New Obsession: La Maudite (Unibroue)

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Baron von BeeGee

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I'm not much of a Belgian beer drinker (though I do like them), but after looking at the 4-packs of the Unibroue beers in the store time after time after time, I finally had to try one when they went on sale. I opted for La Maudite because it has a picture of a flying canoe (I'm fairly easy to please).

These are fantastic! I have no idea what I'm tasting in there...could it be grains of paradise (which I've never tried)? Wish I could describe the flavors better. The beer itself is 8%, but very nice body and somewhere around a red in terms of color. These really go down too easy.

I'd ask for a clone recipe, but after some significant fruitless searching on the web this doesn't look like one that has been successfully cloned. There were one or two recipes floating about, but no followups, and they didn't really look up to snuff.
 
They make some good beers. My favorites are Raftman and Ephemere. Some of their stuff is not to my liking at all though. I think Wyeast 3864 is what they use. There was a recipe for clone of one of theirs on recipetavern.com, I think it was for La Fin Du Monde.

Edit: I think that was the most dis-jointed, aimless post I've ever submitted. Another famous indian was Crazyhorse.
 
That Unibrou stuff has always struck me as being super-charged bad homebrew. They have a sickly sweet cloying consistency, which is about 1/10th of the way to a Trappist, leaving 9/10th to be desired. I always get the feeling that they aren't quite done fermenting, but as they are overcarbonated as often as not, I remain confused on the issue. Not a personal favorite.
 
Chairman Cheyco said:
They make some good beers. My favorites are Raftman and Ephemere. Some of their stuff is not to my liking at all though. I think Wyeast 3864 is what they use.
That seems to be the concensus, and I believe it is available April-June. I've also read it's quite easy to culture the yeast from their bottles.
 
I'm partial to La Fin Du Monde. I find all Unibroue products to be exceptional, despite the highly phenolic taste.
The unibroue 10 is another exceptional beer of theirs. I don't know if it's still available.

As far as I know they don't market themselves as "belgian style beers". So all I'm saying is they aren't trying to brew like trappists.
 
Belgian beers span quite a broad range beyond just the 6 Trappist breweries, but I may have made the assumption just based on the Maudite which is the only beer I've tried. Seems like I read that the head brewer (or perhaps original head brewer) came from Chimay, and that they referment their beers in the bottle in the Belgian style of bottle conditioning. La Maudite strikes me as a strong Belgian dark, perhaps given the spiciness. In any case, I'm no closer to finding a clone! :mad:

If I could clone worth a damn on my own I'd be optimistic. I might have to take a sample to the LHBS and see what their thoughts are.
 
I have been enjoying unibroue products for over ten years. It all started for me with Maudite. While the first thing that comes to mind with most of their beers is either belgian or french, they simply refer to their beers as different and totally unique to other beers. The Belgian influence is clearly evident in Paul Arnott's brewing style.

So with that said I think they have clearly made a nitch market by offering beers that they call different and unique by american standards. La Fin Du monde is cleary a tripple, and most of their other beers are "on lees".

If you like Maudite, you should try Ommegang Abbey Ale or Ommegang's Three Philosphers.

I'm rambling on like a fool now, so I'll stop.

Baron- Can you get Maudite in the 750ml bottles? That would be a great start for a clone as far as harvesting the yeast.
 
glibbidy said:
La Fin Du monde is cleary a tripple, and most of their other beers are "on lees".
My understanding of "on lees" is that it signifies bottle refermentation/conditioning, but I had never heard the term before noticing it on Unibroues. I consider the Maudite as a Belgian strong dark ale, or Belgian specialty. But yeah, I haven't asked Unibroue what they think ;)
glibbidy said:
If you like Maudite, you should try Ommegang Abbey Ale or Ommegang's Three Philosphers.
I have tried the Three Philosophers and liked it, but not as much as the Maudite. I'm not much of a kriek drinker, though I have nothing against them. I'd be curious to try the unblended version of 3P! I have not tried the Abbey Ale, but will grab a bottle soon.
glibbidy said:
Baron- Can you get Maudite in the 750ml bottles? That would be a great start for a clone as far as harvesting the yeast.
I haven't seen it packaged that way here, just the 4-packs, though I may have overlooked it. I did notice a nice little cake in my 12oz'er, though. I may just try to grab some 3864 since it's 'in season' at the moment in parallel with a bottle culturing effort.

But first I need a grist, and I have no real experience with these beasts. I was fooling around yesterday and I'll probably try something with some Special B and CaraMunich, and perhaps some chocolate for color. The spices are even more troubling, but I think I can get some decent advice from my LHBS on that front.
 
Baron von BeeGee said:
But first I need a grist, and I have no real experience with these beasts. I was fooling around yesterday and I'll probably try something with some Special B and CaraMunich, and perhaps some chocolate for color. The spices are even more troubling, but I think I can get some decent advice from my LHBS on that front.

I just cracked the first of my dubbel last night, made with exactly those specialty grains, a pound of sort-of-dark candi sugar, and Wyeast 1214 Abbey Ale.

I've not had Maudite, but if you tell me about the color and flavors you're after, I can compare that to the color and flavors in my dubbel, which used 8 oz each caramunich and special B and 1 oz chocolate.
 
Baron von BeeGee said:
But first I need a grist, and I have no real experience with these beasts. I was fooling around yesterday and I'll probably try something with some Special B and CaraMunich, and perhaps some chocolate for color. The spices are even more troubling, but I think I can get some decent advice from my LHBS on that front.

Here is a grist from a 5 gallon AG dubbel that I made a few years ago. I was trying to replicate a westmalle dubbel. I'd be happy to work with you on refining a maudite clone as I would love to make it as well.


2-Row Pale Malt 50.00% of total grist
Munich malt 21.00%
Belgian Biscuit malt 6.00%
Belgian Aromatic Malt 6.00%
Belgian Special B Malt 6.00%
Malted Wheat 1.00%
Belgian Candy Sugar 10.00%

Target Gravity 1.070
Actual Gravity 1.073
Volume Yielded 5 gallons

This is a start. I'm hoping there might be someone else out there who could provide some additional input. While I would consider myself a seasoned belgian beer drinker, I'm a total freshman when it comes to brewing the stuff.

After I migrated to 10 gallon batches earlier this year I promised myself I would start brewing belgian as soon as I got my gravity dialed in at 10 gallons.:drunk:
 
Thanks, guys. Sounds like a plan. I'll try to get a good flavor profile (perhaps compare it to some clone-able Belgians). Right now some of the spices are preventing me from making a good analysis of the grist itself, and I'm not particularly skilled at that in the first place. I was also three sheets to the wind the other night, which is never good for tasting notes.

cweston, Maudite is probably best described as a dark red ale in terms of color. I was waffling between roasted barley and chocolate malt in terms of getting the color right with an ounce or two, but I'm pretty sure I don't want any trace of roasted barley in the flavor.

I'm going to acquire by hook or crook some 3864 and give this a go probably in May when it's a little warmer here. I think it could be a fun "group clone" project for anybody who's interested.
 
Dark red is probably a good description of my dubbel color: I would probably have said "deep copper." It's definitely a little less brown and more red than I expected, and overall not quite as dark as I expected.

If I made that recipe again, I might up the amount of special B a bit, and/or cook the candi sugar a bit darker. I made it somewhere bewteen amber and dark, because I was a little concerned with getting too much carmel flavor and color from it. (And 'cause I'm basicaly impatient, I guess.) Now that I've tasted the finished product, I would like to have gotten a little more carmel flavor and color from it. (Not that I really care about the color--actually, this beer has the most gorgeous color of any I've ever made, even though it's not quite the color I was going for.)
 
cweston said:
If I made that recipe again, I might up the amount of special B a bit, and/or cook the candi sugar a bit darker. I made it somewhere bewteen amber and dark, because I was a little concerned with getting too much carmel flavor and color from it. (And 'cause I'm basicaly impatient, I guess.) Now that I've tasted the finished product, I would like to have gotten a little more carmel flavor and color from it. (Not that I really care about the color--actually, this beer has the most gorgeous color of any I've ever made, even though it's not quite the color I was going for.)
I was reading just last night in Beer Captured that candi sugar won't affect the color much at all, even though it might have a really high Lovibond rating...that it's more of a flavor thing (which seems to be borne out in your results). I haven't used it, but I'm pretty sure it would be an essential component of this clone (or some type of sugar).
 
Baron von BeeGee said:
I was reading just last night in Beer Captured that candi sugar won't affect the color much at all, even though it might have a really high Lovibond rating...that it's more of a flavor thing (which seems to be borne out in your results). I haven't used it, but I'm pretty sure it would be an essential component of this clone (or some type of sugar).

This is true. Sugar requires an extremely high temperature to carmelize. You would need almost equal parts of each (liqiuid & sugar) to achieve carmelization. At 10% of the total grist, it would be superfluous. The belgian candy sugar is going to contribute to a malty taste, and naturally increase the gravity as well.

Belgian Aromatic and Special B malts are really going to contribute to the deep/rich color you seek, as well as the malty taste.

The biscuit will primarily add color and body

I used the malted wheat to help with head retention :) and just cuz the belgians do too!
 
glibbidy, I think you're on to something. I went to the LHBS last weekend and picked up aromatic, special b, and crystal 40L (which they say is CaraMunich I...). While sampling a La Maudite, I chomped on the grains. I'm quite confident that aromatic is present. The jury was out on the special b and CaraMunich, but based on the color and getting that adjusted in Promash, I think the special b (at 120-130L) is the answer. For my first attempt I'm going with the aromatic and special b.

In terms of the base, I have some Pilsen the Kaiser slipped me, but I also noticed that this beer is quite cloudy and has amazing head stamina (insert obligatory reference here). So I'm going to divide the base between Pilsen and malted wheat.

Hops: I think Hersbrucker for the aroma will work, and I'll probably bitter with Columbus since I've got it and it's high AA.

Spices: Pretty sure there's some orange peel (I've got both sweet and bitter, probably go sweet first try), and in a sniff test in the spice rack while imbibing the beer I'm 90% sold on allspice instead of the more conventional coriander.

Yeast: I'll either purchase from Wyeast or attempt to culture from a bottle.
 
I get orange and hints of clove on this one. I think both of these are attributes of the yeast they use. Idon't know which strain they are using, but whatver it is, it sure is highly phenolic.
 
Apparently they have their own strain, though I'm sure it's derived from one of the Belgian strains. I might get one of the 750's and try and culture it since my LHBS doesn't carry it (though they'd probably order it for me).
 
La Fin Du Monde is one of my best friend's all-time favorites. It's gotten to where it's the only beer he buys for himself anymore. I've tried to brew a clone twice now and posted the recipes here at HBT. I've always thought it would be great to treat him to a homebrewed version.

Mine have both turned out well - just not like a true 'Fin'. I have cultured the yeast from their bottles, but I'm pretty sure they bottle with a different yeast than they brew with. I could be wrong on that. Next time I try to brew it, I'm going to use more of a triple recipe.
 
Rhoobarb said:
I have cultured the yeast from their bottles, but I'm pretty sure they bottle with a different yeast than they brew with. I could be wrong on that. Next time I try to brew it, I'm going to use more of a triple recipe.
My understanding is that they add more yeast at bottling, but that it is the same strain. But I'm not sure either...seems to be plenty of sketchy info on Unibroue. I actually haven't tried any of their other brews yet, but plan to.
 
Haha, the label on "Maudite" is my favorite label, by far, ever- like a canoe rowing over hell, or some-such.

Should we be able to figure out a good clone for it, and should I be able to obtain necessary supplies, do you think I could do a half-way decent job if this is the first beer I'm brewing? Or should I knock around with some others first?

Maybe this isn't the right forum for those questions? Sorry, am new.
 
P funky said:
Haha, the label on "Maudite" is my favorite label, by far, ever- like a canoe rowing over hell, or some-such.

Should we be able to figure out a good clone for it, and should I be able to obtain necessary supplies, do you think I could do a half-way decent job if this is the first beer I'm brewing? Or should I knock around with some others first?

Maybe this isn't the right forum for those questions? Sorry, am new.

Sure consider it a baptism of fire. :ban:
It won't be easy, but it will be worth it if you do it right.

Baron von BeeGee said:
Apparently they have their own strain, though I'm sure it's derived from one of the Belgian strains. I might get one of the 750's and try and culture it since my LHBS doesn't carry it (though they'd probably order it for me).

Yes I just heard recently that it is a propietary strain that they developed. I have a friend headed up to Montreal in a couple weeks on business and he has volunteered to swing by the brewery to ask all the right questions :) now as for as the answers go.:confused:

I am fairly certain that culturing the yeast from the bottle is going to be the way to go on this one.
 
Chairman Cheyco said:
C'mon up BeeG, my local beer-monger has a good realtionship with them and gets all the limited edition stuff. There's a ton of it.
You know how tempting that is! I would pretty much do it this summer no problem, but the Baroness is laden with Baron progeny. Maybe next year...I want to swing by Banff/Jasper and the old digs in the GP.

glibbidy, I'm super curious to hear what your friend finds out if he makes it by.
 
Yeah, some people really hate it. I didn't really like it at first, but then all of a sudden it blew my mind. There are some I still don't like all that much. One of my faves is Raftsman though, and the Ephemere fruit flavors. They totally have the aroma aspect of it nailed. Damn, I'm gonna have to go get some now! Oh well, the 750ml bottles have champagne tops so at least I'll be getting a couple more bottles!
 
glibbidy said:
Yes I just heard recently that it is a propietary strain that they developed. I have a friend headed up to Montreal in a couple weeks on business and he has volunteered to swing by the brewery to ask all the right questions :) now as for as the answers go.:confused:

I live quite close to the Unibroue facility in Chambly and odds are your friend will get a polite 'non, merci' to your request for a yeast sample.

Wyeast carries it commercially (W3864), why not make life easier and order some?

Tell your buddy to drop by the Brewery restaurant 'Fourqet Forchette'

http://www.fourquet-fourchette.com/eng/chambly/fourquet.html

and also

http://www.bedondaine.com/index_en.html

which is a new brewpub nearby
 
Mikey said:
I live quite close to the Unibroue facility in Chambly and odds are your friend will get a polite 'non, merci' to your request for a yeast sample.
I don't believe anybody is requesting a sample...the yeast can be easily purchased, as you indicate. It is also apparently easy to culture from the bottle, though not everybody is convinced they are the same strain (though I am). That is one of the questions that would be asked, though it may still result in a 'non, merci.' The implications of being able to culture from the bottle is that it would be available year-round, while the 3864 if only seasonably available for a couple of months.

That Fourget Fourchette looks amazing. My wife wants to take one last vacation before her due date and Montreal/QC are definitely on the list...that restaurant could convince me.
 
Baron von BeeGee said:
I don't believe anybody is requesting a sample..

I misunderstood the implications of the question, sorry.

The yeast is a proprietary strain with roots going directly to back to Belgium. Exactly which brewery depends on who you ask.

They use the same strain for bottling.

A friend of mine is opening a brewpub in downtown Montreal called 'Benelux', obviously featuring Belgian style beers. You'll want to check that out as well as the other world class pubs/micros if you come up this way. :mug:
 
I first tried Ephemere at Monk's Cafe in Philadelphia... I had no idea where it was from, who made it, or anything.

Then the first week of April, I went to Quebec City and stumbled upon the Unibroue rack in the beverage section of a supermarket. I wanted to try one of each, but I restrained myself and stuck to Ephemere :)

On my way back to the US, we also visited Montreal where I tried Blanche de Chambly. They are all great beers! I was really impressed, and now I'm on a constant search to find them here in PA.
 
Mikey said:
I live quite close to the Unibroue facility in Chambly and odds are your friend will get a polite 'non, merci' to your request for a yeast sample.

Wyeast carries it commercially (W3864), why not make life easier and order some?

Tell your buddy to drop by the Brewery restaurant 'Fourqet Forchette'

http://www.fourquet-fourchette.com/eng/chambly/fourquet.html

and also

http://www.bedondaine.com/index_en.html

which is a new brewpub nearby

Thanks Mikey, I will alert him to these finds.

As far as the yeast goes, I'll probably culture some from the bottle to try refermentation, and get some of the W3864 for primary when I'm ready to make this bad boy.
 
First off let me prepare you. My friend is not into belgian, or as he calls them weird beers. He considers any phenolic taste in a beer flawed. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Here is what he sent me today after his tour this week. take it wtih a grain of phenol.

---------SNIP>
i don't know why u would bother trying to replicate these beers. they ranged from mediocre to unsaleable. most of them were just awful, and all but 1 or 2 were highlky phenolic. one could make the excuse that "it's part of the style", but i really dislike phenolic beers. nonetheless, there is nothing "to style" about a phenolic pilsner. anyway...

the malt is canada malting, essentially identical (but cheaper) to the domestic malt you're getting ... harrington/klages blend. the specialty malts are hugh baird, which i think you're also getting . curacao orange is used in the blanche, licorice, anise, cardamom also used in their beers. hops are barely used, saaz, hallertau, golding, all typical of belgian beers. 4 diff yeasts are used for their various ales, 1 per brew, but the yeast used for refermentation may not be the same as the 1 used in primary. beers are centrifuged and unfiltered, the centrifugation prob removes the vast majority, then pasteurized. cane sugar to increase alc by .5% added with the "bottle" yeast, then stored 3 weeks at 25c b4 release. we can do the math later to determine the exact amount of sugar needed to recreate their carbonation levels.

the lagers were a little better. i had a perfectly nice pils at their restaurant, and an ok honey pils at the brewery, batch 1 on the bottling line as we went thru, so it was absolutely fresh, but i don't have anything nice to say about it otherwise. beers filtered thru d.e. and tunnel pasteurized
----------SNIP>

With that said I will be bugging him for additional help in developing a clone for maudite. Despite his disdain for this style, he is actually quite brilliant, and should be able to provide additional valuable insight. :tank:
Baron, I think we are getting somewhere with this.
 
Cool. I'm currently trying to cultivate the yeast from a bottle of Maudite. However, according to this information it may not be the primary strain. I might go ahead and order the Wyeast. The spicing will be hard to recreate, but there are lots of Indian groceries around here, so the spices will be cheap.
 
I'm waiting on cultivating the yeast from the bottle at this time. I'm going to look into this a little further before I order the Wyeast 3864. My friend indicated that they use at least for different strains for their brews, not including the one for refermentation.

Any verifyable data on the Wyeast 3864 as the same strain used in Maudite, or is it just non specific yeast.

Wyeast describes it as:
3864 Canadian/Belgian Style Yeast. From a Franco-Belgie Canadian brewery which produces many styles of classic Belgian beers. Mild phenolics, which increase with elevated fermentation temperatures. Low ester profile with a dry, slightly tart finish. Complex and well-balanced, alcohol tolerant. Flocculation - medium; apparent attenuation: 75-79%. (65-80° F, 18-27° C)

This conflicts with the information my friend obtained. I wonder if they start with the 3864, and then let the yeast take on the characteristics of the indivi dual beers by repitching in those specific beers. makes sense?:confused:

I'll consider borrowing my friends lab to do a little analysis of the yeast found in the maudite bottles, and compare that with the 3864 strain under the microscope.

Let me know if you know how one may be able to obtain the curacao orange. That's may be difficult for me to get locally even with a resource like the Brattleboro food coop.
 
I spoke with my resource in a little more depth today. While he was adamant about Unibroue using at least four diferent yeast strains for their products. We concluded that they use the same strain for bottle refermentation for all their beers.

He reported that he saw no belgian candy sugar in the brewhouse whatsoever, so we have also concluded that their beers are likely all malt, with some flaked barley wherever necc. ( He observed bags of it in the brewery).

Instead of procuring the 3864 strain I have decided to cultivate the yeast they use for refermentation and then use this yeast for primary fermentation, as well as bottle refermentation.

I'm going to work on a Grist over the next couple days and see what I can come up with, and maybe try to shoot for brewing this on Memorial day:rockin:
 
My understanding is that Unibroue just uses sugar for their beers instead of Belgian candi sugar. I've seen that referenced in a few places. My reculturing efforts are tbd...I'll probably be doing a spin of the Highland Gaelic and shoot for a Maudite-esque beer in a few weeks. I've got a grist put together at home I can post later.
 
I love La Maudite. As a matter of fact, it was the beer that opened my eyes past the typical american beers... The guy at my LHBS gave me this recipe and said that he tried it and it was very very very close to Maudite.

5.5 lb 55% Pilsener Malt
2.5 lb 25% Munich Malt
1.0 lb 10% Malted wheat
1.0 lb 10% piloncillo


1.0 oz 60 min Northern brewer (7% AA)
1.5 oz 30 min Saaz (3% AA)
2.0 oz 5 min Kent Goldings (5% AA)

Last five minutes of the boil

0.67 Indian coriander
Zest of 1 seville/sour orange or 1 regular orange plus zest from one fourth a grapefruit
0.25 tsp grains of paradise or black pepper coarsely crushed
0.25 tsp clove

The yeast he said he used was cultured from a bottle of maudite...

I haven't quite moved myself up to AG brewing yet so let me know if anyone tries this and it is close....
 
hey guys,

Im 95% sure that the yeast strain that unibroue uses is highly protected. I personally LOVE unibroue but from what ive heard that yeast strain was cultured from the wild and had to be worked with to tame it. Because of this, the original strain is filtered before bottling takes place, and a different, more neutral yeast strain is used for bottle conditioning.

The Wyeast canadian/belgian strain 3864 is pretty good. Ive used it in a AG triple i brewed. From what ive observed, to get the crazy complexity that comes close to unibroue, you have to ferment that strain at high temperatures, like 28 degrees celcius. I didnt ferment it that high so i didnt get the complexity, although one can taste/smell basic similarities to the unibroue strain. Still, i maintain that the 3864 is not the unibroue strain, even though its close. The flavours of the 3864 are not nearly as wild as the unibroue strain.

By the way, do you know the history? I guess the brewmaster is certified from traditional begian schools of brewing, which is where the tamed wild yeast idea comes from. I dont know where they got the strain from though (canada or belgium). The brewery began independant, then was PURCHASED by Sleemans about 5 years ago. Now, more recently, the Sleemans empire has been purchased my SAPPORO, so Sapporo owns Unibroue.... which sucks....

AND, dont bother saving your emply 750ml unibroue bottles unless you have mushroom corks... plastic champagne corks wont work because they are about 1-2 mm to small.... big suprise to me. And mushroom corks are so expensive!! To bad!!


:mug:
 
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