Can homebrew be toxic?

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Eckythump

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Can any of these "baddies" I've heard so much about cause homebrew to be toxic to humans? My understanding is that they just make it taste terrible, but I'm wondering if there is a chance of toxins making it into my homebrew.

I know that improperly made moonshine can cause blindness or worse. I believe this has something to do with the distillation?
 
This is a beat to death dead horse. NOTHING, UNDER ANY CONDITIONS where a fermentation happens over 2% ABV, can harm a human in any way.

It may taste worse than anything you have ever put in your mouth but it is safe to drink.
 
I don't know the exact chemical reason why, but with hard liquor is has to do with toxic compounds in the "heads" and "tails" during the distillation process. That never happens with beer.

The only thing I could think of would be botulism (as it's not the actual bacteria that's harmful but the toxin that bacteria produces), but unless you're using a bulging can of extract, or improperly canning your own, I don't think it's an issue. And then it's no different than any other canned food- never use a bulging can of anything.
 
Fermentation is safe, distillation has the potential to be dangerous.
 
The only thing I could think of would be botulism (as it's not the actual bacteria that's harmful but the toxin that bacteria produces), but unless you're using a bulging can of extract, or improperly canning your own, I don't think it's an issue.

It can't survive in fermented beer. This is from many of the citations I have posted in the threads linked to below.

Oh, Botulism specifically... did you know that this is an anaerobic pathogen? It's toxin is one of the few that is broken down by boiling. Did you know tht it is strongly inhibited by isomerized alpha acids, even in water? Since fresh wort has a healthy amount of oxygen in it, the beastie cannot even get started, then once the O2 is used up, it doesn't have a chance against the hops or the yeast.

NOTHING PATHOGENIC CAN GROW IN BEER!!!

You can't get sick from beer PERIOD, old, new, or ancient...It doesn't matter. Nothing that can live in fermented beverages can harm you period....No food poisoning or anything.

The whole history of beer, wine, mead and cider/Fermentation is general is that nothing pathogenic can exist in them They were consumed in places where the water could kill you, or make you sick.

Even slightly fermented beverages were consumed, even by children. Hard ciders were drunk like we drink bottled water.

Why do you think the Catholic Church chose wine as the basis of their sacrament? Because wine was more important to the culture of the desert where Christianity came from than water. Water safe, drinkable water was rare. So wine was the safer, common beverage of the day.

We've covered everything even with some citations in this thread. Dangers of Homebrewing

And some more info here as well.

It covers all the bugaboos that new brewers wanna fear, mycotoxins, e-coli, zombies....
 
During the first part of the distillation process, methanol is created. Once that small amount is captured and thrown out, the rest is safe to drink.

There is no distillation in beermaking. As is already noted, beer is safe to drink.
 
The only thing I could think of would be botulism...


NOPE. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in beer can harm you. If this was not true we would all not be here because our ancestors would have died. Remember that at one time on Earth EVERYONE drank fermented beverage because water would kill you.

This may help...





 
Last edited by a moderator:
The only toxins in beer would be the ones you deliberately put in there - none are produced or supported through the brewing procedure.
 
So... just to clarify...

If I can a Real Wort Starter improperly (say I just boil it, I don't pressure-heat it to 250 for 15 minutes), and then some months later I use it to create a yeast starter which I pitch directly into unfermented wort, you guys are saying there is absolutely no risk of botulism?
 
So... just to clarify... If I can a Real Wort Starter improperly (say I just boil it, I don't pressure-heat it to 250 for 15 minutes), and then some months later I use it to create a yeast starter which I pitch directly into unfermented wort, you guys are saying there is absolutely no risk of botulism?

Date: Wed, 18 Jul 90 9:24:12 EDT
From: hplabs!holos0!lbr (Len Reed)
Subject: Re: Botulism from malt syrup

In #462 michelma at division.cs.columbia.edu (Paul Michelman)
writes of Botulism and notes that the toxin in inactivated by
boiling.

As Paul notes, Clostridium botulinum is an anarobe commonly found
in soil. This is why it is especially worrisome in home-canned
vegetables. The organism grows in the cans, giving off the deadly
toxin. Boiling will disable the toxin, but boling the cans (i.e.,
simple canning without pressure) won't kill C. botulinum. This is
because the organism forms spores that can't be killed except by
the higher temperatures of pressure canning.

But you don't need to kill the microbe. It is sufficient to prevent
it from growing (and hence making toxin). Traditionally, some
things such as tomatoes have been canned without pressure. The low
pH of canned tomatoes prevents the organism from growing in the cans.
Some authorities now recommend pressure canning even tomatoes to be sure,
especially since some new strains of tomatoes are less acidic. An
alternative is to add acid, perhaps citric acid, when canning.

Well, wort is very acidic. I simple-can wort for use in making starters.
If the pH of wort is low, shouldn't the pH of concentrated wort be
lower? (Here I betray my woeful ignorance of chemistry.) I don't know
what the pH of malt extract is, but I suspect C. Botulinum
wouldn't grow in it. Many microbes won't grow if the sugar content is
too high--this is the principle behind making jelly. I don't have
the faintest idea of how sugar concentration affects C. Botulinum, though.

There's another way to look at this. If C. botulinum could grow
in wort, it could probably grow in bottled beer. (The hops do
have some inhbiting effect on microbes.) If that were true,
home bottling of beer would be dangerous indeed. It isn't.
A great truth of home brewing is that things that grow in beer ruin
beer, but not people.

Kaiser and others weigh in on that topic here.
 
So... just to clarify...

If I can a Real Wort Starter improperly (say I just boil it, I don't pressure-heat it to 250 for 15 minutes), and then some months later I use it to create a yeast starter which I pitch directly into unfermented wort, you guys are saying there is absolutely no risk of botulism?

I wouldn't recommend doing that experiment, but it is my understanding that the botulism toxin is destroyed in the boil.

That said, if you start out with toxic water, you may or may not get toxic beer. It depends on the type of toxin. Landfill seepage isn't going to magically become harmless because you add malt, hops and yeast to it.
 
This is interesting, it's from BYO, and it traces the history of the "botulism in real wort starters" worry.

Mr Wizard http://***********/images/stories/inside/wizard.gif

Can botulism spores grow in concentrated extract with its high sugar content?
Issue November 2007
Extract storing solutions

The recent discussion in Brew Your Own of preserving starter wort and the safety of the practice has raised (in my mind) several questions on the safety of my malt extract storing practice. Shortly after beginning brewing 18 months ago, I discovered that extract could be purchased in 15-kilogram plastic jugs for half the price per pound of canned extract. Being of a frugal nature, I immediately began buying in this quantity. After opening a jug to make a batch of beer, I pour the excess in plastic tubs and top with a splash of vodka to inhibit mold growth and store in my fridge at about 40 °F (4 °C). Can botulism spores ever grow in concentrated extract with its high sugar content? I assume the jugs I buy are not pressure canned because they are plastic. Quality questions aside, how long can I safely store extract in this manner? Would freezing have any effect on its quality?

Ken Graffis
Hendersonville, Tennessee

Before answering this question about malt extract storage I want to remind our readers that there are no safety issues concerning the storage of wort that has been properly canned in a pressure canner. This whole topic began in 2006 when an article was published in the September issue of Brew Your Own describing canning wort using a boiling water bath instead of a pressure canner. Although the topic of botulism was addressed in the original article, Brew Your Own received a reader letter with stronger warnings and this was printed in the November 2006 issue. To sum all of this up, if you want to can wort and use it for yeast starters, go buy yourself a pressure canner and you will be just fine. I have written about the many uses of pressure canners in previous columns and think every serious brewer and cook should have at least one of them!

Now with that out of the way let’s discuss why brewers do not to spend any time at all worrying about the growth of Clostridium botulinum in the malt extract. Malt extract, whether liquid or dry, is concentrated by removing water. One key attribute of food products used to gauge their susceptibility to spoilage is a property known as water activity or AW. Pure water has a water activity of 1.0 and as solids content increases the AW decreases. The definition of AW is not important here, but relates to equilibrium relative humidity. If you want to read more there is a bunch of information about water activity online and in food science books.

At any rate, Clostridium botulinum is not a problem in foods with an AW less than 0.93 because it doesn’t grow. The water activity of liquid malt extract (LME) is somewhere around 0.60 depending on its concentration. Honey has an AW between 0.55 and 0.60, so it stands to reason that liquid malt extract with a similar concentration is going to be in the same range. Dried malt extract has an AW of about 0.20 making it very shelf stable from a microbiological view. You are correct that liquid malt extract is not pressure canned because there is no safety concern requiring it to be.

Molds and yeasts can grow on the surface of containers of liquid malt extract that have been opened. One would figure that if the fungi can grow on the surface they should be able to grow throughout the bulk of the LME, but they don’t. The reason for this is that the AW of foods products is not homogeneous once the package has been opened because water from the air (humidity) changes the AW at the food-air interface. This is why LME can have mold colonies form on the surface. Covering the surface with vodka is one way to keep the surface clean. Another method is to repackage your 15 kilograms of LME in convenient sized portions using zipper storage bags so that the air can be eliminated from the headspace of the bag, keeping the AW homogeneous.

So from a safety stance you can store LME indefinitely, although the quality may change. To be realistic, if you store it in a clean refrigerator that does not contain a lot of smelly food that could impart odors into the LME, the shelf life is likely to be well over a year. If you really want to toss your LME into a freezer because you have more freezer space than refrigerator space you will certainly do no harm to it and will completely eliminate the possibility of any mold growth.
 

The only other two articles on this topic, clarify that this was "Pruno"

The Utah State Prison inmates were infected by the botulinum toxin by drinking alcohol made in a plastic bag hidden in a cell. The prison moonshine is often referred to as "cell-brewed pruno."

While botulism can be deadly, with medical treatment most survive. Botulism can bring on paralysis and respiratory failure that requires weeks on a ventilator in order to recover.

The cell-brewed hootch is made using fruit, water and sugar in plastic bags often hidden in toilet tanks. This creates an "anaerobic environment" without oxygen, also a recipe for breeding botulism.

According to "Modern Drunkard Magazine" the recipe for "classic pruno" requires fruit, fruit cocktail, sugar cubes, ketchup and water.

One sip contaminated with botulism is enough to make someone sick. Blurred vision, dry mouth, and trouble swallowing are the initial symptoms. Paralysis will typically start at the shoulders and work its way down.

I'm gonna bet that the bag in the toilet was just as likely to have had botulism on it than the actual hooch, and they came into contact with it on the surface of the bag. If I decide to "keister" a bottle of homebrew and you drink out of the bottle, it's more than likely your gonna get sick from contaminants on the bottle, than the actual beer itself.

I'm just sayin.....
 
The only other two articles on this topic, clarify that this was "Pruno"

I'm gonna bet that the bag in the toilet was just as likely to have had botulism on it than the actual hooch, and they came into contact with it on the surface of the bag.

I know. Hence the ;) ;) :p
 
I know. Hence the ;) ;) :p

Yeah, but you just gotta make sure folks know that you're being facetious, you know every scared new brewer is hovering over this thread wanting to make sure they're not going to die from their first batch of beer. That's why I take this s**t serious. (see what I did there? ;))
 
This is a beat to death dead horse. NOTHING, UNDER ANY CONDITIONS where a fermentation happens over 2% ABV, can harm a human in any way.

It may taste worse than anything you have ever put in your mouth but it is safe to drink.

Not true - although quanties of brew to be hazardous are not generally found - aka bathtubs, swiming pools. After all if you can drown in water, you can drown in Beer. As to bacteria, I think others have answer this.
 
interesting link on C. Botulinum http://www.fsis.usda.gov/Factsheets/Clostridium_botulinum/index.asp

What I noticed is that ph of 4.6 prevents growth (aka high acid) this means wine musts are generally safe from an acid point of view. Wort from just the acid however wouldn't be (5.2?) However as already mentioned the higher O2 of aeration, and the addition of yeast, later lack of sugars, the yeast acidification (drops it to below 4.6 I think) would kill the bacteria.

Again, strictly speaking about the acid, not the other requirements for the bacteria - which requires the right temp, ph level, Oxygen levels, sugar levels, etc. I suspect that if that were really a problem, drinking beer for 1000's of years wouldn't have been the route to clean drinking fluids that it has been.
 
I bottled a mini-batch yesterday. It was in a small container, so I couldn't get my auto-siphon in the neck. Instead, I did the old suck siphon.

It occurred to me after the fact that I've been sick with a cold for 3 days. I presume no one will get sick from drinking that batch, but maybe I'll keep that one to myself... hah.
 
After all if you can drown in water, you can drown in Beer.


Lest we forget those 9 souls who went out with a smile on their faces in the Great Beer Flood of 1814.

Beer Flood Claims Nine Souls

On October 17, 1814, over 100 years before the Boston Molasses Flood, a very unfortunate beer-related incident occurred in London. A huge vat which held over 135,000 gallons of fermenting beer succumbed to the wounds of age, and let its bounty loose with explosive force. The impact caused several other vats in the same building to rupture, and almost instantly the combined 323,000+ gallons of ale crashed through the brick structure and poured into the London parish of St. Giles, a slum area.

The impact of this massive wave of beer was disastrous. Men and women were caught in the wave, tossed against walls and buried in debris. The beer completely destroyed two homes, and flooded many others. A wall at a nearby pub crumbled under the force, burying a barmaid there for several hours. Nine people were killed by the drink that day, all but one due to drowning. The ninth died of alcohol poisoning. Most of the victims were poor individuals who either lost their lives, or everything they owned.

Soon after the flood, survivors rushed in to save what they could of the precious ale, collecting it in pots, cans, and kettles. Some simply used their cupped hands to lap up the tepid pools of dirty beer.

It took weeks for the stink of beer to completely fade from the area. The brewery was later taken to court over the accident, but the entire event was determined to be an “Act of God” by the judge and jury, leaving no one responsible.

This is commemorated on college campuses and frat houses across the land to cries of "Chug it!" And survives in an arcane ritual that we know today as the "beer bong."

octablong1.jpg


:)
 
This is a beat to death dead horse. NOTHING, UNDER ANY CONDITIONS where a fermentation happens over 2% ABV, can harm a human in any way.

It may taste worse than anything you have ever put in your mouth but it is safe to drink.

It should be possible for botulism toxin to make it through that. You'd have to have a pretty unlikely set of circumstances to get there - oxygen-depleted wort with botulism introduced, allow it to sit for days or weeks, oxygenate it, innoculate it with yeast, and hope there's enough nutrients for the yeast to thrive. The alcohol would kill off the botulism if the oxygen didn't get it first, but the toxin it made would remain.

Like I said, unlikely. So much that you'd probably have to intentionally do it for it to have a chance. But within the realm of imagination.
 
Ho-ly crap...

It could be worse. The Great Molasses Flood of 1919

Much rather go out by beer. Which reminds me of this joke, my co-minister told in church on the Sunday after St. Patty's Day.

Old man Murphy had worked down at the brewery for years, but one day , he just wasn't paying attention and he tripped on the walkway and fell over into the beer vat and drowned.

The foreman thought it should be his job to inform the widow Murphy of her old man's death. He showed up at the front door and rang the bell. When she came to the door, he said, "I'm sorry to tell you, but poor old Murphy passed away at work today when he fell into the vat and drowned."

She wept and covered her face with her apron and after a time, between sobs, she asked, "Tell me, did he suffer?"

"I don't think so," said the foreman: "He got out three times to go to the men's room.
 
I can see the usual and traditional brewing process eliminating all risks of it. But my one reservation would be a new brewer using one of those no-boil canned kits with a damaged can, and not aerating or anything like that. Would the alpha acids if the can is prehopped be enough alone to guarantee no botulism growth? Is there enough oxygen just from mixing the extract with water to ensure no growth? How fast is the production of the toxin during growth? Could there be enough growth to produce the toxin before fermentation takes hold? Even if the bacteria/spores are destroyed by fermentation or alcohol produced by it, is the harmful toxin destroyed as well? The fact that the spores can be present in honey (hence why you're never supposed to give honey to an infant as they can grow in the intestines and lead to infant botulism poisoning), leads me to believe they could be present in poorly canned extract/wort or a damaged can.

As far as I know, canned extract is a relatively recent creation, and the argument about brewers from 1000 years ago really doesn't apply.

I'm just hesitant about making any blanket "absolutely no risk under any circumstances what-so-ever" kind of statement.
 
I can see the usual and traditional brewing process eliminating all risks of it. But my one reservation would be a new brewer using one of those no-boil canned kits with a damaged can, and not aerating or anything like that. Would the alpha acids if the can is prehopped be enough alone to guarantee no botulism growth? Is there enough oxygen just from mixing the extract with water to ensure no growth? How fast is the production of the toxin during growth? Could there be enough growth to produce the toxin before fermentation takes hold? Even if the bacteria/spores are destroyed by fermentation or alcohol produced by it, is the harmful toxin destroyed as well? The fact that the spores can be present in honey (hence why you're never supposed to give honey to an infant as they can grow in the intestines and lead to infant botulism poisoning), leads me to believe they could be present in poorly canned extract/wort or a damaged can.

As far as I know, canned extract is a relatively recent creation, and the argument about brewers from 1000 years ago really doesn't apply.

I'm just hesitant about making any blanket "absolutely no risk under any circumstances what-so-ever" kind of statement.

Highly unlikely. Wort has a AW of .6. Boutulism needs an AW of .93. AW a fancy way of describing how 'liquid' the liquid is. water is a 1.0 Syrups are too 'dry' for bacteria to grow in.

Look at honey, we store it in cupboards for years without a problem, same basic AW. And it has been around for 1000's of years (mead). that said, surfaces where water (humidity) can gather can be breading grounds.
 
I can see the usual and traditional brewing process eliminating all risks of it. But my one reservation would be a new brewer using one of those no-boil canned kits with a damaged can, and not aerating or anything like that. Would the alpha acids if the can is prehopped be enough alone to guarantee no botulism growth? Is there enough oxygen just from mixing the extract with water to ensure no growth? How fast is the production of the toxin during growth? Could there be enough growth to produce the toxin before fermentation takes hold? Even if the bacteria/spores are destroyed by fermentation or alcohol produced by it, is the harmful toxin destroyed as well? The fact that the spores can be present in honey (hence why you're never supposed to give honey to an infant as they can grow in the intestines and lead to infant botulism poisoning), leads me to believe they could be present in poorly canned extract/wort or a damaged can.

As far as I know, canned extract is a relatively recent creation, and the argument about brewers from 1000 years ago really doesn't apply.

I'm just hesitant about making any blanket "absolutely no risk under any circumstances what-so-ever" kind of statement.

You can be hesitant if you want to, but as I quoted above, Mr Wizard of BYO magazine explained it pretty well.

Now with that out of the way let’s discuss why brewers do not to spend any time at all worrying about the growth of Clostridium botulinum in the malt extract. Malt extract, whether liquid or dry, is concentrated by removing water. One key attribute of food products used to gauge their susceptibility to spoilage is a property known as water activity or AW. Pure water has a water activity of 1.0 and as solids content increases the AW decreases. The definition of AW is not important here, but relates to equilibrium relative humidity. If you want to read more there is a bunch of information about water activity online and in food science books.

At any rate, Clostridium botulinum is not a problem in foods with an AW less than 0.93 because it doesn’t grow. The water activity of liquid malt extract (LME) is somewhere around 0.60 depending on its concentration. Honey has an AW between 0.55 and 0.60, so it stands to reason that liquid malt extract with a similar concentration is going to be in the same range. Dried malt extract has an AW of about 0.20 making it very shelf stable from a microbiological view. You are correct that liquid malt extract is not pressure canned because there is no safety concern requiring it to be.

Not to mentioned as also previously covered the fermentation aspect/creation of alcohol would be the final nail in the coffin of fear.

I'll say it again, Nothing Pathogenic to humans can survive in beer.
 
Not to mentioned as also previously covered the fermentation aspect/creation of alcohol would be the final nail in the coffin of fear.

I'll say it again, Nothing Pathogenic to humans can survive in beer.

What no one has answered is whether or not the toxin will survive in beer. The spores/bacterium will not survive, I get that. But those aren't the harmful part. The toxin is not a living organism that alcohol can kill. Will the fermentation process destroy the toxin? Boiling will destroy the toxin, but if something is never boiled (pre-hopped no-boil extract or self-canned wort), you're confident enough to 100% guarantee that there is ZERO chance that at some point, there was enough appropriate conditions for spores to create the toxin? Most beers are boiled, zero problem. But I don't think you can make that guarantee if it's not boiled. Insignificant odds of having enough of the toxin to have an affect, or even having it at all? Fine. But impossible? I'm not convinced.
 
What no one has answered is whether or not the toxin will survive in beer. The spores/bacterium will not survive, I get that. But those aren't the harmful part. The toxin is not a living organism that alcohol can kill. Will the fermentation process destroy the toxin? Boiling will destroy the toxin, but if something is never boiled (pre-hopped no-boil extract or self-canned wort), you're confident enough to 100% guarantee that there is ZERO chance that at some point, there was enough appropriate conditions for spores to create the toxin? Most beers are boiled, zero problem. But I don't think you can make that guarantee if it's not boiled. Insignificant odds of having enough of the toxin to have an affect, or even having it at all? Fine. But impossible? I'm not convinced.

Let me see if I have this right.
Hypothetically there is a can of LME that is 'bulging'... yeah maybe there is some botulism living ON it if and only if there is a whole in the can.
If the Botulism was in the Wort that was BOILED down to LME, from what is here, the boiling destroys the toxin. No problem. Has to be an introduction of the The Bacteria can't grow in the LME (sure surface if the can isn't sealled correctly - maybe a severly damaged can - and there is condensation bringing the water around)

So our poor sap who got this can that no quality control will ship because it looks bad goes and makes a no boil kit with it.... Hmm.. Maybe this is possible, but the plausablity is so remote because the can itself would have to be damaged or left openned.... and a source of contaminant come about... yeah not seeing this happen.
 
OK. I've had more time to go over the answers to my question, and except for one newsgroup article from 1990, every linked and quoted article has to do with extract.

The newsgroup article says that wort is too acidic for Botulinum to propagate in. However, in other places I have read that wort is an order of magnitude less acidic than beer. The article isn't terribly convincing about this, nor does it cite a reputable source.

Yes, high concentrations of sugar that are present in LME will not allow C.B. to propagate and produce the toxin. However, I am not asking about extract, I am asking about Real Wort Starters. That is, mashed and lautered wort which is put in mason jars for storage.

A. If wort is made from mashed grain (NOT from extract), is boiled (NOT pressurized), and placed in sterile mason jars and sealed immediately (WITHOUT pitching yeast), will the toxin develop over time?
B. If the toxin does develop over time, and the canned wort is used to create a yeast starter (WITHOUT boiling), will the toxin propagate to the finished beer?
 
Let me see if I have this right.
Hypothetically there is a can of LME that is 'bulging'... yeah maybe there is some botulism living ON it if and only if there is a whole in the can.
If the Botulism was in the Wort that was BOILED down to LME, from what is here, the boiling destroys the toxin. No problem. Has to be an introduction of the The Bacteria can't grow in the LME (sure surface if the can isn't sealled correctly - maybe a severly damaged can - and there is condensation bringing the water around)

So our poor sap who got this can that no quality control will ship because it looks bad goes and makes a no boil kit with it.... Hmm.. Maybe this is possible, but the plausablity is so remote because the can itself would have to be damaged or left openned.... and a source of contaminant come about... yeah not seeing this happen.

There was a post on here not long ago about a bulging can. Even if you aren't 100% that it's botulism, it's not worth the risk as far as I'm concerned. This was the initial point that I was trying to make in my first post...as long as you don't use a bulging or otherwise physically damaged can, it's completely safe. And the same rules for canning your own wort- pressure cook it to make sure you're killing spores, and if you see any bulging later on, discard. My point was that even if the risk of botulism is extremely remote, its is POSSIBLE to carry over the toxin if you do something really stupid, but it's just following basic food safety for anything that's canned to prevent it. Considering that botulism is potentially lethal in very small doses, I think that's completely reasonable.
 
OK. I've had more time to go over the answers to my question, and every linked and quoted article has to do with extract. That doesn't answer my question.

Yes, high concentrations of sugar that are present in LME will not allow C.B. to propagate and produce the toxin. However, I am not asking about extract, I am asking about Real Wort Starters. That is, mashed and lautered wort which is put in mason jars for storage.

A. If wort is made from mashed grain (NOT from extract), is boiled (NOT pressurized), and placed in sterile mason jars and sealed immediately (WITHOUT pitching yeast), will the toxin develop over time?
B. If the toxin does develop over time, and the canned wort is used to create a yeast starter (WITHOUT boiling), will the toxin propagate to the finished beer?

Folks on here seem to disagree with me, but I'd say it's possible but not inevitable for it to develop and carry over, and to pressure can it to be safe.
 
There was a post on here not long ago about a bulging can. Even if you aren't 100% that it's botulism, it's not worth the risk as far as I'm concerned. This was the initial point that I was trying to make in my first post...as long as you don't use a bulging or otherwise physically damaged can, it's completely safe. And the same rules for canning your own wort- pressure cook it to make sure you're killing spores, and if you see any bulging later on, discard. My point was that even if the risk of botulism is extremely remote, its is POSSIBLE to carry over the toxin if you do something really stupid, but it's just following basic food safety for anything that's canned to prevent it. Considering that botulism is potentially lethal in very small doses, I think that's completely reasonable.

From the FDA Fact sheet
What is the Best Way to Prevent Botulism?
The control of foodborne botulism is based almost entirely on thermal destruction (heating) of the spores or inhibiting spore germination into bacteria and allowing cells to grow and produce toxins in foods. To prevent foodborne botulism:
Use approved heat processes for commercially and home-canned foods (i.e., pressure-can low-acid foods such as corn or green beans, meat, or poultry).

Boil home-processed, low-acid canned foods for 10 minutes prior to serving. For higher altitudes, add 1 minute for each 1,000 feet of elevation.

One of the most common causes of foodborne botulism is improperly home-canned food, especially low-acid foods such as vegetables and meats. Only a pressure cooker/canner allows water to reach 240 to 250 °F, a temperature that can kill the spores.

- there were others, but basically if it is suspect - toss it.

So based on what we've said, wort is probably not low enough ph for that to prevent Botulism. I'm not sure about it's AW content (ie how much water v solids). But the recomendation of boiling 10 minutes before serving might be it. If you were to boil the canned wort for 10 minutes and cool, that should take care of it according to this page. Of course if the canning proceedure was correct, the intial wort generation should have eleminated the C.B. (or most of it) and the canning - even without a preasure cooker - should leave a can that has the top pulled down and if at use, it has 'popped up' then toss it, or boil it.

Or use a preasure cooker.
 
Hey guys. Long time lurker, first time poster. :mug:

A quick shout out to everybody here, HBT has been an invaluable resource for me as a n00b home brewer (7 brews under my belt). Thanks! :rockin:

I am asking about Real Wort Starters. That is, mashed and lautered wort which is put in mason jars for storage.

A. If wort is made from mashed grain (NOT from extract), is boiled (NOT pressurized), and placed in sterile mason jars and sealed immediately (WITHOUT pitching yeast), will the toxin develop over time?
B. If the toxin does develop over time, and the canned wort is used to create a yeast starter (WITHOUT boiling), will the toxin propagate to the finished beer?

This is actually a question I have as well. Although more in the context of harvesting wild yeast ala https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f127/howto-capture-wild-yeast-101886/. I recently mixed up some wort and left it out around our campsite overnight last Saturday. It's just been sitting out in the living room since then letting whatever got in there grow (I think I got yeast! Maybe.....?). So, I was planning on pitching that wort (assuming I have yeast) into a larger starter batch and see if I get any fermentation and then step it up from there. My hope is to wash the wild yeast off the cake and maybe use it for some interesting wild yeast brews.

So it seems to me like a safe bet I got all sorts of nastiness in my wort along with my yeast. Assuming I got some of this botulism bacteria in my wort while it sat around outdoors, how would I know that the beers I make with this yeast are going to be safe to consume?

From what I've read on the topic here it sounds like its not a problem in beer because of the low PH, alcohol, and boiling of the wort. However, with my wild yeast starter there could potentially be some toxins from the bacteria in there. The next batch of wort gets boiled and cooled and then I'd pitch this potentially infected starter into it at room temperature. Even if the bacteria don't reproduce once they are in the beer I could still have contamination in the yeast I've harvested right?

I feel like I'm being a bit overly concerned after reading through all of the threads here but botulism isn't really something you want to screw around with. :eek:
 
My understanding is that because botulism is anaerobic and will not grow in the presence of oxygen, it wouldn't be an issue. If it was, the toxin would be everywhere and a very widespread problem (as the spores are present all over the place, including in soil). It will only propagate in a suitable oxygen-free environment. Whatever wild bugs you picked up might make the beer taste nasty, but they won't hurt you.
 
I can assure you that this is not true!
I've gotten sick after drinking beer many, many times!

Trolling Revvy -100 Internets.

Undermining YEARS of oppression and misinformation that we have been fighting to correct. -1,000,000 Internets.

Since this tread has come back up, I feel like jumping BACK into the "real discussion" revolving the RWS (Real Wort Starters).

The ONLY way scientists were able to get botulism to grow in beer wort was to inoculate a wort, via injection, that was not boiled OR fermented. I believe in the natural world there is NO way ANYTHING that has a fermentation resulting in an ABV of 2.5% or more, can get into a finished beer that can be harmful to human beings.

In the fore mentioned scenario of the "botulisim toxin" making it through... This would be impossible because this same toxin would kill the yeast cells and prevent the fermentation. If there is no fermentation it is NOT a fermented beverage and NOT safe to drink.

At one time on Earth everyone drank a fermented beverage (call it beer if you like). If there was a way that human beings could have become ill from the brewing process, we would not be here having this chat today.

So historically speaking and scientifically speaking it is impossible for ANYTHING TO NATURALLY OCCUR IN A FERMENTED BEVERAGE THAT CAN BE HARMFUL TO HUMAN BEINGS.
 
So historically speaking and scientifically speaking it is impossible for ANYTHING TO NATURALLY OCCUR IN A FERMENTED BEVERAGE THAT CAN BE HARMFUL TO HUMAN BEINGS.

I see your point, and the whole point of this thread, but so many people miss the forest amongst the trees.....

Is gluten not harmful to celiacs? It naturally occurs in beer. Is ethanol not technically a poison? It naturally occurs in beer.

We can debate the specifics all day, but I think the point is that nothing pathogenic will GROW in beer that has been fermented above a certain % alcohol.
 

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