Bad co2??

So I kegged a beer the Weekend before Thanksgiving, carbed it, and drank some of it Thanksgiving day. It tasted great! Went out of town Friday, when I got back Sunday I drew a pint off and I think it's contaminated, infected whatever you want to call it. The only variable I can think of is that the original co2 that it was on was from a nice little HBS store bottle, then Friday it got put on an extremely old co2 bottle that I bought off of someone with the co2 that was already in there when he had it. Can that co2 be trusted?? Could I have got an infection earlier in and it just took a few days to taste it???

If the co2 is the problem, can the bottle be trusted, simply empty it completely and go get it filled at my HBS??

Thanks for any input!!

With all the potential causes of infection from grain to glass, a CO2 bottle would rank way, way down the list...

Cheers!

C02 is C02. The only way I believe that it could have anything to do with the C02 tank you got would be from the connectors.

As the above poster mentioned, there are so many other things to look at that might have caused the issue.

Can you explain the off flavor?

Ok Thanks!! I was just thinking along the lines of the bottle or the co2 because the first couple of days the beer tasted great. Then 4 days later its infected after being on an old bottle and co2.

This afternoon I'm going to try to get some flavors and post them.

Appreciate it!

It depends on how old you consider old. It used to be possible to get "dirty" CO2 10-15 years ago, but nowadays it's unheard of.

Wow, I hadn't thought about this potential. Does anyone have a proceedure when setting up a new CO2 distribution system? Can you just blow some Starsan through the gas lines and distribution blocks to the ball locks, into an empty keg? I just set up the first section of my distribution system and only have one keg hooked up, so I'd like to do whatever I need to now.

Belenus said:

Wow, I hadn't thought about this potential. Does anyone have a proceedure when setting up a new CO2 distribution system? Can you just blow some Starsan through the gas lines and distribution blocks to the ball locks, into an empty keg? I just set up the first section of my distribution system and only have one keg hooked up, so I'd like to do whatever I need to now.

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I actually just started a thread asking this exact same question. I realized I've got a CO2 regulator in my truck that I bought several years ago and I'm sure it's far from sanitized.

SmokingGunn said:

It depends on how old you consider old. It used to be possible to get "dirty" CO2 10-15 years ago, but nowadays it's unheard of.

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It is still VERY possible to get dirty co2. Ive been into paintball since i was old enough to play and have seen some pretty nasty stuff with co2, compressed air, and nitrogen.

As i said before, C02 is C02.

If your provider is giving you a mix of other junk, then of course you'll have issues. Just make sure to ask them and let them know what you're using it for.

I've also heard of canisters being the source of the off flavor and I've personally experienced that.

I still suggest you post the actual flavors you are experiencing

Adrenaline-Junkie said:

It is still VERY possible to get dirty co2. Ive been into paintball since i was old enough to play and have seen some pretty nasty stuff with co2, compressed air, and nitrogen.

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I was talking about from the producers, but I suppose you're right. If the distributor uses the same manifolds for all of their products, there very well could be contamination depending on their vacuum/purging practices. The company I deal with has a completely separate manifold for their CO2.

SmokingGunn said:

I was talking about from the producers, but I suppose you're right. If the distributor uses the same manifolds for all of their products, there very well could be contamination depending on their vacuum/purging practices. The company I deal with has a completely separate manifold for their CO2.

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Well that would make sense too.

But since you've already confirmed they are using a separate manifold, it will be hard to confirm the source of the off flavors without a good description of the flavor.

I have been around welding industry and gas companies for about ten years now and there have been several instances that a CO2, Argon, Helium, or Nitrogen tank has been filled with the wrong gas.

samperry007 said:

I have been around welding industry and gas companies for about ten years now and there have been several instances that a CO2, Argon, Helium, or Nitrogen tank has been filled with the wrong gas.

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Now helium would make for one interesting party..

Drink beer, sound like a chorus of midgets...

This has happend to me before, beer tastes fine out of the carboy but once pressurized takes on a metallic kind of astringent taste.

samperry007 said:

I have been around welding industry and gas companies for about ten years now and there have been several instances that a CO2, Argon, Helium, or Nitrogen tank has been filled with the wrong gas.

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I've got about six years in the business, and I've seen argon that was contaminated with oxygen, and trace elements of argon in helium... like, ppm's picked up by a lab that was analyzing it with a mass spectrometer. I guess it depends on the distributor.

This is not relevant, I just wanted to use this smiley:

alane1 said:

This has happend to me before, beer tastes fine out of the carboy but once pressurized takes on a metallic kind of astringent taste.

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That sounds more like the carbonic acid bite you can get when the beer is over carbonated. Easy to do when force carbonating a keg, especially if you use the "crank and shake" method instead of the "set it and forget it" method.

It leaves a weird metal after taste. Like if you had a coin in your mouth.

Set it and forget it?? Could you give me psi and days on that
Thanks for all the input

The crazy thing is, on the first day of drinking it, it tasted fine after being on my brothers new bottle and co2. Put it in my kegerator for the weekend, pressured it up with this really old bottle and co2, then it tastes infected. That's why I think it has something to do with the bottle.

Or is possible it was always infected, the off tastes just happen to not come out until that second go round of drawing off it

Just a question--

When you drank the beer the second time did you pour more than one glass from the keg?

The reason for my question is -- Maybe your keg cooled and sat for the weekend and the yeast settled at the bottom of the keg. Then when you poured your beer you picked up most of the yeast sitting at the bottom of the keg. When you tasted your beer you actually tasted the result of yeast sediment. Perhaps this is the off taste you tasted. If you poured more than two or three glasses and it still tasted bad, then you can't blame yeast sediment.

Anyway, I hope it all works out for ya!

I'm going to guess that your beer is over carbonated. What is the pressure on your regulator? Over carbonated beer will taste sour or bitter, with a strong "bite" from carbonic acid.

CO2 is CO2 is CO2. It doesn't get "old" or go "bad." It's a chemical compound that doesn't really react with anything to get "bad."

TX-straggler said:

It leaves a weird metal after taste. Like if you had a coin in your mouth.

Set it and forget it?? Could you give me psi and days on that
Thanks for all the input

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For a great explination, take a look at the sticky on force carbination at the top of this section.

But as a quick overview, you would use a chart like this one http://www.kegerators.com/carbonation-table.php to figure out the pressure needed at a particular temp to get to the volume of disolved CO2 that you are looking for.

So for example, if your kegs are at 39 degrees, and you want 2.4 vols of CO2, you would set the pressure at 11 PSI. With the "set it and forget it" method, you simply set the pressure and let the keg sit at temperature for a couple of weeks (2-3 weeks is usually enough for my kegs). The same beer at 45 degrees, would need 14psi to get to the same level of disolved CO2.

KurtB why does it take so long to to carbonate your kegs?

On that same topic why don't any of the charts indicate the time it takes at the indicated temps and pressures for a 5 gallons of beer?

daksin said:

I'm going to guess that your beer is over carbonated. What is the pressure on your regulator? Over carbonated beer will taste sour or bitter, with a strong "bite" from carbonic acid.

CO2 is CO2 is CO2. It doesn't get "old" or go "bad." It's a chemical compound that doesn't really react with anything to get "bad."

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So is it as simple as leaving it off if the co2 for a while if I did in fact over carb?? Will it have that over carbed off taste for good now??

Physics is why it takes a while when simply setting the correct pressure and letting the CO2 dissolve (and probably some chemistry, but neither is my strong suit). I am not aware of any hard study that was done in the brewing community to figure out the exact point where equilibrium is achieved. My kegs may actually be carbonated within a week or so, at least to a drinkable point, but because I have kegs in the pipeline I don't even check them until the two or three week point, and often later than that. Besides, waiting a few weeks allows the beer to condition a bit more. If I need a keg to carbonate more quickly, I will hook it up to 30psi in my keezer for about 24 hours, then bleed it off and hook it to the lower pressure to finish. This seems to get good results within a few days to about a week.

My guess as to why nobody has put out a chart that includes the necessary time frame would have to do with the endless array of variables that may come into play. I would assume the shape of the keg and the surface area the specific shape creates would influence the speed that the beer carbonates. The temp/vol relationship comes into play as well. A keg at 60 degrees & 23psi will carbonate more slowly than one that is at 36 degrees & 10psi - though the volume of CO2 that is dissolved is the same. I am sure the volume of beer being carbonated would also come into play. What the chart allows me to do is know that for as long as I have the keg at the proper temperature & the CO2 to the correct psi, I will not have over carbonated beer.

I am sure the amount of time it takes to carbonate for a fixed set of rules (5 gallons of beer at 35 degrees, 2.4 vols, standard ball lock corney keg) could be calculated, and probably has been more than once, by somebody with more of a physics/chemistry background that I have (and the desire to do it), but is it really necessary? The keg will be carbed when it is carbed (similar to bottle carbonation, but without the complications of a natural fermentation generating the CO2). If it takes an extra day or two it probably isn't a big deal, especially once a pipeline has been established. There are many things that this hobby has taught me, but probably the two biggest things have been patience and longer range planning. In nearly everything I do I am a "wait until the last minute" person, but I know that if I need to have a beer ready to be served on a specific date, I need to plan on having it ready at least a week in advance or maybe even more just in case.

TX-straggler said:

So is it as simple as leaving it off if the co2 for a while if I did in fact over carb?? Will it have that over carbed off taste for good now??

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Leave it off the CO2 and occationally vent the extra co2 out of the keg. Letting the beer warm up a bit will cause the extra CO2 to come out of solution more quickly. If you end up bleeding off too much and your beer ends up under carbed, that will fix itself once you hook the keg back up to the CO2 with the correct pressure for the temperature of your beer.

Will it still have that over carbed taste? It is hard to say. I over carbed two beers when I first started kegging. The taste in the blonde ale never seemed to go away, but I had a brown ale that the taste improved quite a bit (though in reading my notes it does not appear to have ever gone away completely).

KurtB said:

Leave it off the CO2 and occationally vent the extra co2 out of the keg. Letting the beer warm up a bit will cause the extra CO2 to come out of solution more quickly. If you end up bleeding off too much and your beer ends up under carbed, that will fix itself once you hook the keg back up to the CO2 with the correct pressure for the temperature of your beer.

Will it still have that over carbed taste? It is hard to say. I over carbed two beers when I first started kegging. The taste in the blonde ale never seemed to go away, but I had a brown ale that the taste improved quite a bit (though in reading my notes it does not appear to have ever gone away completely).

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Thanks a lot !!

Perhaps maybe you got some nastiness blown back into your CO2 fitting/line from your last keg, then once you hooked it up to your new keg, it pushed the nasties in? Just a thought, but probably unlikely.

I just had the same kind of problem; never had diacetyl but a recent lager just developed diacetyl after a couple weeks on the co2. Sometimes diacetyl (which can come from a bacterial infection and taste like it) gets worse with time.

SpeedYellow said:

Perhaps maybe you got some nastiness blown back into your CO2 fitting/line from your last keg, then once you hooked it up to your new keg, it pushed the nasties in? Just a thought, but probably unlikely.[…]

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If that actually happened the regulator would be filled with beer. Hard to miss something like that...

Cheers!

I once had a metallic off flavor that I did everything to track down. Eventually I ordered a new gas system, Voila, no more metallic taste. I ended up with rust in the tank. I guess from temperature changes and what not.

CoalCracker said:

I once had a metallic off flavor that I did everything to track down. Eventually I ordered a new gas system, Voila, no more metallic taste. I ended up with rust in the tank. I guess from temperature changes and what not.

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They can rust internally for several reasons. Left outdoors with the valve open they can draw in moisture. I've seen cases where the hydro tester didnt thoroughly dry the cylinder after testing. If you think there's even a slight chance of internal rusting, dump the cylinder and have it tested immediately. I've seen one explode and it aint pretty. This particular case sent a guy to the hospital that led to his early retirement. A cylinder next to the one that exploded flew about 40 feet, ricocheted off a pole and then hit him in the head.

I'm not trying to scare anybody... I just can't over stress the importance of the safe handling off compressed gases. Respect 'em and they are invaluable. Neglect 'em and your beer making days could be cut short.

daksin said:

I'm going to guess that your beer is over carbonated. What is the pressure on your regulator? Over carbonated beer will taste sour or bitter, with a strong "bite" from carbonic acid.

CO2 is CO2 is CO2. It doesn't get "old" or go "bad." It's a chemical compound that doesn't really react with anything to get "bad."

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CO2 won't go bad but it will get a very distinct smell to it when it's old. But when I saw old I mean years old.

Do u have an aluminum cylinder or steel

LiquidLunch5211 said:

Do u have an aluminum cylinder or steel

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It's an old steel bottle, looks like one youd see at a welding shop. I'm over it though, doubt I will ever use it for beer again. I tried to rush into Kegging , buy the cheapest stuff to get there quick. Mistake.
Just gonna buy a brand new tank and co2 setup

If you purchase a new tank, make sure you locate a place that will simply fill it and not exchange it. Most places in my neck of the woods will simply exchange your nice shiny new tank for a repainted/rusty steel one. There are places that will re-fill your tank, but you may have to so some investigating around your area. A couple good places to look are fire extinguisher companies and paintball equipment suppliers.

Fire extinguisher companies and paintball shops all get their gas from welding supply companies.

SmokingGunn said:

Fire extinguisher companies and paintball shops all get their gas from welding supply companies.

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I am sure many of them probably do. Most likely TX-straggler's LHBS does the same (or maybe from some bulk supplier like Praxair).

At least if he takes his nice new shiny tank to the store to get it filled instead of exchanged he will still have a nice new shiny tank when he walks out of the store (even if it is filled with basicaly the same CO2 out of a rusty repainted steel bottle that he would have gotten with an exchange).

I think the biggest problem TX-straggler had was simply a lack of knowledge on how to properly carbonate kegged beer, not a problem with the CO2 that was in the tank he purchased or even the tank itself. Hopefully he is beyond that lack of knowledge through the information provided in this thread and any other threads that he has read when trying to solve his problem.

TX-straggler said:

It's an old steel bottle, looks like one youd see at a welding shop. I'm over it though, doubt I will ever use it for beer again. I tried to rush into Kegging , buy the cheapest stuff to get there quick. Mistake.
Just gonna buy a brand new tank and co2 setup

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Old steel cylinders with older co2 will absolutely have a distinct smell. Try aluminum cylinders.

I own a fire extinguisher company and we always refill the customers cylinder. I would recommend that you ask for the same service. We roll over about 4 tons of CO2 semiannually. But like I said before I can tell what we call in the shop "old CO2" so I would assume you could taste that in the beer.

I got through around 20 replies before I replied. Not my norm, usually read them all.

The CO2 bought at welding shops and such is very, very clean. And the tanks they are put in, if from a reputable shop have to have a DOT inspection before being certified or recertified.

Having said that, steel tanks can corrode under the right conditions.

But I really doubt you have a corroded tank. Probably more likely carbonic acid is what you are tasting.

I've gotten the off flavor before with an aluminum tank that I over carbed the beer with when I first started kegging..

Just my two pennies. Counts for not much.

I was given a soda keg setup with a steel tank. It is a few years out of service.

I intend to use it to serve my beer at a wedding reception. I have never had my own setup.

1 Can the chemical compostion/purity be verified.

2 Is there a way to look inside and see if there is rust?