My first lambic - Uh, oh!

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ChrisfromAbby

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I completed a full turbid mash with decoctions about a week ago. I started the wort on Wyeast 3942 Belgian Wheat. Tonight I racked to secondary.

I have a Wyeast 5112 B. bruxellensis smack pack that I planned on using next.

However, I also cultured the dregs of a bottle of Lindemans Kriek about 2.5 weeks ago. It was going well and started to form a pellicle and I was excited about adding it to the mix.... Today I looked at it and there are 4 small well defined mold colonies growing on the surface! Now, usually were this the case with a starter flask it would only detour from the straight line to the autoclave long enough to empty itself in the drain! But, I got to thinking, "does it matter much?"

I'm not inclined to pour the starter in directly, but considered harvesting some of the deeper liquid with a pipette? What do you think? I mean mold (probably Aspergillus) isn't harmful, and I don't think the spores would penetrate the pellicle. Let alone, would it survive in the anaerobic environment?

Time isn't too critical here.... I could just reculture my starter and see if I can isolate the undesirables, then pitch when I'm satisfied I'm in the clear. What do you think?

Chris
 
Two things:

1) Is the mold in the starter of the Lindeman's Kriek?

2) I didn't think Lindeman's Kriek had viable dregs as they pasteurize it and back sweeten it with the fruit flavors.
 
2) I didn't think Lindeman's Kriek had viable dregs as they pasteurize it and back sweeten it with the fruit flavors.

Most Lindemans are pasteurized, but Cuvée René Oude Gueuze & Cuvée René Oude Kriek have viable dregs.

To the OP, I think you'd be fine just removing the mold from the starter and/or harvesting from underneath
 
For the record, even with some lambic dregs, this will not be sour. Your only pitching Brett which doesn't sour, and the Pedio or Lacto colonies in the dregs might be tiny, mutated or dead. Pitch WLP 665, 655, , 3278/3728 whatever it's numbered, or Bugfarm/Bugcountry. Then add dregs if you wish
 
1) Is the mold in the starter of the Lindeman's Kriek?

Yes, just on top of the pellicle that formed on the top of the starter.

2) I didn't think Lindeman's Kriek had viable dregs as they pasteurize it and back sweeten it with the fruit flavors.

Not sure... I had read somewhere that it had been done. Started up pretty quick.

Chris
 
...Your only pitching Brett which doesn't sour...

I respectfully disagree. In my experience pitching a sacch strain and then pitching a bretta strain WILL result in a sour beer. I have done this for the past three years and have great success. It is not the same as a beer that has pedio and/or lacto, but the sourness definitely comes through. I have found three-six months with sacch/bretta to be magic for my basement (depending on the grist bill). I have gone as much as a year and it gets more sour than my solera Flanders Red.

Chris,

Did you happen to take a gravity reading before you added the bretta? I assume with the turbid mash, you should have quite a few unfermentables left in the beer. It is definitely not too late to add the bugs that bellmtbbq suggest, as those would definitely round out the flavor of your beer.
 
All "sour ales" (according to BJCP guidelines) have to include either Lactobacillus or Pediococcus, and often include both. Check out the guidelines for specific recipe formulation.

As far as Brettanomyces giving off a "sour" flavor, this is possible, but not usual. Most types of Brett found in commercial beers and commercial yeasts (lambicus, bruxellensis, anomalus, claussenii, etc.) give off more of a funky flavor. You'll often hear of descriptions like of barnyard, horse blanket, hay, and other farmhouse-type adjectives for most Brett strains. Although some are more fruity than others, none of them have that classic sourness to them that you can really only get with using bacteria like Lacto and Pedio (or by doing a sour mash or using lactic acid directly).
 
All "sour ales" (according to BJCP guidelines) have to include either Lactobacillus or Pediococcus, and often include both. Check out the guidelines for specific recipe formulation.

As far as Brettanomyces giving off a "sour" flavor, this is possible, but not usual. Most types of Brett found in commercial beers and commercial yeasts (lambicus, bruxellensis, anomalus, claussenii, etc.) give off more of a funky flavor. You'll often hear of descriptions like of barnyard, horse blanket, hay, and other farmhouse-type adjectives for most Brett strains. Although some are more fruity than others, none of them have that classic sourness to them that you can really only get with using bacteria like Lacto and Pedio (or by doing a sour mash or using lactic acid directly).

I am well aware of the BJCP style guide's take on sour beers and view it as a starting off point for my "sour" beers. To be honest, I find the guide limiting and fall more in line with Peter Bouckaert's view on BJCP. For the whole, we limit ourselves by putting our beer in the little boxes outlined by BJCP.

How much experience do you have with wild fermentation that you can make the claim that one only gets funk from brett?

Your description of barnyard and horse blanket is only true for Brett. brux (Wyeast strain in particular). I have done three years of experimentation with various strains of Brett. and have gotten real mouth puckering sour from lambicus and claussenii WHEN in the presence of a sacch strain in the fermenter at around the six month mark. In particular, the WLP670 American Farmhouse Blend (farmhouse strain plus Lost Abbey's brett) has given me a very sour beer at over six months.

As I have stated, I do not get the same result as I do in my 59 gallon solara which has lacto and pedio or in my sours that I have made with a pure lacto culture or the sour mashes I have fermented.
 
weremichael is correct in that Brux is the barnyard/horseblanket strain.

However, brett alone will only create a minimal amount of acidic acid, and not enough to sour the beer. weremichael, if you are getting sour beers, I imagine your fermenter is infected with lacto/pedio, or lacto/pedio is in the dregs you pitch? Alternatively, some people associate sourness to Brett and think they taste it, but it is just the bitterness and brett combo.

ChrisfromAbby - if you want any complexity to the lambic, I would highly recommend using a multitude of brett strains and not just the single brux strain.
 
Levi, my fermenters could very well be infected. I use better bottles and clean them with oxyclean free and sanitize with star san, so I know that there could be various strange critters in my vessels. When pitching both sacch and bretta in a beer, I make a healthy starter of both to minimize the growth of such things. But after five months or so, a pedio bacterial colony could start up. I doubt it's lacto because I've made beers up to 25 IBUs. The thing is that I haven't had these beers go through the ropey/buttery (pedio) stage like my barrel has gone through. That is why I believe that the sour flavor is coming directly from the healthy pitch of both bretta and sacch. I don't know if it has to do with the bretta eating some of the dead sacch cells or what?
 
I believe that Brett C has a couple of strains of lacto in it and pichia so if you primarily use that, it might be where your sourness is coming from.
 
I believe that Brett C has a couple of strains of lacto in it and pichia so if you primarily use that, it might be where your sourness is coming from.

I think I read that about the White Labs strain, but it definitely does not apply to the Wyeast strain (which I have used). I've never researched the fermentation qualities of pichia outside of limited reading (Wild Beers mentions it).
 
Yeah I think it was based off research that Chad Yokobson did based on Brett C's inability to fully ferment/attenuate at high pH.. or something to that effect.
 
I picked up the Wyeast lambic blen d today. I figured for my first "wild brew" I don't want to take too much risk.

I racked into the carboy the other day, but have yet to add any bugs. Wil check the s.g. when I do.
 
Levi, my fermenters could very well be infected. I use better bottles and clean them with oxyclean free and sanitize with star san, so I know that there could be various strange critters in my vessels. When pitching both sacch and bretta in a beer, I make a healthy starter of both to minimize the growth of such things. But after five months or so, a pedio bacterial colony could start up. I doubt it's lacto because I've made beers up to 25 IBUs. The thing is that I haven't had these beers go through the ropey/buttery (pedio) stage like my barrel has gone through. That is why I believe that the sour flavor is coming directly from the healthy pitch of both bretta and sacch. I don't know if it has to do with the bretta eating some of the dead sacch cells or what?

"ropey" stage isn't a guarantee with pedio. It may or may not develop that.

Regarding IBU's and killing off lacto, I'm not sure of this, but I don't thing there is a 1:1 correlation with IBU and it's antibiotic impact. Also, I think lacto has a decent tolerance to hop's antibiotic nature.

I'd have to go re-read some, but my understanding is that brett eats the flavor compounds resulting from autolysis and creates new compounds. There would be no acidic acid created in this process.
 
Had to top up my airlock this weekend. There hasn't been much actvity in a while, although the fruit flies are still very attracted to this one so there must be some kind of out gassing. Anyhow, sniffing the bung gave me a pretty heavy "Band-Aid" smell. I hope THAT gets modified with time...
 
Lol, in my experience some bungs themselves have a smell of rubber Band-Aidyness. Maybe try removing the bung and take a whiff?
 
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