Ya have to give credit where credit is due...

Ya have to give credit where credit is due...I just got done watching Age of Empires in regards to brewng and while I won't give the BMC beers a second glance I can appreciate the history of those breweries in regards to the US brewing story and the tumultuous times that they had to overcome (ie WW I and II along with Prohibition) It would he nice to try a vntage BMC pilsner from that tme...Take it for what its worth but they are somewhat instrumental to our hobby and the lifestyle...

Kind of. I mean, yea, their story of adversity is great and at the time when there were few options it would be easy to raise a glass and toast to that, but let's be honest - they are not concerned with making "good (quality)" beer now as much as they are about making a buck. It really comes down to what this hobby/industry is about, and to me it's comradery (sp?). Beer brings so many people from all different walks of life together. It allows you the opportunity to sit, relax, create, converse, etc etc. I think the "smaller" breweries today are much more commendable than BMC has ever been regardless of what they have or have not had to over come. These guys are not necessarily out to make a dollar but to help thy neighbor (if you will). If you have a favorite brew and contact your favorite brewery for said recipe you more than likely will be welcomed with open arms and flattery and you will end up with some variation of the recipe to brew on your own. The smaller breweries often get together to do a collaboration and create some signature limited beer. These are things you would never get from BMC bc the bottom line to them is money (thus rice as a major ingredient in their beer which I honestly think we can all agree is inferior to the quality ingredients used by microbrewers). Don't get me wrong, everyone needs to make a buck, and BMC is easy to hate based on market share alone, but at the end of they day it seems to me that they (current day) stand for everything that the brewing industry (on a minority level) doesn't.

I think proof that these guys are too big for their own good is in the fact that they try to create these "craft" beers and hide behind the labels - I'm looking at you Shock Top, Blue Moon, etc. Why suddenly is there a need to appeal to the "craft beer market?" Oh, bc it's another opportunity to make another dollar? It's just out of control IMO. They have SO much money, and SO many resources to push this industry far beyond what we know, yet they make rice beer that we know is cold when the Mtns turn blue (bc cold beer is a sure sign of good beer), or that is triple hopped (which is clearly unheard of), or that is "frost brewed" (which is what exactly?). It is all about using the cheapest ingredients to reduce overhead to make the most money possible and cover it up with marketing that we have become brain washed into thinking is desirable.

I know I am preaching to the choir, and I dont mean to blow up your post and be a jerk off bc I honestly am not approaching it that way, nor am I genuinely fired up - but I am sure you see my point.

It would be a good debate as to whether beer would be where it is today if we didnt have the history of BMC that we do today, and I too would love to try an original pilsner from them but let's not pretend they are pushing this industry in the right direction.

True, but it's not like craft breweries aren't out to make a buck either. I'm pretty sure everyone from Jim Koch to Sam Calagione very much enjoy the fat paycheck they're making, and I don't think any less of them for that. I think the only people really free from this criticism are the Trappist monks whose beer proceeds go back into the monasteries and the surrounding communities. Everyone else essentially combined a passion for beer with a way to make money off it, and there's nothing wrong with that.

As I said, everyone needs to make a buck. If you can do it by doing something you are passionate about kudos to you, I think you have acheived the American Dream and there is nothing wrong with that, but dont tell me Jim Koch and Sam Calagione are comparable to the wigs a BMC. One hand is connected to the people, the other couldnt be further removed.

Mistymountains, you have the right idea but I think your are using the wrong "evidence", so to speak, to back it up.

First off, this hobby/industry are two totally different things. A hobby is just that, a hobby. Anyone who is selling beer is doing it for the main reason of making money. Craft brewers may have a different idea and business model, but the purpose is the same: to make money.

The BMC companies are not "evil" to me because of how they make their beer. The vast majority of the beer drinking public buys it, and buys a LOT of it. You can't deny that, and no matter what we think, there is nothing wrong with that. If the product is not dangerous to people (and of course I know alcohol is in many aspects, but I mean dangerous as in cyanide as an ingredient, cancerous sweeteners, etc), then if they use pure table sugar to ferment into "beer" and people still want to buy it, well, how can you fault them? They aren't a government agency, so they have every right in a FREE MARKET to do what they are doing.

That said, their marketing and the way they leverage the market can be discussed in a negative light for sure. That's where the problem lies.

But if you think Joe Smith who opened a single-owner brew pub a mile from your house has a different goal in mind than BMC, you are sorely mistaken.

MistyMountainHops said:

As I said, everyone needs to make a buck. If you can do it by doing something you are passionate about kudos to you, I think you have acheived the American Dream and there is nothing wrong with that, but dont tell me Jim Koch and Sam Calagione are comparable to the wigs a BMC. One hand is connected to the people, the other couldnt be further removed.

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They're a lot closer than you think--many of the Anheuser Busch brewers are active in the craft and homebrew world, and very connected to the people.

Heck, Mitch Steele moved over from being the assistant brewmaster at A-B to being the head brewer for Stone.

I'm pretty sure the brewers at AB and other macros are not exactly excited about the beer they make day in and day out. I suspect they really want to try different recipes and showcase their talents in other styles.

However, you can't change Budweiser on a whim. They are beholden to the recipes and the customer expectations that have been built up for many years. And being a brewer on that scale has got to be a very different approach than a micro brewer, or homebrewer. I'm sure they must feel fairly disconnected from the beer itself.

I feel like we are saying the same thing to an extent, and forgive me for maybe not presenting this the way I should have.

I agree that it takes money to keep a business afloat, etc - but I still dont think many micros are out there for market domination (to the extent of AB). Obviously those would be big shoes to fill, and maybe I am naive, but I have to think that money is not the main motivating factor for some of these guys in the industry. As this all started - there has to be some sort of passion before the dollar.

I also agree that those guys at BMC probably arent too stoked on their limitations on what they have to brew day in and day out, thus people leaving the big boys to go start and or join smaller operations with more freedom. But to that point, was it about the money or was it about the ability to have creative freedom?

I dont hate BMC at all. I just hate these perceptions their marketing departments throw out there that are completely absurd. They have the resources to educate the majority of the market (that truly thinks their beer is the best - which is okay) on what brewing is, how the process really works, and on and on - yet they cloud the consumer's head with these "gimmicky" ad campaigns. I mean, I tip my hat to them bc I am sure the vortex bottle is going to increase sales, but really?!

Actually, I think that most regular people would see the vortex bottle as the BS marketing ploy that it is. There's a lot of dumb people in the world, but I don't think this is over their heads.

I understand mistymountains point completely, and i believe there are 2 different types of breweries. in it for the money, and in it for the taste. U might think that any brewery no matter the size is in the business to make a profit. but thats just not true. That's what advertising leads you to believe and BMC uses it to their full advantage. They lead us to believe that they use the highest quality ingredients so we can have quality/affordable beer to drink. BS. They use the cheapest possible ingredients and advertise that they use the best. Theres a reason why its so cheap and its not just due to the mass production. If a microbrewery wanted to switch to using less quality ingredients to save a buck then the quality of the beer will most likely suffer as well. So that company will increase their advertising to make sure they dont lose the respect that they already have. So now we have BMC, and things like mcdonalds and walmart. Gotta love the American dream

I'd say at this point BMC is nothing more than a money machine built off of cheap beer. The people that now work there can't influence the taste of the flagship beers anymore than you can get McD's to change the big mac even though your the guy makin it. A brewmaster for BMC is mostly just a guy with enough experience to "go through the motions" not getting paid to be creative. Most of the craft breweries seem to be in it more for the chance to put quality choices out in the market and profit from the effort seems to be second. For years I've avoided beers in relationship to how much advertising they get, the more they get, the more I stay away.

How is it that a BrewMaster at AB-Inbev is seen as less skilled than the college dropout who decides to brew beer for a living.

Many of the Industrial brewers are highly educated in the specifics of their fields. The brewmaster alone is the general know it all. While he may not hold a Masters in Biology I can assure you he is more familiar with the biological principle at work than many of us here.

However, said industry has a specific product set to produces and is actually highly focused onthe QUALITY (regardless of your opinion of ) that product. More so than ANY microbrewer. In fact, their drive for manitaning the quality is what drive MUCH of the science behind groundbreaking technologies.

Producing a quality product involves a lot more than throwing a 30 pounds of grain at 5 gallons of water.

Say what you want about how you perceive the flavor of their product but don't dare be so naive as to label it poor quality.

thezepster said:

I understand mistymountains point completely, and i believe there are 2 different types of breweries. in it for the money, and in it for the taste. U might think that any brewery no matter the size is in the business to make a profit. but thats just not true. That's what advertising leads you to believe and BMC uses it to their full advantage. They lead us to believe that they use the highest quality ingredients so we can have quality/affordable beer to drink. BS. They use the cheapest possible ingredients and advertise that they use the best. Theres a reason why its so cheap and its not just due to the mass production. If a microbrewery wanted to switch to using less quality ingredients to save a buck then the quality of the beer will most likely suffer as well. So that company will increase their advertising to make sure they dont lose the respect that they already have. So now we have BMC, and things like mcdonalds and walmart. Gotta love the American dream

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Maureen Ogle cleared up a lot of those "beer myths" that we beer snobs used to harbor to "keep us warm" and to somehow make us think that we're better than those who drink Bud products.....

America like most of the world had quite an extensive array of beers available prior to the German Invasion of brewer's which later introduced the light lager. They pretty much had the "brewing culture" of all the countries that people immigrated from...Most English beer styles..you know Porters, Stouts, Partigyles, stuff like that. As well as mostly heavy German Styles of beer. Not to mention people from Scotland, Ireland, Russia and other places where beer was drank.

Remember up until then, beer was food.

In fact thew whole history of the light lager is the American populace's (not the brewer's) desire to have a lighter beer to drink, which forced the German brewers to look at adding adjuncts like corn and rice...not as the popular homebrewer's myth has been to make money by peddling and "inferior commercial product" by adding adjuncts, but in order to come up with a style of beer that the American people wanted.

Maureen Ogle proved that in Ambitious Brew it actually made the cost of a bottle of Budweiser cost around 17.00/bottle in today's dollars.

When AH released Budweiser with it's corn and rice adjuncts in the 1860's it was the most expensive beer out there; a single bottle retailed for $1.00 (what would equal in today's Dollars for $17.00) this was quite difference when a schooner of beer usually cost a nickel.

The American populace ate it up!

It wasn't done to save money, it was done because heavy beers (both english style Ales and the heavier Bavarian malty beers) were not being drunk by American consumers any more. Beer initally was seen around the world as food (some even called it liquid bread), but since America, even in the 1800's was a prosperous nation compared to the rest of the world, and americans ate meat with nearly every meal, heavy beers had fallen out of favor...

And American Barley just made for heavy, hazy beer

Bush and other German Brewers started looking at other styles of Beers, and came upon Karl Balling and Anton Schwartz's work at the Prague Polytechnic Institute with the Brewers in Bohemia who when faced with a grain shortage started using adjuncts, which produced the pils which was light, sparkly and fruity tasting...just the thing for American tastebuds.

So the brewers brought Schwartz to America where he went to work for American Brewer Magazine writing articles and technical monographs, teaching American brewers how to use Rice and Corn...

The sad moral of the story is....The big corporate brewers did not foist tasteless adjunct laced fizzy water on us, like the popular mythology all of us beersnobs like to take to bed with us to feel all warm and elitist....it was done because our American ancestors wanted it.

Listen to this from Basic Brewing;

November 30, 2006 - Ambitious Brew Part One
We learn about the history of beer in the USA from Maureen Ogle, author of "Ambitious Brew - The Story of American Beer." Part one takes us from the Pilgrims to Prohibition.

http://media.libsyn.com/media/basicbrewing/bbr11-30-06.mp3

December 7, 2006 - Ambitious Brew Part Two
We continue our discussion about the history of beer in the USA with Maureen Ogle, author of "Ambitious Brew - The Story of American Beer." Part two takes us from Prohibition to the present day.

http://media.libsyn.com/media/basicbrewing/bbr12-07-06.mp3

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And actually many ale brewers use the same adjuncts in our beer. I've used corn in a few beers to add some creaminess or to thin out and dry the beers some, and they are drunk at whatever temp the style call for.

In fact some commercial bmc, if you let them warm up a bit actually have a nice taste. I've noticed it with lagers that utilize corn as their adjunct rather than the rice that Imbev/AH uses in their bud products. Llabatt's Blue actually taste pretty nice after the "chill" is taken away

That's some cool information Revvy. I'll remember the $17 comment when I explain to my wife why I spend so much on beer

Teromous said:

That's some cool information Revvy. I'll remember the $17 comment when I explain to my wife why I spend so much on beer

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Yeah that 50 bucks of hard to get in Michigan beers that my GF brough back for me from beertopia when she visited her sister in Omaha 2 weeks ago would have cost 860 in 1860 dollars......

MistyMountainHops said:

I also agree that those guys at BMC probably arent too stoked on their limitations on what they have to brew day in and day out, thus people leaving the big boys to go start and or join smaller operations with more freedom. But to that point, was it about the money or was it about the ability to have creative freedom?

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They get both. While at A-B, Mitch did things like Demon's Hop Yard IPA, Leaf Peeper Pils, Stone Face Ale, and the like--10 barrel batches of experimental brews that are served only on tap at specialty group beer tastings. It's a pretty sweet gig for a brewer, really. The brewing facilities themselves are state of the art and as good at achieving consistent, repeatable results as any in the world (which is awesome for doing experimental brewing, as you can be confident that you're making exactly what you set out to make). They have access to some of the most advanced brewing labs in the world to run whatever tests they want, which means when you get a bad batch or infection or something you can actually analyze it, figure out what went wrong, and dial in your process to avoid that problem in the future.

But it's also about the learning experience. It's not all that difficult as a small craft brewer or a home brewer to do some pretty radical brewing, trying all kinds of ingredients and basically letting your imagination run wild.

It's a lot harder to learn how to do quality control on a mass scale, big-batch brewing, ferm temp control, CIP cleaning techniques, etc. Working at A-B (or Coors, or Miller, or whatever) is an intensive course in a lot of things that are really difficult to learn on your own.

If you're interested in brewing for the next Stone or Bell's or whatever (something with at least moderate distribution and batch sizes), there are a lot of worse ways to spend a couple of years than apprenticing at a big macro.

Look at Mitch, again. When the guys at Stone hired him, they said this:

Logistics, raw materials, supply chain, production scheduling, brewery management, technical management, trouble shooting, quality and consistency...those are all areas where Mitch is known to be a superhero.

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Basically, he brings a ton of skills that are hugely valuable to running a good brewery and keeping their product high-quality and consistent.

But they also said this:

He recently sent us one of his homebrew Double IPAs. It kicked serious ass. Normally I like to speak in more refined language, but those four words really fit that beer quite well.

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He started as a home brewer, then went to San Andreas Brewing Co. (a small craft brewer) in Hollister, CA, for a while, learned all he could there, then moved over to A-B to learn what he could, and finally settled on Stone as a place to put it all together. He also acted as the New England District President for the Master Brewers Association of the Americas (MBAA).

All of those are valuable experiences to have when it comes to putting together a world-class craft brewery, and I'd be willing to bet that anyone who's managed to work as a brewer at one of the BMC breweries for a couple of years would have a huge leg up over most people when it came to trying to run the next awesome microbrewery.

thezepster said:

I understand mistymountains point completely, and i believe there are 2 different types of breweries. in it for the money, and in it for the taste. U might think that any brewery no matter the size is in the business to make a profit. but thats just not true. That's what advertising leads you to believe and BMC uses it to their full advantage.

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I'm very confused by this point, and it just went downhill after this part of the comment. Where in advertising are we told anything about profit or reasoning behind the brewery making its beers?

Secondly, as pointed out by Revvy, many so called enlightened beer drinkers have this utopian view of "micros" like SN, Dogfish Head, Sam Adams, etc, but in reality, its all business! Obviously their business model is different and they put out what I consider to be a more tasty product. I am also sure Sam Calagione has a more artistic view of the product than August Busch IV does, BUT, Sam Calagione is brewing to make money, not "for the taste" as the utopian view holds.

But how much fun is it to bash them??? Its really easy for homebrewers, and fun to poke fun at triple hops brewed, or frost brewed, or cold activated cans. But we should not say things like: They use cheap ingredients to save money, ect (costs more to process those adjuncts). Its what the masses want. And craft breweries are ones that say things like this too to help sell their product...I just get kind of annoyed when people ignore the things big breweries bring to the table. Like others have said, they are the reason for many ground breaking technologies in brewing. Ehh I guess I'm kind of hypocritical with all this...

I watched a show today about Southern Pacific, a california railroad company. One of the company's downfalls was how when highways were built, it changed the way goods were delivered. This led them to realize that the luxury dining cars packed with servers were what was killing their profit. So they took the luxury dining cars away and replaced them with "automat", or vending machines. This irked the people who used the railroad, and they stopped taking the trains. Then they went under, and Amtrak took over.

The point of that story is that they had a great thing, something changed, and they couldn't adapt. I think this story is the same in a lot of industries, beer included. Companies start out with consumers in mind, and work hard at making people happy, and succeed for awhile. Then something changes, and they're forced to adapt to a new way of making a profit. With beer, I think the BMC companies put out as good of a product they can and still make money. Right on the can they say they use the most expensive ingredients. This is probably true, but expensive rice and corn probably aren't as expensive as using expensive barley. So they get away with that claim, because well, it's true.

As beer drinkers, we all have different tastes. I personally don't like porters and most stouts, and can't stand sours. German Hefes are usually off my list also. Some other beer drinkers might not like IPA's. Everybody has different tastes, and BMC is right up peoples alleys. Some people don't like bitter beer. I remember a commercial with puckered up faces claiming something to the effect of "avoid bitter beer face". When people see that, they think "okay, beer isn't supposed to be bitter". People do get suckered into advertising schemes like blue pictures on cans and swirly bottles.

Another thing is that people don't want to pay craft beer prices. I paid 20 bucks yesterday for a 6 pack of Stone Ruination. I like to try different beers and I don't mind paying. Plus, I'm looking for beers that I could attempt to recreate at home. I told my neighbor, and he thought I was out of my mind. Costco sells 36 packs of BMC for 22 dollars. Some people want quantity, not quality. I used to be one of those people, until I started brewing. Now I'd rather have 6 great beers than 12 bottles of beer I don't like. So the financial aspect is another thing that fuels the BMC empire