Refilling CO2 Tanks with Dry Ice?

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Derick_Z

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I made this post on another forum, but didn't generate much interest so I'm trying again here.


I'm looking to make the jump to kegging soon (when I get enough cash saved up). I've done a lot of planning and reading/research, so I think I'm pretty much ready for anything that can come at me. In researching prices for C02 refills, however, I've been disappointed and unable to find anything that doesn't seem exorbitantly expensive. What are the average prices nowadays? I'm only finding things from several years back in my searches. On to the point of this post, however..

I saw a YouTube video of a man refilling a soda-making tank by taking the top off the tank, crushing and weighing dry ice, then putting it in the tank and screwing the top back on. Obviously the lid has to be pretty darn tight to prevent leaks, but I was intrigued by the concept. I can buy dry ice here for a buck a pound at the grocery store, which would dramatically cheapen my refills. I know a bit about chemistry, and it does make sense that the ice will sublimate until enough gas pressure has been reached, at which point the remaining ice will melt into the liquid C02 that you get when you refill the tank professionally.

I'd likely start with a pound or two just to see how it works, but I honestly can't see any flaw. There's a safety valve on the tank, but I'll never need it because I'm carefully weighing the amount of CO2 I put in, along with the weight of the tank after filling. I know people will likely talk about how I'll introduce air to the tank when I open it, but I've done some research, and oxygen doesn't liquidate at room temperature, regardless of pressure. That means that the CO2 will liquidate (I believe along with the nitrogen), while the oxygen remains in the headspace under high pressure. If I vent the tank slightly, *most* of that oxygen should be cleared, and the liquid CO2 will boil to refill the headspace. Continuing that process should yield a result identical to purging a keg.

Does anybody have thoughts on this? I've scoured the web and haven't been able to find a single thing about it - either suggesting it or condemning it. I'm not sure if I've stumbled onto some amazing new concept or if I'm just being exceedingly dumb!

Thanks
 
I don't see why it wouldn't work but I think you'd have a hell of a time getting dry ice in a cylinder.

I have 0 practical advice or experience with this venture however.

I'm sure someone more knowledgable can give you pros or cons with it.
 
In the video he covered it and beat it with a meat tenderizer until it was basically powder from the looks of it. Then just poured it in with a funnel.

He said he's done it several times I think, but I really can't find a thing on it.
 
Um, either I'm not getting it or it's total BS. The amount of time and effort it would take to "pour" dry ice powder into a cylinder, why not spend the $17 for a real liquid refill? Is this guy taking the valve off of the tank to pour in the powder? That pesky valve and the 90 degree turn the powder would have to make might make the whole idea nothing more than a nifty way to get cold hands.
 
It only costs $15 where I live. Don't know where you did your research, but your reading the wrong info, imho. Co2 is cheep and over-pressurized exploding tanks do not sound fun...

However, I know people that carb beer in kegs with dry ice and that works out ok.
 
we bought pelletized dry ice to use in coolers to cool transmission fluid for derby cars. those would have no problem going into the cylinder. but a 5lb co2 refill for me is $8.50

BTW: the dry ice to cool transmission fluid was a bust it gelled the fluid
 
I really need to find a better supplier I guess.. maybe bite the bullet and buy the 20# tank. I was really trying to get 5# to go low budget on this, but I guess the 20 wouldn't hurt in the long run. I really want to avoid buying a brand new tank only to have to swap it out for some crummy one from my LHBS though! I'll be converting my old dorm fridge into a 2 keg kegerator with just enough room on the hump for a 5# tank, and I really liked the idea of having it all self-contained within the fridge instead of drilling an extra hole for the air and having a CO2 tank sitting beside it.
 
To answer your question, it is possible, but I think you would need to remove the valve to do it, and that can be dangerous itself depending on your skill and knowledge of compressed gas cylinders. You would need to measure (in weight) the dry ice, and not exceed the bottle rating.

That said, you should be able to find a used 5 or 10 lb bottle on craigslist for around $50... more if it includes a regulator.
Take that puppy to your nearest welding shop and exchange it for a new, filled tank (doesn't matter if it's out of date as long as it's NOT a rented tank) for exchange.
I pay $11 for each 5 lb exchange, and the tanks I get look brand new. I understand it's only $20 or so to upgrade from a 5 to 10 lb., and the fills are only a couple dollars more.
 
While I've never bought CO2, I do buy C25, which is a welding gas. It didn't matter whether I brought a leased tank or my personally owned tank - they just got traded out, an empty for a full one. The cost for a very large C25 is about $45 or so; this is probably a 35-40 lb CO2 equivalent. I fail to see how you can buy dry ice for less.

There is also the matter of taking off and putting back on the high pressure valve. Unless you have the specialized wrenches to precisely fit the valve, I used to do this for living, you're going to have some trouble even taking the valve off. And then there is the matter of correctly installing the valve plus the wear and tear of constantly taking it off and on. They're supposed to be taken off once every 5 years or so at a minimum. You're planning to do that for every "refill". Not smart.

Fooling with high pressure cylinders like this falls into the same category as +120 VAC electricity: Not something to be forked with.

Buy the gas, not the dry ice.
 
I know this isn't co2 in the video (co2 isn't flammable), but check out what happened to this guy that removed the valve off an oxygen tank. Just sayin... :rockin:

 
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Dry ice sublimes at -78°C at atmoshperic pressure. From what I have seen a dot3aa (is that the right standard?) cylinder has a lower working temperature of -20°C. I would be cautious of the cylinder getting cold and cracking due to brittle fracture.
 
I have a 5# tank and it costs $16 to refill at the local supply store. A 20# tanks only costs $19 to fill.

I'll be upgrading my tank when my EHERMS system is built. $3 more for 4 times as much? Yes please.
 
I know this isn't co2 in the video (co2 isn't flammable), but check out what happened to this guy that removed the valve off an oxygen tank. Just sayin... :rockin:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lw_fhNAIQc

Technically, oxygen is not flammable, either, nor can it "explode". It is an oxidizer, and will provide oxygen to a fire, but there needs to be a fuel of some sort in order to have such a thing happen.
 
Derek.
The prices fpr compressed gasses and the hazmat fees has risen astronomucally in the last 12 months. The current best price I can find around town is at a fire extinguisher service co. The welding gas places are just too expensive to fool with right now. Since a 5 lb cylinder will last a while I haven't had to fill any lately but am aware it is gonna hurt when I do. You can thamk mr Obama and the DOT for this little issue. Hazmat background checks are not cheap and every one is paying the cost of that due to 9/11. Sorry I dont have concrete prices, but I use non medical grade gasses because they are much cheaper than medical grade helium, argon or CO2.
Bob
 
I don't understand why the prices would differ so astronomically across the US. I guess some places just know they can rip you off. :(
 
Not to thread jack, but do any of you have an adapter to do co2 canister to co2 canister transfers? I have a 20#, 5#, and 4#, and would like to use the 20# to refill the smaller ones. Any idea if what parts I need?
 
acidrain said:
To answer your question, it is possible, but I think you would need to remove the valve to do it, and that can be dangerous itself depending on your skill and knowledge of compressed gas cylinders. You would need to measure (in weight) the dry ice, and not exceed the bottle rating.

That said, you should be able to find a used 5 or 10 lb bottle on craigslist for around $50... more if it includes a regulator.
Take that puppy to your nearest welding shop and exchange it for a new, filled tank (doesn't matter if it's out of date as long as it's NOT a rented tank) for exchange.
I pay $11 for each 5 lb exchange, and the tanks I get look brand new. I understand it's only $20 or so to upgrade from a 5 to 10 lb., and the fills are only a couple dollars more.

Im jealous, up here I've searched everywhere and the cheapest I can find is 40$ n change for a 5# and I just mean refill...
 
What about paintball? You guys have those stores around I assume? Wouldn't be too hard to addapt a large paintball co2 tank to your reg, and (at least around here) paintball refills are pretty cheap.
There is also fire extiguisher stores. Never tried them, but I understand they could be a good contact.
Good luck!

Rbeckett, where do you get your info? I don't see any evidence of price spikes due to any of the reasons you mention. Seems like local price gouging to me.
 
I called around to all paintball places here and they wanted $45 for a 5# refill. I might just break down and rent a #20 they rent them for $100 annually and cost the same to refill here.
 
Approx. $20 for 20# here in Jax, FL metro area. 4.95 for hydro test.
Helgat gas. For that price I am not gonna destroy a tank and try to beat ice into it.
 
Rbeckett, where do you get your info? I don't see any evidence of price spikes due to any of the reasons you mention. Seems like local price gouging to me.
I was a Hzmat certified driver and it cost me 100 for a state of Fl background check, and the hazmat fees at my local welding supply went from 3 to 12 dollars per tank. When I asked why I was being charged hazmat fees for non hazardous gas, they replied that as of the first of Jan 2012, ALL transactions would have a 7% hazmat fee with a minimum 1.00 per ticket charge. I understand Hydrogen, Acetyline, even Oxygen, but CO2 and Argon in addition to Helium, cmon guys that is just an excuse to exploit a profit and revenue stream. Their attitude was it you want it you will pay it. Now I use a mom and pop gas supplier and am much happier with the service, price and reasonablness of there fee structure. So no anecdotal info, real world "it happened to me" situation.
Bob
 
as of the first of Jan 2012, ALL transactions would have a 7% hazmat fee with a minimum 1.00 per ticket charge.

So delivery of large bottles to the retailer incurs a fee. Then smaller bottles are filled, and the cost is passed onto the consumer at a rate of 7% or $1 minimum per transaction? I still don't get how that pencils out to so much money in his area.

Approx. $20 for 20# here in Jax, FL metro area. 4.95 for hydro test.
Helgat gas. For that price I am not gonna destroy a tank and try to beat ice into it.
That sounds more like it.

Obviously the OP is being gouged. I feel for ya.
 
+1 to the replies that say this is dumb as ****. I can't imagine doing anything as dumb as this for any reason. Sounds like a good recipe for a Darwin award.
 
I know this isn't co2 in the video (co2 isn't flammable), but check out what happened to this guy that removed the valve off an oxygen tank. Just sayin... :rockin:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lw_fhNAIQc

This needs to be said again and again - these canisters are full of compressed air waiting to escape; in other words, they're BOMBS.

No one should be ****ing with these things if they're not licensed to do so, and no one should ever be screwing around with a charged cylinder
 
This needs to be said again and again - these canisters are full of compressed air waiting to escape; in other words, they're BOMBS.

No one should be ****ing with these things if they're not licensed to do so, and no one should ever be screwing around with a charged cylinder

Gotta second this.

Having worked with very hazardous materials, from radioactive to strong oxidizers to carcinogens to compressed gases, I wouldn't attempt this. I'm fully HAZWOPER, OSHA, HAZMAT, etc. trained. Not gonna do it.

There's a couple things that can go wrong with this method...

1. There's more pressure in the tank than you expect and when you start taking the valve off it pops off and hurts you. Valves can stick, gauges can be inaccurate.
2. You put the dry ice in, which then rapidly cools the metal tank, it pressurizes, then you move it. All of a sudden, due to the temperature, the tank cracks and sends shards of metal into your legs, arms, genitals, you name it. This can happen from a temperature difference (setting on a much warmer surface), the metal being too cold and below it's working temp, or just dumb luck.

For example, you can autoclave (high temp, high pressure sterilization) many flasks with liquid in them and set them onto room temperature counters hundreds of times. And then you get one that's got a weak spot, or you didn't let cool as long, or the liquid holds heat better than your normal liquid, etc. and you put it down and it explodes all over you.

You don't want that. Be safe, let a professional do it. Even if it costs you a little more. Saving $20 every 6 months ain't worth your life.
 
I’m doing it tomorrow and will also record it.I have a 25 kg CO2 tank, I have taken the center valve out and tomorrow with drop 5 kg of dry ice pellets in it .Because it is a BOC bottle which here in Australia no one will refill because it is owned by BOC,if I take it to BOC they will confiscate it because im not paying rent on it.
Was full lasted ages cant get filled anywhere so time to experiment.Ill link to youtube tommorow night if still alive :eek:
 
Technically, oxygen is not flammable, either, nor can it "explode". It is an oxidizer, and will provide oxygen to a fire, but there needs to be a fuel of some sort in order to have such a thing happen.

I always thought that was so cool that the oxygen is using the steel it's cutting as fuel. Commercial tanks can kill, stop being a cheap bastard and buy the 20lb tank. Also as a rule of thumb, the tank fill is cheaper than the handling charges. A 80cf tank of c25 is 40$ to fill and the 160cf tank is 46$
 
Well so far so good I have a purge valve on my tank that went nuts for a while. Everything is now sitting steady I will wait till the ice disappears from around the bottle before any further action is taken. Personally I don't see the panic I put co2 in a co2 tank end of story. Purge valve sorts rest out and in couple days should have 5-10 kgs of a 25 kg tank filled. As said I will post my you tube link about what and how I did it. My bottle is is my shed about 10-15 metres away from closest corner of house
 
Well so far so good I have a purge valve on my tank that went nuts for a while. Everything is now sitting steady I will wait till the ice disappears from around the bottle before any further action is taken. Personally I don't see the panic I put co2 in a co2 tank end of story. Purge valve sorts rest out and in couple days should have 5-10 kgs of a 25 kg tank filled. As said I will post my you tube link about what and how I did it. My bottle is is my shed about 10-15 metres away from closest corner of house

Well not end of story - you put extreamly cold CO2 in a CO2 tank designed for a specific temp. You likely went below the tanks design temp and with a steel (or al.) tank that can cause the material to become brittle and crack. That is some of the main points out of this thread. The other was removing and reinstalling the valve could also lead to mechanical damge that could lead to a failure. Thirdly since you are DIYing this your tank will not get inspected regulary by a qualified person or get its statutory hydrotests at the appropriote times which could result in a defeact not being caught and the tank failing.
Also how much dry ice did you put in there? You said 5 kg in your first post? Did you measure it?
Lastly what do you mean by the purge valve went nuts?
 
I saw a youtube video of a guy doing _____ . He didn't die so it is a good idea and I am going to do the same thing.......

Good way to get maimed or die. You might even save a dollar or two.

But then again this world has enough stupid people a few less wouldn't hurt.

http://www.darwinawards.com/
 
Well done and done bottle hooked back to brew fridge. Not dead maimed injured or hurt in any way. The way I saw it was because I could take Center valve out

image-1625429467.jpg

I thought its not going to explode just putting ice in it. It was getting everything back on that was going to be drama. Edit vid tonight show tomorrow will hopefully put to bed the sometimes uninformed comments. I am not condoning doing this in any way not do I want anyone to rush out and do it. I am purely saying it has worked for me and there were no dramas whatsoever. A lot if nerves yes but for ME it all worked out
 
... The way I saw it was because I could take Center valve out
What was the rest of that sentence?
I thought its not going to explode just putting ice in it. It was getting everything back on that was going to be drama edit vid tonight show tomorrow will hopefully put to bed the sometimes uninformed comments. I am not condoning doing this in any way not do I want anyone to rush out and do it. I am purely saying it has worked for me and there were no dramas whatsoever. A lot if nerves yes but for ME it all worked out

I agree it won't explode if you just put ice in it, but you didn't. You put dry ice in it, which is much much colder than ice. It is also colder than the design temp of the cylinder. That does not mean it will explode but the chance of it does go up. How is one huy "proving" us worng one time put to bed the uninformed comments. Most of the comments on here seemed to be pretty well thought through with some decent amount of information from industrial sources. The only uniformed info I would say is coming from you saying that because you did it once everyone else was wrong... but then you go on to say don't trust your results anyway.
 
I spoke to many REAL people not just Internet research and on advice received determined that the rinks were not that bad. I have worked in the water and sewer industry for years dealing with many, many under pressure pipes and vessels I do no want to start an Internet war. I say not to do it because the majority consensus is not to do it, so stick with that advise. I am but one man who wanted to try something.Feel free to go will the flow which is what I dont do . I mean I clearly am unaware of any consequences. And as I pointed out I cannot get this tank filled anywhere. I do not claim to be an expert but note do I claim to be man of no knowledge.I gave something a calculater go, I am just one person sharing my experience , not asking for negative derogatory comments for sharing something

Thank you
 
not asking for negative derogatory comments for sharing something

Sharing (and recommending) explicitly dangerous and stupid things such as this are generally frowned upon on this forum. There's a reason for all the hazmat fees, background check fees, etc. here in the US, you need to be a trained professional to fill a CO2 tank safely.

This reminds me of the thread where someone tried to convince us that bottle conditioning in Gatorade and juice bottles was a fantastic idea, even though they bulged considerably.
 
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