Can gypsum go bad?

This sounds odd, but any beer I add gypsum to (my ipas) get the wieredest off flavor. Taste like what I imagine dirty feet soaking in beer to taste like.

This is only in my IPA. PH is on track. Yeast is fine. No infection. Its only this gypsum I add. Using pure ro water. I have been expeirementing with the additions a bit. Startdd with 5g per 7 gallons of finished beer, tasted terrible dumped it. I have troubleshot down to 1g per 7 gallons and its still there (although the sharpness from sulphates is damn near gone) and the taste is not nearly as bad as the 5grams from all of my expirements I've kept everything but gypsum controlled so I know its that salt. The taste seems to be a direct function of gypsum. So my question is can this stuff go bad? I know most everyone uses it in their ipas even the professionals. But I've never tasted this in any other beer. Even any of my other beers

Add a tiny amount of gypsum to a glass of one of your other beers and see if it develops the same flavor. I think I know the flavor you're describing and I never equated it to gypsum. I was thinking it was more of over hopping or over dry hopping. I've dumped 5 gallons of an IPA with dirty sock flavors in it only to have the second 5 gallons of the same beer taste incredible a few weeks later. Usually it's a flavor I equate to over hopping or dry hopping with Simcoe and it fades as the hops profile fades. The gypsum might bring that flavor out a little more, but I'd be interested in what hops you used and especially dry hopped with.

I think it is a fairly stable chemical compound so I doubt it has gone bad. Gypsum is chalk. Does your beer taste chalky? Have you sampled the gypsum out of the container?

Chalk is calcium carbonate. Gypsum is calcium sulfate.

I'm guessing that it is the interaction of sulfate with hops that is responsible - not anything happening to the gypsum. It's just calcium sulfate - very stable stuff. Your walls are made of it. I suppose it's possible that some mold has started to grow in it but then the powder itself would look or smell funny.

chumpsteak said:

Add a tiny amount of gypsum to a glass of one of your other beers and see if it develops the same flavor. I think I know the flavor you're describing and I never equated it to gypsum. I was thinking it was more of over hopping or over dry hopping. I've dumped 5 gallons of an IPA with dirty sock flavors in it only to have the second 5 gallons of the same beer taste incredible a few weeks later. Usually it's a flavor I equate to over hopping or dry hopping with Simcoe and it fades as the hops profile fades. The gypsum might bring that flavor out a little more, but I'd be interested in what hops you used and especially dry hopped with.

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I use simcoe a lot lol usually simcoe centennial and/or some Amarillo. Maybe this is the culprite

I've added gypsum to a beer that was too malty *post fermentation and carbonation* and the flavor developed strongly. I added it to a shot glass of my beer and boiled and it smelled like puke

ajdelange said:

Chalk is calcium carbonate. Gypsum is calcium sulfate.

I'm guessing that it is the interaction of sulfate with hops that is responsible - not anything happening to the gypsum. It's just calcium sulfate - very stable stuff. Your walls are made of it. I suppose it's possible that some mold has started to grow in it but then the powder itself would look or smell funny.

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I experienced this first hand on Saturday. I opened a previously-opened tub of wall-board compound (gypsum-based). I did a little stir and noticed that it was much darker below the surface, not white like usual. Then the smell hit me, sulfur, rotten eggs. Clearly, the sulfur-reducing bacteria had invaded the wall-board compound. I still used it though!

I would be surprised if that same activity could occur in powdered gypsum since it should take more water to foster the bacterial activity. Maybe there is enough moisture in the air??

As others have said gypsum is very stable. Bacteria and fungus cannot grow without water. The amount of water in the air is to small to support growth in a compound like gypsum. it is not hydroscopic so it stays very dry.

ajdelange said:

Chalk is calcium carbonate. Gypsum is calcium sulfate.

I'm guessing that it is the interaction of sulfate with hops that is responsible - not anything happening to the gypsum. It's just calcium sulfate - very stable stuff. Your walls are made of it. I suppose it's possible that some mold has started to grow in it but then the powder itself would look or smell funny.

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Note to self, stop posting after midnight.

Isn't sidewalk chalk gypsum?

Kaiser said:

Isn't sidewalk chalk gypsum?

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I guess subconciously I knew it was wrong last night and did a quick google. This is from my browser history. I searched "gypsum chalk" to see if they showed up in the same context instead of just gypsum . :smack:

[ame]http://www.google.com/search?client=opera&rls=en&q=gypsum+chalk&sourceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&channel=suggest[/ame]

Why bother "troubleshooting" your bottle of gypsum at all? Its less than $3 for a brand new bottle. Throw yours out and buy yourself a new one.

Kaiser said:

Isn't sidewalk chalk gypsum?

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Ha ha. Good one. Why yes it is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidewalk_chalk

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chalk

KuntzBrewing said:

I've added gypsum to a beer that was too malty... I added it to a shot glass of my beer and boiled and it smelled like puke

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Calcium Sulphate (gypsum) will dissolve and iononize partially in watery solutions, particularly when boiled. Then all kinds of reactions can occur in that mix, heat expediting the reaction processes. The Sulphate ion can be quite reactive and will bind to who knows what in that beer and create new molecules that don't smell so wonderful to us.

5 grams of gypsum in 5 gallons of wort maybe OK and do something right, 5 grams in an ounce of fermented beer is a whole different story.

Also, boiling beer doesn't improve its smell or flavor either.

I think modern dustless 'chalk' is sometimes made from gypsum but I just took a piece of the stuff I use to write what beers are on tap on the blackboard in the brewery and dropped it into some of my home made CRS and it fizzes so even if there is some gypsum in it there is also some chalk.

IslandLizard said:

Calcium Sulphate (gypsum) will dissolve and iononize partially in watery solutions, particularly when boiled.

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Unless you exceed the solubility produc (2.4 g/L) then it will dissolve and thus ionize completely. And it is less soluble at elevated temperatures than low.

IslandLizard said:

Then all kinds of reactions can occur in that mix, heat expediting the reaction processes. The Sulphate ion can be quite reactive and will bind to who knows what in that beer and create new molecules that don't smell so wonderful to us.

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What do you have in mind here? Boiled with hydrogen peroxide concentrated sulfuric acid is a very powerful oxidizing agent but those are hardly the conditions one finds in brewing. Sulfate should sail right through the kettle. It can be reduced by yeast to provide sulfur for amino acid synthesis but most of it will remain in the beer. This can be a source for jungbuket or skunking. It binds tightly to barium but we hope we don't have any of that.

Is that picture the head of a Varanid? Which one?

ajdelange said:

Unless you exceed the solubility produc (2.4 g/L) then it will dissolve and thus ionize completely. And it is less soluble at elevated temperatures than low.

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Are you a chemist?
My error. I forgot about the solubility of gypsum decreasing with higher temps, unlike most other compounds. I was replying to the boil experiment, and why it could smell bad.

Potentially there could be around 40 grams of gypsum in solution in a 19L batch (~5 gals) at 25°C. That's a lot of gypsum, way, way past typical mineral/trace content of water, and should be very detectable in many ways. I don't think anyone would like to cook or drink that.

ajdelange said:

What do you have in mind here? Boiled with hydrogen peroxide concentrated sulfuric acid is a very powerful oxidizing agent but those are hardly the conditions one finds in brewing. Sulfate should sail right through the kettle. It can be reduced by yeast to provide sulfur for amino acid synthesis but most of it will remain in the beer. This can be a source for jungbuket or skunking. It binds tightly to barium but we hope we don't have any of that.

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No, nothing that drastic, it is still a watery sugar solution. But a complex one, particularly after we add an active yeast culture to the mix. There is a good chance some sulphate gets metabolized by yeast or binds to other molecules. In short, something changes, and it may be as simple as it just having an effect on our taste buds.

It would be nice to know how the sulphate ion plays a role in all this, although even in small concentrations it seems to make a difference in perception of bitterness and in Burton-on-Trent brews (Palmer). For good measure, being a hop lover, I've routinely added a good pinch of gypsum to my wort, but I've always questioning its true usefulness or what it does.

I was more fishing for ideas trying to find possible causes for the detected (off) flavors in conjunction with still fairly low levels of gypsum per OP's observation.

In that light, boiling a shot of beer with a good pinch of gypsum is an extreme application and well outside the scope of beer chemistry.

Radioactive barium would be a concern, yes.

ajdelange said:

Is that picture the head of a Varanid? Which one?

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Yeah, it's a albino. Not sure what kind, perhaps Nile. He isn't mine, neither is the picture. I adore them.

IslandLizard said:

Are you a chemist?

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No. It's a hobby. Just as Varanid (and other) lizards once were.

IslandLizard said:

I adore them.

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They are pretty cool animals. I had a pair of Gould's for a while a Stokes', a Dumeril's and an Exanthematicus), kept a Niloticus (nasty thing) for a friend for a while, have been to Komodo twice and have had the thrill of catching Gould's in the wild (and one inside an office building). Now I have 2 dogs.