perfect sanitation yields THREE batches of infected cider

Excuse the emotion in this thread. I'm so pi$$ed off I can't even express it. I'm a fairly experienced brewer and have always been OCD about sanitation. (NEVER have infected beer, BTW) I've recently made some cider. While I have juiced my own apples and made it that way, I had no infection at all, despite the obviously inevitable exposure using that method (used D47).

The problem I've had now with 15 gallons (three 5-gallon batches) is fermenting store bought cider. Twice with Wyeast's cider yeast it infected and I decided perhaps it was taking too long to get active based on airlock activity (or lack thereof). So I did a starter with a batch last Friday night (now Tue). I used nutrients, rehydrated 1118, and a half gallon of juice. About 18 hours later, no infection, bubbling away. So I added another half gallon of juice to keep enough sugar in there while I left town for the night. Sunday night, it looked good. So I dumped in the rest. Until this morning when I got up, not a hint of that sour infected smell I've become so familiar with. Now it's there.

Ok, now tell me, WTF have I done wrong?!?!?!??

Are you sure it is infection and not get the overpowering tartness and alcohol left by the fermentation process??? The only reason I say this is you are comparing home made juice with store bought juice and the store bought stuff is not going to mask the young taste as well a fresh juice. Also store bought juice could have more acid that is masked when there is still sugar, but take away that sugar it comes out loud and clear. Once the fermentation process has started it is fairly hard to get an infection in your brew. If this has happened 3 times and you are as OCD about sanitation as you claim I am inclined to think it is your perception of the cider not an actual infection.

Does the store bought stuff have ascorbic acid in it? (Or "added Vitamin C")

Not sure I get it. Cider fermented dry will taste like **** unless you age it at least 3-6 months. I never touch my ciders until they are 8 months old; but you can push a 4-6month only cider into a decent draft cider if needed.

Sounds like you are commenting on young cider, not infection. If you taste vinegar, then you have problems. If it is simply sour or tart, then that is not a concern as it is young cider.

Daze said:

I am inclined to think it is your perception of the cider not an actual infection.

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That's an interesting notion. Feel free to inquire further if this doesn't clarify as I have much more anecdotal evidence to provide. Here's the thing: My first cider I made, I deemed a success. It was good. I drank it young (maybe a month old) and had used wyeast's cider strain. However, upon the guys at my brewshop tasting it, they said, "yeah, this is good, I can taste that _______ in it, gives it a sour flavor." I can't remember what bacteria he said it was, but he instantly identified it, and another confirmed it. It honestly went well with the cider, as sour is not necessarily undesirable with apples. However, it was AN UNINTENTIONAL infection. So I set out to do it again.

[Important note: I had subsequently prepared cider using the same brand of cider and yeast strain with both my father and a friend, each on their own equipment. If this raises questions of my sanitation, again, I've still never infected beer and have used the same carboy I used for cider to ferment beer and you guessed it...no infection.]

Each subsequent time the smell was stronger and the last infected batch started to smell like vinegar when I dumped it. I'm used to funky fermentation smells and totally ok with not-so-tasty flavors during the process. A testament to that is the several dozen gallons of mead I have bottled, nearly none of which was drinkable upon bottling.

If I had to describe the smell, I would say extremely sulphorous.

Regarding yeast taking hold, yes, the first infected batch (first one that I dumped, not the one I drank) definitely took too long to get active.

What's the deal with Campden? Should I use them? I've heard they don't take care of bacteria. You think my problem is bacterial?

Pickled_Pepper said:

Does the store bought stuff have ascorbic acid in it? (Or "added Vitamin C")

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Yes, it does. Other than raising acidity, I didn't think that would be a problem. Correct?

CidahMastah said:

Not sure I get it. Cider fermented dry will taste like **** unless you age it at least 3-6 months. I never touch my ciders until they are 8 months old; but you can push a 4-6month only cider into a decent draft cider if needed.

Sounds like you are commenting on young cider, not infection. If you taste vinegar, then you have problems. If it is simply sour or tart, then that is not a concern as it is young cider.

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How sour are we talking? And since acidity is sour, how much like vinegar or sulfur can it smell?

I'm comparing it to two other cases that used the same yeast (see my other reply for details) and both fermented clear. Crystal clear. We were drinking the stuff withing a month. And it was good. Dry, but good.

Mine, on the other hand, was cloudy and stinky.

Cider fermentation smell so bad, I'm not sure how you would even try to pick out a sour infected smell. Same goes for the cloudy.

Let it age out for 6+ months and I'll bet it tastes fine. If not, add a bit of Sprite to sweeten it up (if that's what you are in to).

It sounds like you just got lucky before having something that was potable after a month. In my experience cider stays cloudy for 1-2 months, and tastes like lighter fluid for 6 months. After that the apple flavor comes back, and you've really got something good after a year.

I would give it time, yeah. I had some horrible smells come out of my cider during fermentation as well. First time I tried I nearly considered it ruined, only to realize later that it was the rubber smell of the rubber stopper I use.

chalino said:

Yes, it does. Other than raising acidity, I didn't think that would be a problem. Correct?

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I've heard of people saying ascorbic acid provides a noticeable sour character in young ciders. I've never used a juice with it so I can't say for sure.

chalino said:

However, upon the guys at my brewshop tasting it, they said, "yeah, this is good, I can taste that _______ in it, gives it a sour flavor." I can't remember what bacteria he said it was, but he instantly identified it, and another confirmed it.

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I'm sure the guys at your brew shop are great, but I think that taking their opinion of your cider as scientific proof of infection is probably a little naive on your part....especially when you cant remember what word filled in that blank.

Oh, it makes me feel so much better reading this thread. I am on my second batch of cider now, 10 days fermenting so far. My first was only a 3 gal batch with ec-1118 and minimal sugar added. This batch has much more sugar, inverted this time, different yeast with yeast nutrient and it's a 6 gal batch. Smell is similar to the first batch but soooooo much more of it. My pregnant wife was threatening to dump it because of the smell filling the basement. I'm glad I waited it out.

chalino said:

How sour are we talking? And since acidity is sour, how much like vinegar or sulfur can it smell?

I'm comparing it to two other cases that used the same yeast (see my other reply for details) and both fermented clear. Crystal clear. We were drinking the stuff withing a month. And it was good. Dry, but good.


Mine, on the other hand, was cloudy and stinky.

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You have to keep in mind cider is not beer. Cider is a fruit wine and will take on all wine like characteristics (vinous flavor, longer aging period, etc.). This is even more so the case when you add more fermentables (table sugar, etc.)

Sour like not fun to drink, sour enough where you would through it out unless you were wise enough to know it is just young. Sour = Normal; vinegar = infection.

Sulfur is very common in cider fermentations, especially if you are too hot or too cold. 99% of the time it will vent out through the airlock with no palatable trace of it when properly aged. Vinegar, should not be present. If it is you have an acetobacter infection and it will only get worse. Drink it quick or dump it.

Not to diss your LHBS either. But it has been my experience that 99% of folks there know nothing about cider making. Sad part is they all talk like they do so they give out a ton of bad information.

Likely your first batch hadn't fermented dry and you had residual sugar - this is why it tasted good. I actually make cider like this all the time. I will pull out a frozen fresh cider from my pressing in the fall and let it sit in the refridge until I see the bottle expand. Then I know it has started fermenting. I let it go and try it here and there until it tastes carbonated. The alc is low, but it tastes really good, if it ferments dry before I drink it it gets that young sour taste. This is the ONLY way to get drinkable young cider (cold crashing or drinking before fully fermented).



All kinds of variables could play into each time. Fermentation temp, sugar, yeast viability, etc. Ultimately I think your solution on this one is let it sit for 3-6 months.

strat_thru_marshall said:

I'm sure the guys at your brew shop are great, but I think that taking their opinion of your cider as scientific proof of infection is probably a little naive on your part....especially when you cant remember what word filled in that blank.

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Well I definitely didn't consider it scientific. The guy who mentioned it makes sour beers a lot and had just done a hand made cider as well that I had tasted. (And is certified by BJCP). I'm not sainting these guys, but they pretty often know more than I do.

I was also comparing the fact that mine had that character to my father's and friend's, neither of whose did. Both of theirs, with the same cider and yeast (mind you, I basically did the process on their as well) fermented to crystal clarity within a month. So I was a little bothered mine didn't. Shouldn't I be able to expect more consistency than that between batches?

I think you are introducing too much anecdotal information. I don't care if someone is certified BJCP or not (if they were knowledgeable about cider they would have immediately told you it was too young). I find it highly unlikely, if you are good with sanitation as you claimed to be, that you would have infected batch after batch after batch.

Start with:
1. is it sour or vinegar I am tasting? If sour then age 3- 6 months and see if it improves.

If you want to detail out your whole process then please do so and I am sure people on here will critique it.

Rarely, if ever will 1 month old cider taste good, or come close in comparison to cider that has been aged 6-12months. Caveat being if you cold crash with lower ABV you can reduce needed aging time.YMMV

Ok. I'm going to give it another go then and see what happens. How soon do I need to rack it after activity stops during primary? Can I let it sit a while on the lees?

chalino said:

Ok. I'm going to give it another go then and see what happens. How soon do I need to rack it after activity stops during primary? Can I let it sit a while on the lees?

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my general routine is to let it rip for about 3-6 weeks, then when the bulk of the lees has fallen I rack. Then I usually rack again on campden when it falls clear and then bulk age until bottling time. I usually add campden every other racking. However adding campden on the first racking wouldn't be a bad thing especially if you plan on letting it sit for several months.

I try to only rack 2-3 times at very most before bottling, etc.

Awesome, I'll give it a try. Thanks to all, for the advice.

chalino said:

Awesome, I'll give it a try. Thanks to all, for the advice.

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No sweat man - these forums are great for learning a lot fast (take full advantage ).

chalino said:

Ok. I'm going to give it another go then and see what happens. How soon do I need to rack it after activity stops during primary? Can I let it sit a while on the lees?

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You can let it sit for a while.

Cider needs time. The general rule I picked up was, "Don't touch it until you can read a newspaper through the carboy". If you can help it, don't even look at it everyday. Just check it out once a week or so.

CidahMastah said:

You have to keep in mind cider is not beer. Cider is a fruit wine and will take on all wine like characteristics (vinous flavor, longer aging period, etc.). This is even more so the case when you add more fermentables (table sugar, etc.)

Sour like not fun to drink, sour enough where you would through it out unless you were wise enough to know it is just young. Sour = Normal; vinegar = infection.

Sulfur is very common in cider fermentations, especially if you are too hot or too cold. 99% of the time it will vent out through the airlock with no palatable trace of it when properly aged. Vinegar, should not be present. If it is you have an acetobacter infection and it will only get worse. Drink it quick or dump it.

Not to diss your LHBS either. But it has been my experience that 99% of folks there know nothing about cider making. Sad part is they all talk like they do so they give out a ton of bad information.

Likely your first batch hadn't fermented dry and you had residual sugar - this is why it tasted good. I actually make cider like this all the time. I will pull out a frozen fresh cider from my pressing in the fall and let it sit in the refridge until I see the bottle expand. Then I know it has started fermenting. I let it go and try it here and there until it tastes carbonated. The alc is low, but it tastes really good, if it ferments dry before I drink it it gets that young sour taste. This is the ONLY way to get drinkable young cider (cold crashing or drinking before fully fermented).

All kinds of variables could play into each time. Fermentation temp, sugar, yeast viability, etc. Ultimately I think your solution on this one is let it sit for 3-6 months.

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I wouldn't say it is the only way to make good young cider. I make cider that is very drinkable in a month by letting it go dry and kegging on top of sulfite and sorbate and then back sweetening with concentrated juice.

As everyone else said, the sulfur smell is normal, it can smell like rhino fart and still come out great. That smell fades.

Alchemy said:

I wouldn't say it is the only way to make good young cider.

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Agreed, let me clarify my statement.

:Correction: IMO the only way to make a good "dry" cider. That was teh type of cider the poster was making/talking about.

CidahMastah said:

Agreed, let me clarify my statement.

:Correction: IMO the only way to make a good "dry" cider. That was teh type of cider the poster was making/talking about.

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I obviously understand the difference between a sweet and dry cider, but can you characterize what would make a sweet one definitively different from a dry one based on process? Or is the term loosely used to refer to one that one way or another had sweetness added after being stabilized?

chalino said:

I obviously understand the difference between a sweet and dry cider, but can you characterize what would make a sweet one definitively different from a dry one based on process? Or is the term loosely used to refer to one that one way or another had sweetness added after being stabilized?

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Yeah I am kind of confused here as well...how would you make a dry cider by cold crashing or drinking while fermenting? By definition that would make it sweet as it would have residual sugar.

Anyway, we are a bit off topic here. Cider can make the nastiest fermentations and still come out amazing. My first batch of cider smelled and tasted terrible and I came very close to dumping it. So glad I didn't as I had juiced 125 lbs of apples on a tiny juicer for it and after letting it go to dry and back sweetening with maple syrup and juice it was amazing.


Have some patience with cider, expect gross smells and taste and just give it time.

Alchemy said:

Yeah I am kind of confused here as well...how would you make a dry cider by cold crashing or drinking while fermenting? By definition that would make it sweet as it would have residual sugar.

Anyway, we are a bit off topic here. Cider can make the nastiest fermentations and still come out amazing. My first batch of cider smelled and tasted terrible and I came very close to dumping it. So glad I didn't as I had juiced 125 lbs of apples on a tiny juicer for it and after letting it go to dry and back sweetening with maple syrup and juice it was amazing.


Have some patience with cider, expect gross smells and taste and just give it time.

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unless I misread, he was fermenting for about a month, then drinking. i.e. he never backsweetened, i.e. it was a dry cider since all the fermentables would be gone after a month.

I was suggesting that a cold crashed cider might provide a decent cider in less time vs. a dry cider.

so as you stated, if you backsweeten you can reduce aging time somewhat. it is like adding coke to whisky. Something sweet to mask something harsh. But in ciders case, on its own very few peopl seek out and enjoy 1 mo old dry cider.

chalino said:

but can you characterize what would make a sweet one definitively different from a dry one based on process?

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Yes. A dry cider is one with no sugars in it, fermented dry. If you backsweeten that is a backsweetened sweet cider. Cold crashing is yet another approach. In this case your process is what defines what you have turned out. If you cahnge your process to adding apople juice concentrate after that month, now you have a backsweetened cider.

You definitely get weird smells and sour tastes. So far I've done Edwort's (and bottle conditioning the crap out of it), store bought Whitehouse "cider" with Cote de Blancs that I cold crashed and just moved to secondary the other day, and a small batch of 365 brand apple juice with over pitched Nottingham attempting to lager it simply because they can. They all smell "off", it's the nature of the beast. As far as sulfur odor goes, I've found that adding yeast nutrient pretty much eliminates that.

Personally, I don't find store bought juice to turn into ANYTHING remotely good at all. Apple juice does not have a wide range of flavor to begin with, so it was stupid of me to not even think about what the finished product might taste like. I'm someone that can get caught up in 100 people saying, "Man, that tastes good" instead of asking, "Hey, what exactly does this taste like" and then waiting for descriptors. I have friends that homebrew that find lots of things "Good". Hell, Budweiser is "good" to them. That's OK and great, we're just on different ends of the spectrum.

We all have different palettes, which is great, but I think my fair share of complex craft beer has twisted me into expecting more from simple apple juice, yeast and sugar. I do not find any of those combinations better than what you can get from the store, not worse than EVERY hard cider you can buy, but for what we can get in Alabama and what I've made, nothing is as good as something like JK's Scrumpy. In all fairness to those that do, I'm not a big cider drinker. I started this endeavor to try and discover something that makes my dad say, "Ahh, now that reminds me of Normandy" <-- Not easy, especially when he wants sweet and carbonated.

KWKSLVR said:

Personally, I don't find store bought juice to turn into ANYTHING remotely good at all. Apple juice does not have a wide range of flavor to begin with, so it was stupid of me to not even think about what the finished product might taste like.

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Yes. I read a great article in Early American Life about the history of cider making. It is apparently more American than apple pie, and the article was my reason for getting started.

Among the wealth of information, it mentioned that when cider was popular (and being drunk by adults and children alike) only the best apples were used for cider, and a variety was preferred, especially including tart, nearly inedible apples. Of course, they also had the sweet ones. The article mentioned, which you would also assume to be the case, that since you don't see them before they're pressed nowadays, cider makers usually use the sub-par apples for their juice, and that cider is undoubtedly not what it used to be.

It may also be worth mentioning that if it weren't for the prohibitionist nut-jobs, cider would still accurately refer to the fermented drink as it does in the rest of the world, NOT glorified apple juice.

BTW, to all previous posters, I've taken the general advice to just let it sit through the smell. Mind you, it wasn't a matter of patience. I seriously thought it was infected. With your assurance, I'm letting it run its course this time and so far so good.

I too fell prey to graff cider tasting "good". Tried it with store bought juice because that is what they used - let's just say I never remade that stuff. It will get you drunk at least but the taste was ugh for me. Like seltzer low apple flavor.

I also have fermented regular AJ from the store and no matter what you do to it it just doesn't stand up to fresh pressed juice, which is all I will use now. The other stuff isn't fermenter worthy in my house.

In this case though, you can polish a turd. I have mde decent draft cider out of store bought by back sweetening with AJ concentrate. But again, that doesn't stand up to my draft ciders I make with fresh pressed. The best product I turn out is from taking frozen fresh pressed gallon jugs of cider and letting them half thaw. I use that concentrated "double sweet" cider to backsweetned and then I toss in sorbate and campden and keg it. It is good stuff. Usual ratio is about 2/3 dry aged cider to 1/3 double sweet. I make the cider so it has a finished abv of around 6% after diluting with the double sweet.

By concentrate, do you mean the stuff in the freezer section meant to be mixed with H2O or juice that's made from concentrate?

chalino said:

By concentrate, do you mean the stuff in the freezer section meant to be mixed with H2O or juice that's made from concentrate?

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for the cheap stuff yes. not bad in a pinch.

you need to sorbate and sulphite though, or you will have fermentation restart. If you need more details let me know and I can let you know how I have had success doing this. You can make it still like this, or carb it if you have a keg system or pastuerize

Read threads under Rhino Farts. The sulfur smell is a byproduct of the fermentation. Sorry if this had already been stated. My ciders usually smell like sulfur early in ferment but the smell disappears after racking and aging. Good luck!

Well the cider I've got going is doing well. I've been wondering about pasteurizing though. How much alcohol is lost doing that? And does it affect the flavor at all? I would be using a plate chiller.

If you are using stovetop pasteurization in the bottle...you shouldn't lose anything.