can I make a starter with 644, pitch part of it in my brett secondary 1/3 and save some of it in the vial to use later with my bottle conditioned brett 1/3? I apologize for the confusion - I couldn't figure out any other way to explain this.

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Sure. I'd recommend stepping it up slowly since there's a very small amount of yeast in White Labs' brett vials. I start with a starter in a small 12 oz bottle (like a whopping 7 oz of wort), then step it up to a growler after a week or so.

Threetall said:

Just pitched this into a citra pale ale inspired by zombie dust. Starter smelled like peach and mangoes, can not wait for this beer.

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I apologize for not reading through the entire thread in advance, but wanted to ask, was this a primary fermentation or secondary fermentation Brett pitch? Sounds like a primary I'm guessing.

ryanhope said:

I never heard that about pH and attenuation with brett. However, something about the lower pH or the lactic acid from the acid malt does help the brett produce more tropical fruit notes.

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I use acid malt to correct mash pH, which in general amounts to a very small percentage of the grist. The most I've used was 2.9% using only base malts for the rest with my RO water. Though I don't measure my wort pH (maybe I should), I also add some salts to the wort for proper calcium content and to drive pH a bit lower than the mash. I hadn't thought acid malt was really intended for anything but pH correction.

TD

OK, wanted to get some feedback on this recipe.

Planning a white ipa type brew with primary wlp644 ferment.

50% 2 row
37% golden promise
4.3% flaked barley
4.3% carahell
4.3% flaked oats

Hoping that carahell and flaked grains make an attempt at a hint of residual body at FG.

Hops
Bittering: Bravo & Galena for 50 IBUs
Whirlpool: Galaxy, Motueka, & Calypso 1oz ea
Dry Hops: Nelson Sauvin

Considering trying to work in some late boil Amarillo and try to work in some El Dorado maybe.

Read the whole thread through. Nice info in here.

Never done a all bret (or ANY bret before this). Never done a white IPA.
Looking for some suggestions. How does the hop combo look? I'm looking for an "in your face" fruit-hop bomb that is easy to drink and refreshing without melting your tongue.

Figure I'll do a starter probably in several stages, and do a NO aerate pitch into the primary at 70ºF

Thanks for feedback.

Also curious how splitting this into two kegs, and treating one half with some golden raisins or dehydrated mango or both and roeselare blend after 7-8 weeks in the primary, maybe some chardonnay soaked oak chips.....

TD