20 lb of sugar and a jar of yeast nutrient

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One more question...

Will any yeast nutrient work? Or does it have to be a specific one, and if so, can someone post a link to buy it? Cheers.
 
I've tried this twice, once at 260F and the other at 280F, and both times the sugar did not darken AT ALL. I'm beginning to think that the baggy my LHBS labeled Di-Ammonium Phosphate yeast nutrient is not or is not pure DAP.

What does your guys DAP look like? Mine has an ultra-fine white powder with bead-like translucent crystals mixed in, which along with my candi syrup results, is leading me to believe it's not pure DAP.
 
smizak said:
I've tried this twice, once at 260F and the other at 280F, and both times the sugar did not darken AT ALL. I'm beginning to think that the baggy my LHBS labeled Di-Ammonium Phosphate yeast nutrient is not or is not pure DAP.

What does your guys DAP look like? Mine has an ultra-fine white powder with bead-like translucent crystals mixed in, which along with my candi syrup results, is leading me to believe it's not pure DAP.
Click to expand...

I did this just to try out at the lower end of the level. I figured I'd be adding sugar to the recipe so why not? I think I could smell a hint of the ammonia from time to time.
 
Hermit said:
I did this just to try out at the lower end of the level. I figured I'd be adding sugar to the recipe so why not? I think I could smell a hint of the ammonia from time to time.
Click to expand...

I could definitely smell ammonia as well. I just noticed on my LHBS web page that they have yeast nutrient labeled as diammonium sulfate. Mine definitely says diammonium phosphate. I'm thinking that they mixed them up.
 
I use a half a batch of the mahogany syrup in my https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f66/caramel-amber-ale-167880/ and it is one of the best beers I've ever had, anywhere. The rich caramel flavor and aroma of the syrup make their way through to the final beer, and the syrup helps dry it out without hurting the maltiness. The result is that the smooth rich caramel from the syrup combines with the maltiness and caramel malt to really fill out the flavor. I recommend anyone who hasn't already to try this stuff in a beer. It doesn't have to be a belgian, it could work in anything.
 
I tried twice today to make sugar #5 for a belgian dubbel and failed miserably. The firs time I kept stirring it and then found out I shouldn't do that. The second was going much better and I turned my back for one second and it boiled over so I called it quits. Rest assured I will try again.
 
I've got a lot of experience boiling sugar for candy (family business, etc). You pot should be at least 4 times as "tall" as the sugar+water mixture you are boiling.

I've had no problems making the belgian candy syrup-it works better if you don't try to make it quickly---it should take about 30 minutes from when it starts to boil to color change (assuming 2 pound sugar and 1 1/2 cups water). If it takes less time to get up to 290F then the heat is too high.

The diammonium phosphate is the key to the maillard reaction. Its pretty easy to get sugar syrup up to 290F without changing its color if you don't burn it.

Last 2 batches of belgian candi I've waited to add the diammonium phosophate until the thermometer was at 240F--no sense in wasting the N at a lower temp when it wont work. Its seemed to go a little faster in terms of color change, and the ammonia smell isn't as bad. I suspect waiting to add until the temp is 240F of so makes more of the N available for the reaction.

There are a lot of different opinions about this on line and some people say this is "invert sugar".

This is not the same as making "invert" sugar with an acid (like lemon juice), and this is not the same as "carmalization". This is more like the browning of bread in the toaster--it is a change in the sugars to a complex molecule that tastes different that caramel. Its a fairly complex reaction, and the products are not exactly sugars.

tim
 
So there seem to be some veteran candy makers on this thread that can help me out here.

If my sugar "syrups" are crystalizing as soon as they cool (in essence I'm getting more of a paste that hardens very quickly), is my second terminal temp getting above soft ball (post water addition), or is my first terminal temperature too high (pre-water addition), or should I add more water? Color and flavors have been spot on with Snicks descriptions, but the consistency of the syrup is similar to what James Spencer and Steve get on the HBR sugar-making video podcast.
 
I'm far from being a veteran but....

I have just been turning the heat off as soon as the second water addition dissolves. It has remained a syrup even after I've cooled it down to room temperature. I had the same trouble after heating it back up to 240F. Give that a try.
 
Did Sugar #5 today, came out great. Definitely did not crystalise when it cooler, and it was VERY tasty.
 
I made some deep amber last night. I'm gonna use it in a 10 gallon batch of Belgian dubbel in the next few days.

Great recipe and instructions. Thanks for teaching me how to make this.
 
Hey - does anyone know if there's a good supermarket/drugstore sub for DAP when making this syrup? I'm really interested in trying this out, but I'd rather not make a special trip to the LHBS to get $1 worth of DAP if I don't have to. Has anyone had any luck with subs? Or (all you chemists out there) would any subs even work?

Thanks - great thread!
 
So I ended up just going to the LHBS and getting some DAP. Made the dark amber a few nights ago. Took a little longer than I expected (1.5 hours) and the ammonia smell didn't leave my nose until the next morning, but wow! That's some awesome stuff. I expected it to be tasty, but I definitely didn't expect it to be as rich as it is...flavors just kind of go on and on. I honestly think it'd be fantastic if drizzled over a nice dark cake.

Just dumped 1.5 lbs in a Dubble ... can't wait to see what it does to the beer.

Thanks a ton for this thread!
 
Dirtybeau said:
So there seem to be some veteran candy makers on this thread that can help me out here.

If my sugar "syrups" are crystalizing as soon as they cool (in essence I'm getting more of a paste that hardens very quickly), is my second terminal temp getting above soft ball (post water addition), or is my first terminal temperature too high (pre-water addition), or should I add more water? Color and flavors have been spot on with Snicks descriptions, but the consistency of the syrup is similar to what James Spencer and Steve get on the HBR sugar-making video podcast.
Click to expand...

I made the 290 tonight and also got the exact same crystallization upon cooling.

Color is perfect and it tastes great. But if I were making a homebrew today, I'd have to heat it back up to get back into a syrupy form. Don't think I'd want to plop it in the boil in this harder candy form. I think next time I'll pass on reaheating back to 240 and see if it's more syrupy as others have suggested.

Thanks for an awesome thread and for teachin me how to make this!
 
Make sure you're using beet sugar, supposedly cane sugar can crystallise on you.
 
Gremlyn1 said:
Make sure you're using beet sugar, supposedly cane sugar can crystallise on you.
Click to expand...

Last time I made up a batch I had problems with this but I did this batch differently. I decided to skip a step. Previously I had always used my pressure cooker to get the initial inversion. I've read that inverted sugar won't crystallize so there may be something to this. At 15 pounds pressure I get a very light caramel color going.
 
A decent thermometer is a must! I had 2 cheap candy thermometers that I figured I would use, but I was glad to have a good thermometer. The 2 candy thermometers read between 230-240F, but the syrup was turning very dark so I checked with my "good thermometer" and it read 290F. When you do the final reheat, you really do not want it to go past 240F or it'll get closer to hard candy the more over 240 you go.

Also I used regular US cheap cane sugar without a problem.
 
Well, I do have one of the cheap $10 thermos.

I maybe did let it creep up a few degrees over 240 on the reheat.

I need try practice again to try a few things a little differently.
 
I've made this about a half dozen times. If you don't mind a little extra volume of syrup, you really don't have to reheat this to 240F. Just heat it till boils again after the second water addition and you will not have to deal with the crystallization issue. It will stay syrupy even at room temp.
 
This is a great thread that I am sure has resulted in many very special brews.

After a bit of reading I decided that I would add this syrup (deep amber) to the primary of my dubbel after high krausen. From the standpoint of sanitation, what is the recommended procedure for adding to the primary? I was thinking about throwing it in the microwave for a 30 seconds or so before adding to the primary, but I am sure there is a better way.
 
smizak said:
I've made this about a half dozen times. If you don't mind a little extra volume of syrup, you really don't have to reheat this to 240F. Just heat it till boils again after the second water addition and you will not have to deal with the crystallization issue. It will stay syrupy even at room temp.
Click to expand...

I gave it another try and didn't reheat to 240 and it came out perfect! Nice and syrupy...and really tasty.

Don't know about sanitation with regards to adding to fermenting. I added the syrup to my boil on the Caramel Amber Ale so I can't answer your question.

Make this stuff....it rocks. To the OP...thanks for the research and teaching me how to make this!

Jeff
 
merc1 said:
From the standpoint of sanitation, what is the recommended procedure for adding to the primary? I was thinking about throwing it in the microwave for a 30 seconds or so before adding to the primary, but I am sure there is a better way.
Click to expand...

I just boil it for a minute or so with a lid on the pot, then cool it down in the freezer and add to beer. The steam and heat will sanitize the lid and inside of the pot.
 
Hermit said:
Care to elaborate? It should be inverted, though I can see the caramel....
Click to expand...

I apologize, I reread my post and it sounded snooty. Sorry bout that!

I am no expert here but that answer is somewhere in this thread. It's mentioned a few times and explained why it's neither. Not sure about the inverted sugar but I remember that it's not caramel because it's not heated up to a hot enough temperature to make or be caramel.

I'll research the thread later when I get home from work to get the inverted sugar answer.

Jeff
 
Freezeblade said:
This most certainly is inverted sugar, as the heat and pH causes the sucrose to become glucose and fructose, thus, inverted.
Click to expand...

The quote below is from one page back. In addition, the OP says it's a maillard reaction and not an invert sugar. To make inverted sugar/syrup you have to add acid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maillard_reaction

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_sugar_syrup

"I've got a lot of experience boiling sugar for candy (family business, etc). You pot should be at least 4 times as "tall" as the sugar+water mixture you are boiling.

I've had no problems making the belgian candy syrup-it works better if you don't try to make it quickly---it should take about 30 minutes from when it starts to boil to color change (assuming 2 pound sugar and 1 1/2 cups water). If it takes less time to get up to 290F then the heat is too high.

The diammonium phosphate is the key to the maillard reaction. Its pretty easy to get sugar syrup up to 290F without changing its color if you don't burn it.

There are a lot of different opinions about this on line and some people say this is "invert sugar".

This is not the same as making "invert" sugar with an acid (like lemon juice), and this is not the same as "carmalization". This is more like the browning of bread in the toaster--it is a change in the sugars to a complex molecule that tastes different that caramel. Its a fairly complex reaction, and the products are not exactly sugars.

tim"
 
Freezeblade said:
This most certainly is inverted sugar, as the heat and pH causes the sucrose to become glucose and fructose, thus, inverted.
Click to expand...
I bottle one 'clear' bottle. If I put the sugar in the pressure cooker with some acid it does carbonate faster than just plain boiled sugar. To me that indicates the yeast don't have to cleave the bond. This is how I start my candi sugar after having problems not doing it that way once. Always remained a syrup with no crystalization if I do the PC first.
 
The lighter versions may be non-inverted, but the sugar will also invert (maybe not completly) at higher temps. I've never had the darker versions of this syrup crystalize on me, where as the lighter ones have. to me this says that the sugar inverts, as non-inverted sucrose will crystalize every time without adding stabalizers.

From wiki: "Invert sugar syrup may also be produced without the use of acids or enzymes by thermal means alone: two parts granulated sucrose and one part water simmered for five to seven minutes will convert a modest portion to invert sugar."
 
Freezeblade said:
From wiki: "Invert sugar syrup may also be produced without the use of acids or enzymes by thermal means alone: two parts granulated sucrose and one part water simmered for five to seven minutes will convert a modest portion to invert sugar."
Click to expand...

but this is not how you make the syrup in this thread, not even close really. You add the DAP, there is no sucrose and you cook it for approx. an hour to an hour and a half.

My first batch just three days ago crystallized. Many folks in this thread have had THIS VERSION crystallize. If you follow the directions in the OP and reheat back up to softball at 240 you'll get a semi hard candy that will crystallize. If you don't reheat back to 240 you'll get syrup.
 
Centexbear said:
but this is not how you make the syrup in this thread, not even close really. You add the DAP, there is no sucrose and you cook it for approx. an hour to an hour and a half.

My first batch just three days ago crystallized. Many folks in this thread have had THIS VERSION crystallize. If you follow the directions in the OP and reheat back up to softball at 240 you'll get a semi hard candy that will crystallize. If you don't reheat back to 240 you'll get syrup.
Click to expand...

Of course there is sucrose. table sugar = sucrose. I've followed "sugar #5" to a tee many times, heating back up to 240 each time, and every time I get a thick syrup, that has not yet ever crystallized. Cooking it for an hour and a half is certainly adding heat and simmering, is it not? at least, sure looks like simmering when it's bubbling and cooking on a stove to me.

Edit: I've got some right next to me near my maple syrup, it's about 8 months old (last time I made the recipe). still a syrup, no crystals.
 
Freezeblade said:
Of course there is sucrose. table sugar = sucrose. I've followed "sugar #5" to a tee many times, heating back up to 240 each time, and every time I get a thick syrup, that has not yet ever crystallized. Cooking it for an hour and a half is certainly adding heat and simmering, is it not? at least, sure looks like simmering when it's bubbling and cooking on a stove to me.

Edit: I've got some right next to me near my maple syrup, it's about 8 months old (last time I made the recipe). still a syrup, no crystals.
Click to expand...

I don't recall any of these recipes having acid required to make them which is what is required to make inverted syrup/sugar but I could be wrong because I didn't make the #5.

I'm not going to get into an argument about it because I am no expert here. I am just some shlep that found the recipe and made it and like it.

All I know is the OP and another poster who's family trade is candy making both said it's not inverted sugar. I posted the Wiki links, which I, as a layman, can understand the difference between the two.

You seem to want to argue (and be a smart ass about it) that this is inverted sugar, so I'll bow out of this one and leave it to the experts.

Have a good day,
Jeff
 
OK...this is from post #7.

SnickASaurusRex said:
DAP provides Nitrogen for mailard reactions (non enzymatic browning) to occur. These occur between ~270F and ~320F. Another source of nitrogen is ammonium bicarbonate. It is a leaven used by professional bakers.

As DAP breaks down around ~270F it separates into two molecules of ammonium and dehydrate-phosphoric acid. So it provides both the nitrogen for browning and the acid for inversion.
Click to expand...

From post #27:
SnickASaurusRex said:
As I have said I have done quite a few side by side experiments. In all my maillard syrups that were not double cooked I have experienced crystallization. That is about 4 jars. DAP breaks down into ammonium and phosphoric acid, so there is an acid to aid in inversion. It is just that the syrups do not get hot enough to invert much, with or without the acid. Corn syrup would provide the necessary matrix blocking sugars to stop this. In the double cooked syrup there has been no sign of crystallization to date. That is because more of the sugars have broken down and changed into maillard compounds.

Remember there is a big difference between what I am making, and an invert syrup or caramel syrup. They are all three different processes. I was focusing on a maillard syrup.
Click to expand...

And when you make the #5, you add more DAP initially, therefore allowing for more inversion the second time you bring the syrup up to terminal temperature, resulting in a syrup which stays liquid.

And one more since we all know wikipedia is infallible.
 

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