Wyeast 3711 French Saison

tesilential said:

Did you pitch a pretty good starter? Or did you just pitch a smack pack?

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Activator smack pack. 5 gallons of wort at 1.010 with a date of 6/11/11 = no starter required.

so you fermented with another yeast and added a smack pack in the 1.01 beer (no longer wort)? What was the OG on the original batch?

Jboggeye said:

so you fermented with another yeast and added a smack pack in the 1.01 beer (no longer wort)? What was the OG on the original batch?

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1.041 I believe.

pitching into an already fermented beer is tricky, I would have probably made a starter and pitched at high krausen. Still, it's hard to say how a yeast SHOULD behave in beer and not wort...

As for harvesting out of the secondary, in this case it's prob ok, BUT won't you also be getting yeast from previous pitch?

Jboggeye said:

As for harvesting out of the secondary, in this case it's prob ok, BUT won't you also be getting yeast from previous pitch?

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Almost certainly I figure.

Does 3711 need to be made into a starter or just the smack pack?

erikb said:

Does 3711 need to be made into a starter or just the smack pack?

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all yeast need to be made into a starter above a certain gravity/size of a batch. Making a starter is easy and makes a big difference in the quality of the beer.

Jboggeye said:

all yeast need to be made into a starter above a certain gravity/size of a batch. Making a starter is easy and makes a big difference in the quality of the beer.

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Thanks Jboggeye - Being a noob, can you tell me what size and gravity is the limit?

I would make one for anything over 1.04, but it gets more complicated. PM me with questions so as to not get off topic here. I love helping out new brewers, it gets me to look back at my own practices.

erikb, starters are extremely important in getting a fast fermentation start and having enough yeasties that they don;t stress themselves while fermenting and thus putting off flavors in your beer. It's a lesson i wish I had understood early in my brewing career. Last weekend I brewed a chocolate peppermint baltic porter with a starting gravity of approx 1.080 and pitched 2.5 liter starter (about 250 billion cells) I had fermentation within 4 hours.

Read up on starters here and use the calculator under tools:

http://www.mrmalty.com/

I gave up on re-pitching yeast that was anything but a starter in high krausen 2-3 times was all the disappointing I could handle. I have drop a stuck dark strong Belgian from 1.024 to 1.012 this way w/ 3711, if you have/can get another pack then try making starter this time.

runs4beer said:

I gave up on re-pitching yeast that was anything but a starter in high krausen 2-3 times was all the disappointing I could handle. I have drop a stuck dark strong Belgian from 1.024 to 1.012 this way w/ 3711, if you have/can get another pack then try making starter this time.

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Thanks for all the info folks. I RDWHAHB on this batch, and do it correctly next time.

petep1980 said:

Thanks for all the info folks. I RDWHAHB on this batch, and do it correctly next time.

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If you give that beer a good hard swirl and move to a warm location it may kick into gear again.

Meh, I think starters are unnecessary UNLESS you're using harvested / washed yeast or are paranoid about infection. I just pitched the inflated smack pack 3711 straight in a Belgian IPA (OG = 1064) and it started visibly fermenting within 8 hours & came out great. Fermented 2 weeks at 70F and FG dropped to 1005. Dry, hoppy, earthy/spicy and delicious. I've completed 13 batches and used starters in 2; I believe smack packs give you plenty of healthy yeast to pitch.

houndsbreath said:

Meh, I think starters are unnecessary UNLESS you're using harvested / washed yeast or are paranoid about infection. I just pitched the inflated smack pack 3711 straight in a Belgian IPA (OG = 1064) and it started visibly fermenting within 8 hours & came out great. Fermented 2 weeks at 70F and FG dropped to 1005. Dry, hoppy, earthy/spicy and delicious. I've completed 13 batches and used starters in 2; I believe smack packs give you plenty of healthy yeast to pitch.

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That's great you like what you made but you won't make anything commercial quality without using a starter with liquid yeast, I guarantee it.

i disagree. If the gravity's under like 1060 the normal size package of white labs or wyeast is about the cell count most people recommend.

edb23 said:

i disagree. If the gravity's under like 1060 the normal size package of white labs or wyeast is about the cell count most people recommend.

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You can't really make a blanket statement like that for all beers under 1.060; the packaging date and handling has a large effect on the viability of the yeast. Part of the reason many people make starters is to offset this decrease in viability, it's not just to make beers bigger than 1.060.

edb23 said:

i disagree. If the gravity's under like 1060 the normal size package of white labs or wyeast is about the cell count most people recommend.

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Well, this might need to be a new thread. edb23, open a new thread in this section with the quote above or ask what the threash hold is for requireing a starter when you want want to make the very best beer you can. If you are referring only to a saison with 3711 then yes a good beer can be made with out a starter but as the thread will tell you this a yeast of a different beast.

Ha i don't think i need a new thread, i make starters when i feel i need them taking viability and all that into account. I was just saying as a rule of thumb low/medium gravity beers do just fine without a starter, especially when you're using a thug yeast like 3711

For 3711 I agree, underpitching gets you more of the flavours you're after in a Saison.

Otherwise, I'd say there's a lot of threads here (as well as info on the interweb) that seems to indicate that viable cell counts are pretty important, backed up with a fair bit of science, competition scores, etc.

I may have to eat crow here and start using starters, but still believe that you can get away with not using a starter for a hard-charging and robust yeast like 3711.

My experience so far is that my saisons are better with a starter than without.

I cant understand how pitching a small amount of yeast is bad? Unless you weren't all that sanitary, then you want fermentation to get going asap so the bacteria dont have a chance to take over.

Hasn't anyone just pitched a small amount of yeast (say 1/4 of a wyeast 3724 packet) and gotten successful fermentation at the cost of maybe 2 more days for the yeast to build up?

Whats wrong with starting with a small amount of yeast?

^^esters and other aromatic compounds are produces during reproduction, but this wouldn't be a bad thing in a saison. Oxygen is usually the limiting factor for reproduction, so you would need to aerate more than normal if you rely on reproduction in the fermenter. If you don't get enough cells, attenuation may suffer as the alcohol level rises. I pitch smack packs and then harvest/wash the yeast. I only bother with lagers for starters or when I make some bigger beers.

First time using this yeast and I everything went off without a hitch. Pitched at 75f and signs of active fermentation began within 12 hours. I cannot wait for this baby to finish!

I brewed a 5 gallon batch of 1055 on 7/2/11 and by 7/9/11 it was at 1007. Beersmith predicted 1008 (as did the recipe I used). I've seen a lot of people say "this yeast seldom finishes above 1004." Do you think it's still going? I'm not planning to bottle for at least 2 more weeks, I'm just curious.

I've been fermenting this batch at room temperature (which in my house is 77F). I'm about to leave for vacation for a week and am pondering putting it in my chest freezer "cellar" (that also contains a secondary of EdWort's Haus). Thoughts?

Lukem5,

there are quite a few reasons why underpitching, even 3711, can be detrimental. Granted, this yeast is much more forgiving than most, and one can produce great beer by underpitching. (however, 1/4 of a pack and a two day lag is not great)

underpitching can cause:
a long lag time, which is bad for sanitary reasons. (my prefered lag time is around 8 hours, and that is with GREAT sanitation) Since we can't create sterile wort, and longer lag time will increase the bacteria count. In my experience with this yeast, with the same sanitation procedures, I have found that the "no-starter" beers have gone a little south after about 9 months. (just not as good as they were) but the "starter" beers just get better and better (2 + years so far)

underatenuation can happen, although we are talking about 1.005 instead of 1.002 in my experience.

head retention and good mouthfeel gets better with a larger pitch

The most important aspect, however, is flavor. There is alot of debate about what creates esters, and a lot of different reasons why esters and flavor compounds are created. (Jamil's yeast book has a ton of info on that)
I have never really believed underpitching is a good way to give esters- there are better ways IMO, such as temp control. (but this is a HUGE toppic and I'll leave it at that)
with my beers that I have underpitched (with 3711), the flavor profile was estery, but had other flavors as well that didn't belong. They were all good beers though.
The ones where I pitched a large starter had "fuller" esters and flavor compounds. they simply tasted better, rounder, complete... maybe a little more subtle but more "precise" peppers and fruits and tartness.

I can only speak through my limited experience, but I have made 10+ saisons with this yeast. But in that experience, there is no need to underpitch this yeast, and you will make better beer with a starter/good cell count.

I agree with Jboggeye opinions and will add only that controlled under pitching can thread the needle b/t a rich estery profile and off flavors but one must have a true handle on what the viable cell counts is...

Best evidence I can offer is this.

And that:

20% under pitching works well for me too

This will be my 5th or 6th different batch with 3711 and they've all turned out great.

I'm currently experimenting with this strain and my IPA recipe. Anybody have experience with 3711 and higher IBU's? Do they play nice?

mugglesport said:

I brewed a 5 gallon batch of 1055 on 7/2/11 and by 7/9/11 it was at 1007. Beersmith predicted 1008 (as did the recipe I used). I've seen a lot of people say "this yeast seldom finishes above 1004." Do you think it's still going? I'm not planning to bottle for at least 2 more weeks, I'm just curious.

I've been fermenting this batch at room temperature (which in my house is 77F). I'm about to leave for vacation for a week and am pondering putting it in my chest freezer "cellar" (that also contains a secondary of EdWort's Haus). Thoughts?

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Beersmith doesn't understand this yeast. My recipe was predicited to finish much higher according to beersmith, but it finishes right around 1.000.

If you're at 1.007, unless you have a ton of unfermentables, I'd say you're not done yet. And even if you have a ton of unfermentables, I wouldn't put it past this yeast to chew threw 'em anyway. This stuff will ferment a lawn chair if you can fit it in a carboy.

So has anyone found out any other information about this yeast, if there's possibly something to it beyond the S. cerevisiae? This threads great, read through the whole thing. I'm on my 2nd beer with 3711 and very excited to see how it turns out. All I did was 100% Belgian Pils malt, .5 lb of corn sugar and cascade hops. 1.062 OG. Pitched at 65 and it's risen to 80 over the course of a few days. Used some washed yeast from a previous batch which was a Petit Saison that came out great. I found it to be extremely floral like potpourri. I hope this one is more citrusy.

I was thinking I'd email them and ask if there was any little tid bit of fact or lore they could toss down to the cult of the 3711 but I'm lazy and haven't so anyone who wants to go for it. What was the name of the guy from wyeast who was on brew strong at nhc?

if there's possibly something to it beyond the S. cerevisiae?

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I emailed a friend that works for Wyeast awhile back and he said it was a pure strain.

Just sent a second email, but I do not think he works over the weekend. I will post his reply.

Mr malty lists the source as Brasserie Thiriez in France.


BW

Well, brewed a second time with this yeast. I used the recipe for NB's Petite Saison d'ete as a template for the grains and hopped exclusively with Bramling Cross (1 oz @ 60, 10 and 2 min). I'm trying to get something close to Brasserie Thiriez XXtra.

In the end, I'm hoping for a hoppy, session strength (OG 1.038) saison.

I concur with everything else said in this thread. Tore through the wort in basically two days. Hardly any krausen though. I figured with a fermentation this vigorous and 2 lbs of wheat in the grainbill it'd be explosive. I bet it was 1" tall max.

I wish this forum had a way to reply to a post directly under like BA does...I feel silly posting a reply to the second post in the thread on the 44th page...

I have used this yeast for a couple of saisons now, and just wanted to comment on the flavor...

Compared to the Belgian strain (Dupont yeast), it is a bit more tart and slightly citrusy. The spiciness is similar though. The Belgian Saison yeast is a bit more earthy in my opinion. It seems to flocculate very slowly, ending up in chunks kind of like what 1968 looks like after it is finished. Either way, it really ferments nicely - I appreciate a yeast that will take my beer from 1.050 to 1.000 in less than a week (true story).

Here is a reply from Wyeast:

I don’t have a ton to add to what we have in our description other than this strain is extremely aggressive. It has a very high alcohol tolerance and also is the most attenuative strain in our bank. Also, it is very very non-flocculent. It is not a top cropper at all and can be very hard to harvest off of a cylindroconical tank.

Hope that helps,

BW

ChshreCat said:

Beersmith doesn't understand this yeast. My recipe was predicited to finish much higher according to beersmith, but it finishes right around 1.000.

If you're at 1.007, unless you have a ton of unfermentables, I'd say you're not done yet. And even if you have a ton of unfermentables, I wouldn't put it past this yeast to chew threw 'em anyway. This stuff will ferment a lawn chair if you can fit it in a carboy.

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Well, a few weeks later and its down to 1002. I'm going to xfer to a secondary and wash the yeast (I would just bottle from primary but I don't have enough time to wash yeast and bottle in the same day).

Brewing a 15 gallon batch today.

12% Wheat malt
4% 80L
84% Rahr pale malt

24IBUs using Kent Goldings and Saaz

Went to pull a pint after being in Portland for a few weeks and it blew after only an ounce!!

On a side note, the Dark Belgian Hopworks has on tap right now is really good. One of the best Dubbles I have had on tap.

BW

This strain is off the chain!

Not yet 24hrs post-pitch and we have a full on snow globe of yeast.
I love it! Thinking about marrying it like pee-wee did on that one episode with the fruit salad....