Spirit crushing defeat

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695fingers

695fingers

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At this point I feel as though I want to give up and throw in the towel. All but two of my batches have ended up with the same, nearly undrinkable off flavor. To me it tastes plastic/medicinal . . . my wife says it tastes soapy but in either case every beer ends up tasting the same after about the 3 week mark. Straight out of the fermentor my last few batches have tasted pretty good. But given time they all degrade into the same flavor.

So far I have been doing extract batches. My fermentation is temperature controlled and I am pretty meticulous with cleaning and sanitation. According to my local water reports my tap water has chlorine/chloramines in it. So after finding this out I treated all my water with Camden tablets. No dice. Same ruining off flavor. OK so maybe the Camden wasn't working correctly I thought. Next batch I use all distilled water. Errr wrong after 3 weeks same flavor.

Next thought was maybe there was some bacteria or such in either my auto siphon,hoses or bottle filler. I clean them all extra thorough and my next batch is a cider. Turns out great! Problem solved! :mad: Nope, brew up the next batch tastes great as its coming out of the fermentor and now . . . yep you guessed it same plastic/medicinal flavor that masks everything else.

I don't know what to do and feel like giving up at this point. This forum is awesome and I would love any advice that anyone has as to what is going on and how I can fix it.
 
Don't give up.

From John Palmer, "These flavors are often described as mediciney, Band-Aid™ like, or can be spicy like cloves. The cause are various phenols which are initially produced by the yeast. Chlorophenols result from the reaction of chlorine-based sanitizers (bleach) with phenol compounds and have very low taste thresholds. Rinsing with boiled water after sanitizing is the best way to prevent these flavors."

Do you use bleach?

Others may also suggest that the taste is associated with an infection such as brettanomyces. Any signs of an infection at all? What is your fermentation vessel?

Little by little, I think this site can help you break down your process and the possible source. Have you fermented in anything else and gotten the same taste?
 
Okay, you say it tastes great coming out of the fermenter and 3 weeks later it sucks. What do you do after the fermenter? Are you bottling or kegging or secondary?
 
Edit. Sorry -- i originally suggested using distilled water. I had the same issue. My wife even described a soapy taste too. Switching to RO water solved my problem.
 
Thanks for the replies.

Hello said:
Do you use bleach?
Click to expand...

Nope. No bleach just PBW and starsan.

Hello said:
What is your fermentation vessel?

Little by little, I think this site can help you break down your process and the possible source. Have you fermented in anything else and gotten the same taste?
Click to expand...

I have been fermenting in the same 6.5 gallon fermenting bucket. I have gotten the same off flavors except for two ciders which turned out pretty good. My next thought was replacing the bucket and auto siphon/tubing in case something had taken root that I haven't been able to get rid off.
What do you do after the fermenter? Are you bottling or kegging or secondary?
Click to expand...

After fermentation was done it was going into bottles. My totally awesome wife bought me a kegging set up for my birthday! So the last one went into a keg.
 
fuzzy2133 said:
Tubing is cheap not a bad idea to replace it. Any scratches in your fermentation bucket?
Click to expand...

No scratches that I can see or feel.

JBOGAN said:
What kits did you use?fermentation temps?Boil schedule?
Click to expand...

Mostly kits from some of the bigger online shops (NorthernBrewer, Austin Homebrew) and a batch from my LHBS. Along with being from different places they have been different styles as well. My fermentation temps have all been in accordance with the yeast used.I have an old chest freezer for temp. control. As far as the boil schedule they have been pretty standard. I have been doing full volume boils with late extract additions and adding the hops at the prescribed intervals.
 
695fingers said:
At this point I feel as though I want to give up and throw in the towel. All but two of my batches have ended up with the same, nearly undrinkable off flavor. To me it tastes plastic/medicinal . . . my wife says it tastes soapy but in either case every beer ends up tasting the same after about the 3 week mark. Straight out of the fermentor my last few batches have tasted pretty good. But given time they all degrade into the same flavor.

So far I have been doing extract batches. My fermentation is temperature controlled and I am pretty meticulous with cleaning and sanitation. According to my local water reports my tap water has chlorine/chloramines in it. So after finding this out I treated all my water with Camden tablets. No dice. Same ruining off flavor. OK so maybe the Camden wasn't working correctly I thought. Next batch I use all distilled water. Errr wrong after 3 weeks same flavor.

Next thought was maybe there was some bacteria or such in either my auto siphon,hoses or bottle filler. I clean them all extra thorough and my next batch is a cider. Turns out great! Problem solved! :mad: Nope, brew up the next batch tastes great as its coming out of the fermentor and now . . . yep you guessed it same plastic/medicinal flavor that masks everything else.

I don't know what to do and feel like giving up at this point. This forum is awesome and I would love any advice that anyone has as to what is going on and how I can fix it.
Click to expand...

Campden tablets will not rid your water of chloramines. Switch to distilled or RO water if you don't have access to well water. Give it another go.
 
NO, NO, NO. Campden DOES get rid of chlorine AND chloramines. That is the preferred solution if you are not using RO water. Please check the Brew Science sticky if you have questions on proper campden usage.
 
After reading through the thread I think I can answer the question

to me it sounds like you are having problems with residue from the sanitizers

I laugh when they advertise no rinse sanitizer. face it, if it is going on and killing stuff it needs to be rinses off. and that means HOT water

what causes a chemical reaction? agitation and heat, so what ever the process you use to clean and sanitize, we are going to start over

clean with dish washing soap and then rinse rinse rinse, then once you can no longer raise any bubbles, sanitize, I fill each vessel up and let them sit fo a while, no not 10 minutes more like an hour before I dump and rinse rinse rinse with hot water.
did you run brushes down the dip tubes in the kegging system? how are you cleaning the interiors?
making sure the dip tubes get cleaned and rinsed?
did you clean our the lines on the tap system?

If your beer is tasting good after fermentation but changes between then and dispensing, then the problem is more than likely in the methods of cleaning or the rinsing the containers you are putting it in.

good luck, it does not sound like it will be hard to fix
 
To the OP, you said your fermentation temps have been controlled and within the thresholds of the yeast, but can you give more details about what you are doing?

I ask because "soapy" is a flavor I have had before. I usually attribute it to a Yeast issue. A couple thoughts.
  1. Temp: It may say that you can ferment between 60 and 75 degrees, but you often find a different range of flavors at the high end than you get at the low end. Most yeasts seem to do best at the low end of the ranges.
  2. Pitch amount: If you are just pitching a single smack pack you might be underpitching. Actually, it is conventional wisdom that it is not enough yeast. You could try a starter which is pretty low effort at it's most basic and give big benefits for fast and healthy fermentations which can eliminate "off" flavors.

I honestly think an infection is not that likely.
 
Foosier said:
NO, NO, NO. Campden DOES get rid of chlorine AND chloramines. That is the preferred solution if you are not using RO water. Please check the Brew Science sticky if you have questions on proper campden usage.
Click to expand...

I mis-read my old notes. Campden tablets do remove chloramines. Very sorry.
 
bajaedition said:
After reading through the thread I think I can answer the question

to me it sounds like you are having problems with residue from the sanitizers

I laugh when they advertise no rinse sanitizer. face it, if it is going on and killing stuff it needs to be rinses off. and that means HOT water
Click to expand...

I had had that thought as well. The issue, in my head anyway, was that I would have to rinse with hot tap water and my local water has chlorine and chloramines. So I was not sure if that would help or not.

Foosier said:
To the OP, you said your fermentation temps have been controlled and within the thresholds of the yeast, but can you give more details about what you are doing?

I ask because "soapy" is a flavor I have had before. I usually attribute it to a Yeast issue. A couple thoughts.
  1. Temp: It may say that you can ferment between 60 and 75 degrees, but you often find a different range of flavors at the high end than you get at the low end. Most yeasts seem to do best at the low end of the ranges.
  2. Pitch amount: If you are just pitching a single smack pack you might be underpitching. Actually, it is conventional wisdom that it is not enough yeast. You could try a starter which is pretty low effort at it's most basic and give big benefits for fast and healthy fermentations which can eliminate "off" flavors.
Click to expand...

Most of the beers have been fermented in the mid 60's. I place the thermometer from the temp. controller on the side of the fermenter then place a towel over that.

I've been using dry yeast to date so I figured I would be getting enough yeast cell count wise. I had been just pitching it in but maybe rehydrating would help on the next one.
 
I disagree with this, my opinions in red

bajaedition said:
After reading through the thread I think I can answer the question

to me it sounds like you are having problems with residue from the sanitizers

I laugh when they advertise no rinse sanitizer. face it, if it is going on and killing stuff it needs to be rinses off. and that means HOT water

Do not rinse off sanitizers if they are contact sanitizers. Starsan for one is no longer working if you rinse it off and will impart no off flavors to your beer.

what causes a chemical reaction? agitation and heat, so what ever the process you use to clean and sanitize, we are going to start over

clean with dish washing soap I suggest keeping dish soap out of your process entirely. They have agents in them to reduce spotting when dishware dries. This could remain on your equipment even with thorough rinsing.and then rinse rinse rinse, then once you can no longer raise any bubbles, sanitize, I fill each vessel up and let them sit fo a while, no not 10 minutes more like an hour before I dump and rinse rinse rinse with hot water.
did you run brushes down the dip tubes in the kegging system? how are you cleaning the interiors?
making sure the dip tubes get cleaned and rinsed?
did you clean our the lines on the tap system?

If your beer is tasting good after fermentation but changes between then and dispensing, then the problem is more than likely in the methods of cleaning or the rinsing the containers you are putting it in.

good luck, it does not sound like it will be hard to fix
Click to expand...

You noted that you control your fermentation temperatures. I suggest remaining in the lower half of the range.

I would get a new fermenting bucket and try spring water to see if you can narrow down the source of your problem.
 
I would also try using a Brita filter or a pur filter for your tap water. I have done this for all my brews and have had no problems. All I have used is starsan for everything and again, everything has turned out fine.
 
Also keep in mind that PBW needs to be rinsed off after cleaning or soaking. Starsan should not be mixed more than 3/4's of the way up to the 1/4oz mark on the little built in measure on top of the bottle to 1 gallon of water,distilled is best. Just buy a gallon of distilled water & dump that amount in. don't use more that the amount I mentioned per gallon jug of water. Or 1oz per 5 gallons of water. That might cause a problem. Properly mixed,it's no rinse & breaks down into yeast nutrient. I switched to using local spring water from White House Artisian Springs @ 25c per gallon. The yeast seem to love it & it gives good flavors. And mid-60's is def a good temp for most ale yeasts.
 
Rinse with hot water

no mater what the sanitizer says

you need to rinse it to remove off flavors

no mater what the sanitizer says

Hot Water

Hot water helps to rinse it off and many chemicals are will vaporize at temps less than boiling

you can not argue with a proven method, you can disagree all you want, but proven methods work

rinse in hot water
such as bleach

hot water helps in chemical reaction

rinse in hot water

no mater what sanitizer says, leaving a residue leaves that chemical in the beer once it touches it.

bottom line is this, a chemical may not need to be rinsed to loss it effectiveness, but it does need to be rinsed to remove any taste it has

taste the chemical, do you want that taste in your beer?

rinse with hot water

what do you have to lose, you are not rinsing because of the chlorinated tap water, Hot tap water will vaporize chlorine from the water
and if not rinsing leaves a taste, maybe you should rinse to see if it works.

I do not have off flavors, one of my basic techniques I have used for over a decade is I always triple rinse with hot water.
 
Look at your tap water under a microscope. It's not exactly clean by the time it gets to your house. And rinsing off a no-rinse sanitizer kills any sanitization you had. Starsan never leaves off flavors in my beers. Off flavors are elevated levels of normal fermentation by products & water chemistry,mainly.
 
Why not try running a 'blank'?
Try a no-boil LME(hopped) + corn sugar, nutrient, distilled water, big starter, cool ferment, see how THAT tastes, then make your changes one-at-a-time.
Doesn't have to be a large batch, just a volume that minimizes headspace.
 
Do Not use dish soap!

Do Not use bleach if you can help it. It works, but with the sanitizers available today you don't need it, and it can react with some metals.

Do Not rinse Star-San......it doesn't leave off flavors. Hundreds of people use it without any problems.

Do rinse PBW then spray with Star-San

I'd get another bucket and tubing for starters.

Leave it on the yeast for 2 weeks. Racking too soon can cause some off flavors.

Fermenting in the low 60's is good for many styles so that's probably not part of the problem.

It's not uncommon for infections to happen after bottling if good sanitation isn't followed, and can take weeks to show up.

Start with a new bucket and tubing, then practice good sanitation. Use bottled or RO water and see if that clears it up.

Don't give up....we've all had issues at one time or another. Once you get it figured out, you'll be glad you stuck with it!
 
Filter your water! I used to have a similar issue, until I started filtering my tap water through a Brita filter.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Home Brew mobile app
 

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