Is a 100 billion cell count lager yeast smack pack big enough to not us a starter?

Is a 100 billion cell count lager yeast smack pack big enough to not us a starter?

I have a WyEast 2206 Bavarian Lager Yeast smack pack. It says it has 100 billion cells.

Should I make a starter?
Do I pitch @ 55 degrees? (the package says to pitch @ 70-75 until fermentation starts and then cool to 55???)

www.mrmalty.com - you need more yeast. Probably about 4 or 5 times what you have.

We don't know what your OG is, and I'm assuming you are pitching into 5 gallons of wort.

I'd pitch at the ferment temp. Some people pitch colder & then allow things to warm up. IF you're not going to bother making a starter, pitching hot will help you get the yeast going quicker, but it will also lead to some off-flavors.

Good luck with it.

And if you don't believe mrmalty or XXguy, see http://maltosefalcons.com/tech/yeast-propagation-and-maintenance-principles-and-practices. She says you are under pitching 100 fold (but that was before Yeast increased the size).

-a.

According to WyEast, the smack pack is enough to acheive 6 million cells per mL if you are pitching warm and then cooling to fermentation temp. However, if you pitching at fermentation temp, 2 smack packs will be enought to acheive 12 million cell per mL.

The lager that I am doing will be around 1.050 and I plan to pitch @ fermentation temp. So, they say to pitch 1L of slurry to 1 hL(hectoliter).

hL = 26.42 gallons

So, 250 mL (2 smack packs) of slurry is sufficient to target 12 million cells per mL. Or, in simpler terms, each smack pack contains 100 billion cells. So, if you pitch twice that, 200,000,000,000 cells and there are 18927 mL in 5 gallons....

200,000,000,000 / 18927 = 10566914.989168912136101865060496 cells per mL

They also state on there site that by pitching to large, you can cause problems as well.

Here is the pitch rate chart from their site. (bbl = hL) There is a lot of good information on there site actually. They even tell you how to harvest your yeast to save $.

make a starter. 2 liters. lagers need a lot of yeast

"pitching too large" would be pitching like 50 smack packs.

Talking to a local micro, their pithing rate is 1 gallon of slurry per bbl they brew.

if you do just pitch the smack pack, please keep us informed, as I'd be interested to see how it turns out

ajf said:

And if you don't believe mrmalty or XXguy, see http://maltosefalcons.com/tech/yeast-propagation-and-maintenance-principles-and-practices. She says you are under pitching 100 fold (but that was before Yeast increased the size).

-a.

Click to expand...

This is straight from your link. I think the WyEast 50mL packets they are talking about are the WyEast propagator packs where they state that a 3 step starter should be made for a typical 1.050 lager pitched warm.

What does this mean in plain English. A 5 gallon fermentation contains approximately 20,000 ml. This means that for 1.050 gravity ale you would need to add between 120 billion (20,000 ml x 6 million cells/ml) and 200 billion cells (20,000 ml x 10 million cells/ml).

Click to expand...

motobrewer said:

make a starter. 2 liters. lagers need a lot of yeast

"pitching too large" would be pitching like 50 smack packs.

Talking to a local micro, their pithing rate is 1 gallon of slurry per bbl they brew.

if you do just pitch the smack pack, please keep us informed, as I'd be interested to see how it turns out

Click to expand...

I plan on pitching 2 smack packs or 200 billion cells as recommended by WyEast.

I have pitched 1 smack pack on an ale with excellent results.

1: What are you making, whats the OG?
2: Make a starter with ALL liquid yeasts. What is the date on the packet?

1: What are you making, whats the OG?
Amber lager
7 lbs 2-Row
.5 lb Crystal 60
.5 Mt Hood 60, .5 20, .5 10
2206 Bavarian Lager Yeast
? 1.050 fly sparged

2: Make a starter with ALL liquid yeasts. What is the date on the packet?
2 wyeast 2206 activator (smack pack) 100 billion cells, 125 mL
MFG 11JAN10, MFG 24DEC09

You need a gallon starter MINIMUM for that beer

Dont pitch that yeast anywhere close to 60 let alone 70
50 is best

Remember this
Wyeast is in the business of selling yeast
We're all just here to help

100 billion cells is enough for 2 gallons of 1.040 lager wort. That way I can make a case of beer and have enough yeast for 10 gallons of 1.051 wort. I've also found I can get great results pitching less than Mr. Malty suggests. It looks to me that it just assumes you have a 2000ml flask and should buy at least two packs of yeast for just about everything.

And also, that is 100 billion cells at packaging time. By the time it gets to the shop and then you come in and pick it up, that number had been reduced. Both Wyeast and White labs have the 100 billion count, but it is before shipping.

Leaving the pure science and math behind (it's OK... I am an engineer )...

I made many good beers with single smack-packs and single packs of dry yeast. However, sometimes I had them get stuck at 1.020, regardless of OG. I have also had liquid yeast take 3 days to kick (more Wyeast issues than WL).

Since I started planning ahead and making starters, I have not had one beer get stuck at 1.020, and always have them kick in under 8 hours.

IMO, my beers went from good with a few issues, to very good with no issues by making starters and having a controlled fermentation chamber for keeping the right temps.

r2eng said:

Since I started planning ahead and making starters, I have not had one beer get stuck at 1.020, and always have them kick in under 8 hours.

Click to expand...

+1 to making a starter. I've had the exact same experience.

It's almost better to brew a 2 gallon batch as a starter. At least you can drink it. What I do to maximize all that starter time and cost is to brew at least 3 batches within a couple months so I can keep the slurry going.

People that have had relative success just pitching a smack pack probably pitched it into warm wort. The problem is that while the lager yeast will get going faster and propagate more in warm wort, it also craps out esters and kinda ruins the beer.

My $0.02...

I don't use liquid yeast that often (most things fermented with dry S-05 these days), but when I do use liquid, I will often not make a starter at all. I'm talking about the bigger Wyeast Activator packs and not the smaller Propagator packs.

I used to make starters with liquid all the time, but now I only do it if I am making a lager or something that wants to ferment cooler (like a Scottish Ale).

My results with and without starters have been the same.

As for Mr. Malty.... I don't mean to disrespect that site... I've never actually used it or looked at it or anything. but, I have seen a number of quotes from people showing the pitching rates that Mr. Malty calculates for them. I must say that over the course of my 13 year long brewing 'career, 'I have NEVER pitched yeast in the amounts that Mr. Malty calls for.

I'm sure there is solid science behind it, but my personal experience is that my beers, without starters, come out just dandy. I already spend enough time in the brewery, so I'm opting out of the extra time to make starters.

Brew-on! :rockin:

edit: my beers are generally in the mid 1.050's, and I pitch ever-so-slightly warm... about 72*F.

impatient said:

...

200,000,000,000 / 18927 = 10566914.989168912136101865060496 cells per mL

...

Click to expand...

I'm not sure that level of accuracy is required... I also like the thought of 0.989 cells (he's the runt of his litter).

This is one of those arguments where convincing people to change is pretty tough. I've brewed great beers making starters, and I've brewed great beers without making starters.

Here is my current approach:
Low OG Ales: Liquid yeast / no starter
High OG Ales: Liquid Yeast with starter
Dark Ales when I'm being cheap: Dry Yeast
Hefeweizens: Liquid Yeast with or without a starter depending on my mood and prep time (you can get some interesting flavors by underpitching yeast above fermentation temperatures)
Lagers: Liquid Yeast with starter

Umm, I dont know where these pitch rates are coming from....

but from what I have read, a 5 gallon 1.050 batch needs about 350BILLION cells, not 110BILLION

We are talking a Lager here, not an Ale. An ale would require about 170BILLION

Get (4) packs it looks like....

I always pitch cold too, I pitch at 350BILLION cells, 100 BILLION is wayyyy low

100 billion cells would be enough for a 1.5 gallon batch. I am guessing yours is larger than that though