Keep warm to start fermentation?

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jimmarshall

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Ive read before on the instructions with my kit that I need to have my wort at like 75-78 degrees when I pitch, and then move it to a cooler area when fermentation starts.... Any truth to this?
 
75-78 is pretty high to pitch. You're likely to get some major off flavors. Of course it depends on your type of yeast too. I usually pitch my yeast at about 64-67 and leave it there if you can. Happy brewing!
 
It really depends on the yeast. Some strains ferment at higher temps than others. Look up the strain of yeast online and see what it's preferred range is. Start the batch somewhere near the mid-range--unless you have a special need for pushing the yeast to either extreme.
 
That instruction is a carryover from the "old days," (read: 20-30 years ago) when the quality of the yeast was poorer than what we have today. As Sleephla says, you're better of pitching in the mid 60's or lower. A warm initial temperature means increased ester production. Pitching cooler (and keeping your fermentation temperature lower for at least the first day or two, if you can) will give you a cleaner tasting beer.
 
So why does it say to rehydrate dry yeast in 90-100 degree water? Won't that have the same effect as pitching warm?
 
In the first phase of yeast your not likley to create off flavors. About 6-8 hours in you should be fine to have it that warm. After it starts eating the sugars, the second phase of the yeast, is when your gonna create the off flavors.
 
mechanicalBRew said:
So why does it say to rehydrate dry yeast in 90-100 degree water? Won't that have the same effect as pitching warm?
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When you rehydrate yeast, all you are doing is waking it up, and it is not for very long. Yeast prefer temps around 95 F, unfortunately, when fermenting at that temperature, it produces some undesirable flavors.

I think the jury is still out as to whether it is best to pitch yeast at a high temperature and bring it down to fermentation temperature within a few hours (this helps get the yeast going), or to pitch low and bring the temp up to fermentation temps (this reduces esters created by the yeast).

Personally, I don't pay much attention to it. I make sure I am below 75 F (today I pitched at 66 F) and have the brew in a water bath to get it to the right temperature within a few hours.
 
mechanicalBRew said:
So why does it say to rehydrate dry yeast in 90-100 degree water? Won't that have the same effect as pitching warm?
Click to expand...

Nope. Yeast rehydration done in sterilized (boiled then chilled to 95-100*F) water (tap or spring, not distilled) allows the yeast to re-establish normal cell membrane functions in a friendly (and fairly neutral pH) environment.

Early in the rehydration process the yeast can't tell the difference between good & bad substances, so pitching it dry into wort, even at the right temp, causes a lower percentage of cells to survive in good health.

Pitching dry into too warm wort = kill even more cells, damage some of the others and may cause the production of off-flavors.

I like to pitch rehydrated ale yeast at 65-66*F.
 
It's Safale us-05. Ended up pitching @ 63 degrees. First batch fermented way too hot, worried about off favors... Decided not to take that chance here.
 
sleephla said:
75-78 is pretty high to pitch. You're likely to get some major off flavors. Of course it depends on your type of yeast too. I usually pitch my yeast at about 64-67 and leave it there if you can. Happy brewing!
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Horse Dudu! Living in Hawai`i using tap water to cool I pitch anywhere below 80* and usually in the high 70's. Never had a bad beer. But I do have a fermenting freezer where things go and temp is in the low 60's.
 
In the first phase of yeast your not likley to create off flavors. About 6-8 hours in you should be fine to have it that warm. After it starts eating the sugars, the second phase of the yeast, is when your gonna create the off flavors.
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Jamil Zainascheff, John Palmer and everyone else smarter than me I've heard talk about it disagree. The bulk of ester production occurs during the lag phase, before active fermentation even starts. It tapers off to a very low level as fermentation continues. Lagers are allowed to warm slightly in the last day or two of active fermentation to allow for a dicetyl rest; by that time the ester production has stopped or come down to unnoticeable levels. Though moderate levels of ester flavors are a "feature" of ales, excessive ester (think fruitiness) is generally to be avoided. A method similar to the lager schedule works well for this. Keep it cooler (low-mid 60Fs) for the first few days, then let it come up to ambient temperature until you;re ready to rack or bottle.
 
Captain Damage said:
Jamil Zainascheff, John Palmer and everyone else smarter than me I've heard talk about it disagree. The bulk of ester production occurs during the lag phase, before active fermentation even starts. It tapers off to a very low level as fermentation continues. Lagers are allowed to warm slightly in the last day or two of active fermentation to allow for a dicetyl rest; by that time the ester production has stopped or come down to unnoticeable levels. Though moderate levels of ester flavors are a "feature" of ales, excessive ester (think fruitiness) is generally to be avoided. A method similar to the lager schedule works well for this. Keep it cooler (low-mid 60Fs) for the first few days, then let it come up to ambient temperature until you;re ready to rack or bottle.
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+1.

That's why it's recommended to pitch in the mid 60's and keep it there for that most active period. If you're going to brew much, having a temperature-controlled fermentation chamber makes this much easier and precise.
 
jimmarshall said:
Ive read before on the instructions with my kit that I need to have my wort at like 75-78 degrees when I pitch, and then move it to a cooler area when fermentation starts.... Any truth to this?
Click to expand...

I always get my wort down to 78f - 80f range, transfer the wort to a cooler area in my basement and pitch the yeast. I've had no problems with doing it this way. I believe the main portion of fermentation needs to be in the 60f - 68f area for the majority of the time so off flavors are not produced. By the time the yeast start to work your wort should have lowered down to fermentation temps, dependent on type of yeast
 
If, like me, you don't have access to a cool area or dedicated fermenting fridge try this: What I do is, my carboys sit in big tupperware-like pans (one of them was originally sold as a cat litter pan but it was the right size). After the wort is chilled and transferred to the carboy and yeast is pitched, the carboy goes in the pan and I put a few pounds of ice in it. I'll keep adding ice once or twice a day for the first two to three days, and remove water as necessary. It keeps the temperature in the low 60Fs and noticeably stretches out (slows down) the active phase of fermentation. It's made a real difference in my beers!
 
Captain Damage said:
Jamil Zainascheff, John Palmer and everyone else smarter than me I've heard talk about it disagree. The bulk of ester production occurs during the lag phase, before active fermentation even starts. It tapers off to a very low level as fermentation continues. Lagers are allowed to warm slightly in the last day or two of active fermentation to allow for a dicetyl rest; by that time the ester production has stopped or come down to unnoticeable levels. Though moderate levels of ester flavors are a "feature" of ales, excessive ester (think fruitiness) is generally to be avoided. A method similar to the lager schedule works well for this. Keep it cooler (low-mid 60Fs) for the first few days, then let it come up to ambient temperature until you;re ready to rack or bottle.
Click to expand...

http://www.brewgeeks.com/the-life-cycle-of-yeast.html
This is where I got my information. if this info is bunk I would like to know
 
"The lag phase can be carried out at a higher temperature than the rest of fermentation because very little flavor compounds are produced. Ethanol production is also very limited, therefore ester formation is not a concern. Some brewers begin the lag phase for ales at 72-75F, and complete the fermentation at 68F. This can be done with success for lagers too, with starting the lag phase at 72-75F and lowering the fermentation temperature to 50-55F."
 
buzbey said:
"The lag phase can be carried out at a higher temperature than the rest of fermentation because very little flavor compounds are produced. Ethanol production is also very limited, therefore ester formation is not a concern. Some brewers begin the lag phase for ales at 72-75F, and complete the fermentation at 68F. This can be done with success for lagers too, with starting the lag phase at 72-75F and lowering the fermentation temperature to 50-55F."
Click to expand...

Provide reference when you quote. I believe this was taken from a paper by Chris White.


Also from White and Zainasheff (Yeast, page 67):

"Warmer temperatures result in more cells. A common technique when working with a slightly undersized pitch of yeast is to carry out the lag phase under warmer conditions. While it may not create off-flavors directly, it can increase some precursoers, like alpha acetolactate, which is the precursor for diacetyl. If you are going to pitch the yeast warm, be prepared to warm the beer back to the same temperature or higher near the end of fermentation. This will help the yeast utilize some of these fermentation compounds and will result in a cleaner beer."
 
Personally I've seen that when I pitch in mid 70s fermentation *seems* to start faster. But generally if I can wait I pitch in the mid 60s for a WLP001 or similar
 
We pitch almost everything at 20 degrees Celsius then raise or lower as required. This won't shock the yeast and will allow it time to start fermentation. This should prevent too much of a lag.
 
Sorry to zombie this thread but I emailed Brew Strong (Jamil Zainasheff and John Palmer) asking if they could clarify this on their podcast. While they don't directly or completely answer my question, they do briefly address fermentation temperature in the last 10 minutes or so of this episode. They say to start with temperatures in the lower range and increase slightly at the end for diacetyl cleanup.
 
Okay, double zombieing here! They do address my question directly on this Brew Strong episode. It's the first question (at about 7:40). Their whole answer is too complicated to post here, so give it a listen. IMO the big takeaway is their usual mantra that the most critical thing is yeast health, but again the whole response is a lot more complicated than that.
 
I use liquid yeast and a starter for every batch. Fermentation normally starts in 4-6 hours every time at 62-64 degrees.
 

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