Underground beer dinners

Hey all

Just feeling something out here, wondering if you think there's enough interest. You may have heard about "underground restaurants" popping up across the US. From Wikipedia:

Also known as a supper club, is an eating establishment operated out of someone's home, generally (though not invariably) bypassing local zoning and health-code regulations. They are, in effect, paying dinner parties. They are usually advertised by word of mouth or guerilla advertising, often on Facebook, and may require references to make a reservation.

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I was thinking of getting something going in my apartment, but with homebrew as the main beverage to pair/cook with. Normally these "underground" restaurants are catering more to the "foodies" than beer geeks, but I think there might be a niche for this. What do you think, would you go to a beer dinner hosted by someone you don't directly know in a place you've never been, and pay money for it?

MikeRLynch said:

Hey all

Just feeling something out here, wondering if you think there's enough interest. You may have heard about "underground restaurants" popping up across the US. From Wikipedia:



I was thinking of getting something going in my apartment, but with homebrew as the main beverage to pair/cook with. Normally these "underground" restaurants are catering more to the "foodies" than beer geeks, but I think there might be a niche for this. What do you think, would you go to a beer dinner hosted by someone you don't directly know in a place you've never been, and pay money for it?

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Your asking for all sorts of trouble, i would not attend becouse i would not eat anything from someone i dont know that is not inspected/licensed. You throw beer into that mix and you've set yourself up for all sorts of federal violations.

I would not say anything about this on the largest home brew forum. This is like asking a policeman how good your bag of pot smells...

I would do this with friends, but not strangers.

In fact, we had a great dinner party with some friends this past weekend. Not homebrew, though I did bring a pre-bottled sample of my Belgian Golden Strong to pass around. We did have about eight different beers and they all went well with the food served.

But no, I wouldn't go this route with a stranger. ESPECIALLY if you're going to CHARGE someone to come and drink HOMEBREW. What is this, 1928?

Charging for food out of an unlicensed kitchen is asking for health code violations, but trying to charge for home-brew is breaking federal law.

On the other hand there's nothing stopping you from inviting a few people to your house and putting out a tip jar

Yeah I agree I would not attend something like this. I wouldn't attend it for food either with all the whackos that are in the world.

Hmm, wow, seems like you guys are a little skittish

As far as being busted for health violations or alcohol, it's extreamly rare. Many chief health inspectors are aware of these "restaurants," but unless there's a complaint about someone getting sick, they don't waste their time.

The money thing is handled in a "suggested donation" format, kind of like club dues. Essentially, this would be a "private" dinner club, with the members being made up of people who either know me, or one of my friends. It may expand farther than that eventually. Some of the bigger underground places have 4000 people on a mailing list, waiting for a spot to open up at 14 person dinners.

I'm not a terrible cook, and I have some friends who work in restaurants that could give me a hand. This would be like a mix between opening up a tiny cafe/brewpub and a speakeasy. C'mon, none of you beer guys are adventurous? Personally I wouldn't mind shelling out $30 for a 4 course meal with beer pairings.

seems like a cool idea, but wouldnt advertise it of course.

i have been to a underground restaurant once, main corse was shanghai crab, which is banned in the US (there are exceptions). it was a great experience and would have been legendary if there was homebrew.

as far as federal laws, i see it no different than going to a friends house to smoke weed (which i would say almost every college student does).

im not saying to go ahead with your plan, but i like the idea.

I've heard of groups like this. My opinion in the matter is this:

If it's a for profit group then it's wrong. Now if you and some friends have a weekly meal to disscuss food/beer and everyone pitches in either time or money as it's seen fit then that is your choice. If people invite others and you wish to expand that's your choice.

If your looking to open a restaurant in your house and sell homebrew then it doesn't belong on a forum like this.

Look at I like poker games. If you and your buddies get together every week and play no one is going to come knock on your door. If random strNgers start shoeing up and you start charging a rake then you run the risk of the police showing up as soon as someone gets pissed off.


Either way I would do more research, but by not putting yourself out on the line by asking questions as yeah health inspectors might not care but the police and state and Feds might care if they find out someone is selling homebrew and they are not getting their cut of it

Seems like there is always someone on here posting some crazy way to get around the law and charge for their homebrew.

I don't think its a good idea.

Would there be strippers?

nah, c'mon... joking. I dunno... I kind of agree with some of the previous thoughts about opening it up to strangers.

if you're part of a brew club and you basically tell the club, "hey, I'm doing a beer dinner and you punks can all come but you're pitching in to help pay for the food".... that's ONE thing and I can't see anything wrong with that. MAYBE you could get in trouble for "serving your beer" but I seriously doubt it.

Going down the path of "guerilla advertising" and opening things up to the public and people you don't know.... charging for food AND serving home-made alcohol??? That's a whole 'nother thing and that would give me the heebie jeebies REALLY quickly. And no, I really doubt I would go to something like that.

No on both sides of this. I would not go to a stranger’s apartment to pay for dinner and I would not want strangers in my apartment either. Pretty convenient for a robbery though.

Huh, I'm surprised. I thought that homebrewers might be more open to this idea, after all it was homebrewers who started speakeasies in the first place.

Don't let the Man get you down guys

MikeRLynch said:

Hmm, wow, seems like you guys are a little skittish

As far as being busted for health violations or alcohol, it's extreamly rare. Many chief health inspectors are aware of these "restaurants," but unless there's a complaint about someone getting sick, they don't waste their time.

The money thing is handled in a "suggested donation" format, kind of like club dues. Essentially, this would be a "private" dinner club, with the members being made up of people who either know me, or one of my friends. It may expand farther than that eventually. Some of the bigger underground places have 4000 people on a mailing list, waiting for a spot to open up at 14 person dinners.

I'm not a terrible cook, and I have some friends who work in restaurants that could give me a hand. This would be like a mix between opening up a tiny cafe/brewpub and a speakeasy. C'mon, none of you beer guys are adventurous? Personally I wouldn't mind shelling out $30 for a 4 course meal with beer pairings.

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I guess I missed this part. Well, if it is your friends and their friends I would feel uncomfortable charging them for dinner and drinks and I doubt I have that many friends that would be interested in coming over to pay for it either especially enough to make it worth doing. Sounds to me like a dinner party everyone chips in on that are all friends in some way, not strangers off the street or over the internet. That is different.

I'd think this is the same problem as hosting a home poker game, and advertising through word of mouth.

Sooner or later, the wrong type of people will find out, and there will be trouble.

Invite people over personally, but don't advertise. Also, don't say anything about 'supplying' the brew. Offer some to people who are there, but don't sell it or even 'accept donations' for it.

Save yourself a headache!

MikeRLynch said:

I thought that homebrewers might be more open to this idea, after all it was homebrewers who started speakeasies in the first place.

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I may be wrong but I do not believe this statement to be accurate. There were "Ale Wives" and "Ale houses" PRIOR to prohibition and they MAY have done something similar to what you are describing during prohibition...

Speakeasys were "underground" bars that were run by the mafia NOT homebrewers (Unless there were mafia homebrewers but I doubt this...). The mafia would run Whiskey or "bathtub alcohol" normally down from Canada or from a secluded "stil" to the speakeasy. This alcohol was awful. It was normally SO bad that they had to cut it with something like juice or soda just to be able to ingest it! This gave birth to what we now know as a "mixed drinks".

At any rate there are 2 ways to do this. The right/legal way and the wrong/illegal way. If you want to open a business, I SERIOUSLY encourage you to look into doing this legally. I believe that there are TONS of ways and help to start up a business, including government grants. I personally would rather have the government behind me than to be on the unfriendly side of a raid, especially a federal one!

I think the main problem is that the US is the biggest producer of laws, and to an extent, a police state (the patriot act for example).

One little slip up and the law comes down hard, which can be quite terrifying. However, as long as you're a good submissive law abiding citizen, there are no worries.

For most thing that you think are a good idea, its either illegal or you pay out the ass in taxes.

jordanpace said:

I think the main problem is that the US is the biggest producer of laws, and to an extent, a police state (the patriot act for example).

One little slip up and the law comes down hard, which can be quite terrifying. However, as long as you're a good submissive law abiding citizen, there are no worries.

For most thing that you think are a good idea, its either illegal or you pay out the ass in taxes.

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Good point, and I agree, but taking the topic in this direction probably makes it better fodder for the debate forum. Actually, that might be a good idea anyway.

I didn't really intend to debate the legalities, I'm well aware of where these underground restaurants stand. I was really just curious about interest, to see if this is something people would want to try.

We can debate the laws forever, but I will say this one thing; homebrewing lived in the shadows for a long time before it was legal. I'm willing to bet that a fair amount of the people on these boards remember days when it was still "breaking the law," but they did it anyway. Even now in some states, this hobby of ours is still "wrong" in the laws eyes. Not to mention many of you who use postal carriers to "illegally" ship your homebrew to competitions across state lines.

I know that this idea is "illegal." I'm just not convinced it's "bad."

Anyway, debate wasn't the intent here, but good convo anyway

MikeRLynch said:

I didn't really intend to debate the legalities, I'm well aware of where these underground restaurants stand. I was really just curious about interest, to see if this is something people would want to try.

We can debate the laws forever, but I will say this one thing; homebrewing lived in the shadows for a long time before it was legal. I'm willing to bet that a fair amount of the people on these boards remember days when it was still "breaking the law," but they did it anyway. Even now in some states, this hobby of ours is still "wrong" in the laws eyes. Not to mention many of you who use postal carriers to "illegally" ship your homebrew to competitions across state lines.

I know that this idea is "illegal." I'm just not convinced it's "bad."

Anyway, debate wasn't the intent here, but good convo anyway

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But it is not illegal to buy beer today, brew my own, enjoy my friend's brew (at least here) or to eat food so I don't see the reason why I would want to go to a stranger’s apartment to pay to eat and drink his stuff. That is just me though.

At lot about licensing has to do with trying to ensure the public is served safe food. Some may argue that their kitchen and practices are far better than most restaurants and I don't doubt that, but I like to know in a public restaurant where I do not get to see what goes on in the kitchen that someone at least inspects it regularly for my own good. Sure they are out to make money too but I am ok with that, a restaurant that can bring in customers apparently has no problems paying. Hell, I have some friends that I would not want to eat what has come from their kitchen.

MikeRLynch said:

I didn't really intend to debate the legalities, I'm well aware of where these underground restaurants stand. I was really just curious about interest, to see if this is something people would want to try.

We can debate the laws forever, but I will say this one thing; homebrewing lived in the shadows for a long time before it was legal. I'm willing to bet that a fair amount of the people on these boards remember days when it was still "breaking the law," but they did it anyway. Even now in some states, this hobby of ours is still "wrong" in the laws eyes. Not to mention many of you who use postal carriers to "illegally" ship your homebrew to competitions across state lines.

I know that this idea is "illegal." I'm just not convinced it's "bad."

Anyway, debate wasn't the intent here, but good convo anyway

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Maybe it is an age thing why this is working in some instances? I am older than you but I remember in my teens and 20's not thinking twice about showing up at someone’s house I do not know because a friend of a friend invited me. I was just looking for a party to have fun at. No way in the world would I see myself doing that today.

jgln said:

Maybe it is an age thing why this is working in some instances? I am older than you but I remember in my teens and 20's not thinking twice about showing up at someone’s house I do not know because a friend of a friend invited me. I was just looking for a party to have fun at. No way in the world would I see myself doing that today.

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So, you wouldn't go to a friend of a friends house for some beers and food?

It seems like fear, both of the cleanliness of the food/beer and of other people in general is the main deterrant here. I find that kind of sad. I'm a cynic, to be sure, but at the same time I don't assume everyone I don't know is out to rob me.

I think it is a good idea that would be successful if you make good/creative food and your beer is good.

However, this is a really bad place to discuss it or even bring it up, as you have already seen.

And,like a stray cat. You feed them and they will keep showing back up..

Not to knock the forum, I understand the reasoning, but remember when you bring something like this up, the "moral majority" immediately slams you. Found a keg? Return it! Asked your friend to through you a few bucks because he asked for a growler? Go straight to jail! Do not pass go! Marijuana in beer... (I'll stop myself here..)

I think it's a good idea, but would lean more towards doing it with friends. That's just because I am not cool with strangers though. I've never been a very social person with people I don't know, so this concept wouldn't work for me. BUT, if you like meeting new people in cool, different ways, this sounds like a great way to bring one of your interests into that scene.

Best of luck!

I think what is throwing some folks (at least it is throwing me) is the "who" in terms of who would be attending something like this.

- Friends? Obviously no issue
- Friends of friends? Still no issue since I would just make the friends responsible for THEIR friends.
- Co-club members? Absolutely
- Random people off the street because I hung up a flyer?? Ehhhh... that's where you lose me.


and the whole money part is also kinda vague...

- collecting a few bucks from friends to help pay for the food? Sure, no problem at all for me
- charging for food and alcohol, in my home, for... again... random people off the street? I don't think people are really being preachy... I just really don't think a lot of folks are comfortable with that.

Boerderij_Kabouter said:

I think it is a good idea that would be successful if you make good/creative food and your beer is good.

However, this is a really bad place to discuss it or even bring it up, as you have already seen.

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Thanks Kabouter, I posted this to get a feel for what other homebrewers might think of the idea, and I guess I'm just a little surprised at the negative response. Thanks to everyone who responded, one way or the other. It's good to get honest feedback for what others are into or not.

if you wanna have a dinner party with friends and friends of friends, why does it matter if we'd do it.
if you wanna run an unlicensed restaurant/bar, its gonna be trouble.

i dont know about where you live, but around here the local police would be on it faster than flies on a fresh dog turd.

of course, if a friend of mine was having a similar gathering, I might do it, but I doubt I'd be paying for anything. maybe a potluck style dinner with beverages would be a good option

MikeRLynch said:

So, you wouldn't go to a friend of a friends house for some beers and food?

It seems like fear, both of the cleanliness of the food/beer and of other people in general is the main deterrant here. I find that kind of sad. I'm a cynic, to be sure, but at the same time I don't assume everyone I don't know is out to rob me.

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Sure I have no problem inviting friends for some beers and food; I just don't like the idea of setting it up like a restaurant and charging them.

Yes and somewhat yes. I do have a fear of cleanliness, I have been in people's houses where the roaches were so bad the clock on the range was half full of dead ones (I still see this guy every once in a while). On the other hand I have no problem eating the food most of my FRIENDS cook in their kitchen.

As far a people go no I don't open my house up to strangers to visit for food and drink, call me crazy if you like.

I think we need to define friends or customers here. You make it sound like a business, I guess I am confused what your plan is. No problem with friends coming over (no charge) but problem with making my home a public restaurant.

Thanks for the dig too, I will lose sleep tonight.

jgln said:

Thanks for the dig too, I will lose sleep tonight.

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No dig intended, just a little surprised by the answer is all Like I said, one way or the other this is all good info to know.

MikeRLynch said:

No dig intended, just a little surprised by the answer is all Like I said, one way or the other this is all good info to know.

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I am actually enjoying the conversation and also find it interesting what people have to say.

I saw something about this -or something like it- on a TV show, Bourdain's, I think. What seems to be important is the "suggested donation" format, thereby getting around the idea that you're a profit-making business, and the idea that this is NOT held in the same place twice....or at least twice in a row. Those who have confirmed reservations are usually called not that long ahead of time and informed where the dinner is taking place. The show I watched had dinners featuring "gray market" foods that normally wouldn't be available in this country.

Of course, depending on the state and locality, even this kind of arrangement might easily fall afoul of one or more of all the thousands of laws, statutes, regulations, etc. that The Land of the Free is more liberally littered with all the time. I am one of those who feel that the inclusion of alcoholic beverages with the meal could lead to a more complex situation.

I would be careful before getting into this that I knew my ground very, very well, and I would go to great lengths to ensure that there was never even one complaint.

As far as this topic on a homebrew forum....well, there are guys on the Equipment thread talking about cooking up commercial brew rigs all the time, so I don't see this as being any more off-homebrewing than a lot of other things I read here. There are all kinds of people on HBT and other forums who comment quite blandly about brewing WAY over 200 gallons a year, which is against Federal law, no matter how you slice it.

i think it is a fine idea to invite friends over and share food and beer with them. the second you charge is no good. If you put out a pot and they put in a few bucks to help you make more beer, it is OK in my opinion but quite probably crossing the line of charging for your beer ... generally friends will offer to bring beer, wine, food, entertainment etc.

rico567 said:

I saw something about this -or something like it- on a TV show, Bourdain's, I think. What seems to be important is the "suggested donation" format, thereby getting around the idea that you're a profit-making business, and the idea that this is NOT held in the same place twice....or at least twice in a row. Those who have confirmed reservations are usually called not that long ahead of time and informed where the dinner is taking place. The show I watched had dinners featuring "gray market" foods that normally wouldn't be available in this country.
Of course, depending on the state and locality, even this kind of arrangement might easily fall afoul of one or more of all the thousands of laws, statutes, regulations, etc. that The Land of the Free is more liberally littered with all the time. I am one of those who feel that the inclusion of alcoholic beverages with the meal could lead to a more complex situation.

I would be careful before getting into this that I knew my ground very, very well, and I would go to great lengths to ensure that there was never even one complaint.

As far as this topic on a homebrew forum....well, there are guys on the Equipment thread talking about cooking up commercial brew rigs all the time, so I don't see this as being any more off-homebrewing than a lot of other things I read here. There are all kinds of people on HBT and other forums who comment quite blandly about brewing WAY over 200 gallons a year, which is against Federal law, no matter how you slice it.

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Didn't he say that afterward they all found out one of their kidneys were removed? LOL :cross:

Wow. I'm really surprised by the responses here. This sort of underground kitchen thing is more common than you might think (especially in the PNW). You are not going to get caught by talking about having 10 people over to pay for a dinner and beer tasting at your house on a forum! There are weed-growing forums with hundreds of members still doing their thing! One of these dinners was even on an Anthony Bourdain Episode (Portland or Seattle..?). (okay i see that was mentioned)

I would totally be down for this, I would trust the cooking of a friend of a friend's as far as safety/cleanliness more than most restaurants. It would obviously start with friends and friends of friends but may branch out a bit as people find out. Good food, Homebrew, good company - sounds like a good idea to me! You're obviously not making much money off of it, but enough that you're not getting robbed and come out ahead. do it!

If I'm not wrong aren't most of these "underground" restraunts successful because the ones preparing the menu/food are know chefs etc. Unless you have a presence in the local food scene I don't see how you would generate much interest.

I will add I think most of the responses are people picturing if they would RUN a place like this NOT go to a place like this...

If this was done strictly word of mouth and with no "outside world" advertising, I bet you could do it for a good while and not get caught or have any real issues.

The problem lies when you do have an issue or get caught. I can not imagine you will be making money hand over fist, even under the best of conditions. The basic equation is, the risk is NOT worth the reward...

Just to be perfectly clear, you are talking about starting up an illegal brew pub. Home brewers have been fighting to get making beer for personal use legalized and this casts a "bad light" on the community as a whole, when someone decides the rules do not apply to them. This gets amplified when you are talking about doing something so many of us dream and aspire to do...so do not be "shocked" by the less than receptive responses here.

My question is why not open a legal one instead? You could even keep it small and invite only select people to come. At least you would have insurance (at least I hope you would) and not have to worry about jail/prison time which in MY opinion is the least of your concerns...

dozer217 said:

If I'm not wrong aren't most of these "underground" restraunts successful because the ones preparing the menu/food are know chefs etc. Unless you have a presence in the local food scene I don't see how you would generate much interest.

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Yea, I've never been to one, but they usually involve major foodies and chefs. I'm pretty sure a good bit of the time, they have a featured/guest chef or group of chefs. You really have to travel in the right circles to go to, or host a "real" underground kitchen. Bourdain did an episode on one where the chefs smuggled in a bunch of young unpasteurized French cheeses, and some other food oddities that are illegal to produce and import into the US.

Sounds kinda cool. I'd do something like this with friends or maybe friends of friends. No strangers though.

Beer & Nosh just penned an entry with pics of one he went to in San Francisco. Seemed pretty cool.

He went to one where the theme was Breakfast for Dinner:
Apéritif: Home Brewed IPA

First course: French Toast (cinnamon bread, egg), bruleed banana, coffee infused maple syrup paired with Lost Abbey’s Red Barn.

Second Course: Chilaquiles made with house-fried chips, house salsa verde, soul food egg sunny side up, queso fresco, crema paired with Oskar Blues' Mama’s Little Yella Pils.

Third Course: English Breakfast with house blood sausage, house-smoked bacon (honey brine), roasted heirloom tomato, pickled scotch egg, sauteed mushrooms paired with homebrewed Smoked Porter.

Fourth Course: Waffle with fig jam, blueberries, chocolate paired with homebrewed Belgian Quad.